[{"id": 0, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was the eleventh evidence session on the Children Abolition of Defense of Reasonable Publishment Wales Bill. Barry Hughes was there to answer questions related to the Bill. Six main topics that had been discussed or explained. The first one was how the Bill protected the children in terms of prosecutions. The second part explained the divergence between regions and the Bill's implication on England. The third part explained how the law was implemented, and the fourth talked about prosecutions and potential alternatives. Barry Hughes then further explained our-of-court disposals and responded to a specific infrastructure for these cases. In the last part, the meeting turned to discuss a number of unintended consequences related to the Bill."}, {"id": 1, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the efficacy of the law.", "answer": "Barry Hughes first stated that children had fewer rights than adults and therefore the law should be enforced to defend physical assault. As such social behavior was not available now, the law should change to reflect that. The discussion then turned to talk about the legal framework and its prosecution."}, {"id": 2, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Barry Hughes think about the legal framework when talking about the efficacy of the law?", "answer": "Barry thought that the legal framework would make things clearer for parents and professionals. But when it came to prosecuting, there was a degree of confusion and some cases were in the grey areas."}, {"id": 3, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What was the two-stage test during prosecutions when discussing the efficacy of the law?", "answer": "The first stage was to check whether there was sufficient evidence submitted by the police to provide a realistic prospect of conviction. Only if the first stage was satisfied, the second stage came to be considered, which was in the public interest."}, {"id": 4, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the divergence between the law in England and Wales.", "answer": "Barry Hughes indicated that the Bill would impact England and their people, although it needed a period. Moreover, Barry thought there was no cross-border issue from the potential legislation, and the draft changing to CPS guidance would not be helpful for scrutinisers to decide on the law in Wales."}, {"id": 5, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Barry Hughes think about the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales when talking about the divergence between the law in England and Wales?", "answer": "Barry Hughes concluded two kinds of implications. First, the Bill would raise awareness for people from England who travel to Wales. Second, people in other areas might reflect on this defense as they did to the drink driving limit in Scotland."}, {"id": 6, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Barry Hughes think about draft changes to CPS guidance when talking about the divergence between the law in England and Wales?", "answer": "Barry Hughes thought draft changes to CPS guidance would not necessarily be helpful to the scrutinisers, and simply wanted to take the present interest factors. Barry thought they needed to work for the principles of generality and a degree of specificity."}, {"id": 7, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about out-of-court disposals.", "answer": "Barry Hughes introduced their cooperated organizations the National Police Chiefs' Council and their work on the out-of-court disposals. Then, Hughes and Vikki Howells talked about the possibility of creating a body of out-of-court disposals specific to the Bill. Lastly, there was a short discussion about the duty around awareness raising."}, {"id": 8, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "How did the National Police Chiefs' Council help in out-of-court disposals?", "answer": "The National Police Chiefs' Council was responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals."}, {"id": 9, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Barry Hughes think about the infrastructure of out-of-court disposals?", "answer": "Barry Hughes thought that the infrastructure can be built for a range of out-of-court disposals. It might be built by the Welsh Government, the police, and crime commissioners."}, {"id": 10, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about unintended consequences.", "answer": "Barry Hughes explained a number of unintended consequences questioned. The first one was about the isolated incidences in Wales, and the second came to the targets in terms of performance measure. The following concerns included malicious reporting, the European convention on human rights, low numbers of prosecutions, and a shortage of registered intermediaries."}, {"id": 11, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Barry Hughes think about the targets regarding performance measure?", "answer": "Barry Hughes stated that they did not have targets and only prosecuted with reasonable prospects. As for the police, there were no targets for the police anymore, except for some individuals."}, {"id": 12, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Perfectly happy."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment\u2014how does that protect children."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form\u2014that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework\u2014that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the\u2014. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children\u2014some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If you take an example\u2014so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child\u2014a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road\u2014who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this\u2014we'll probably come on to that."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Shall I address that in terms\u2014? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is\u2014. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case\u2014the light smacking on the leg\u2014at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think\u2014and I think this is what will probably happen in practice\u2014that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is\u2014it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thanks."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this\u2014and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing\u2014that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 \u00b5g in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 \u00b5g. So, the same act\u2014. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 \u00b5g; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups\u2014Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences\u2014and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It would."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "My own personal involvement?"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Or the service's."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister\u2014I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago\u2014to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales\u2014well, and in England, actually, across the border\u2014will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in\u2014. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right\u2014obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers\u00a0of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet\u2014let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes\u2014I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence\u2014. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this\u2014. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying\u2014but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment\u2014who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If the defence argue that that act was\u2014. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's great."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see\u2014. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate\u2014. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes\u2014if it does\u2014for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement\u2014Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose\u2014at least, 'adequate' might sound a little\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Fit for purpose, yes."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second\u2014thank you very much\u2014in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will\u2014. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child\u2014reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales\u2014it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers\u2014and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution\u2014it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever\u201412, 18 months, maybe 24 months\u2014where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example\u2014the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask\u2014? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Sixteen."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which\u2014I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child\u2014say, a four-year-old\u2014in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are\u2014. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "A child can't consent to assault."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain\u2014. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far\u2014you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery\u2014splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again\u2014I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you for that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Vikki."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something\u2014. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say\u2014for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth\u2014we\u00a0 think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering\u00a0the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility\u2014that will fall to the police\u2014but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?"}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill\u2014how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved\u2014the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Somewhere within Wales\u2014Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question."}, {"speaker": "Vikki Howells AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here\u2014by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes\u2014if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence\u2014would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted\u2014so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution\u2014. It may be\u2014the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child\u2014in circumstances that would not have happened in England\u2014then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales\u2014this was the review in 2007\u2014it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales\u2014and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally\u2014you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets\u2014it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What about\u2014? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was\u2014much."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners\u2014whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Finally from me, therefore\u2014another issue, in a way\u2014the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law\u2014so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK\u2014that case law could come from other countries within the European Union."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "[Inaudible.]\u2014like common law jurisdictions would be."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about\u2014. There are over\u2014. From memory\u2014please never hold me to this\u2014but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute\u2014. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant\u2014what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything\u2014that would be a nonsense\u2014or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?"}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Barry Hughes", "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you."}], "query": "What did Karen Cornish think about a shortage of registered intermediaries?", "answer": "Karen Cornish thought it was a potential barrier but not a substantial barrier. The Ministry of Justice had taken action to deal with it and there had had a number of people in the positions. However, it was true that the work required larger recruitment."}, {"id": 13, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This is the fourth meeting of the design group. The group firstly introduced a prototype which contained the characteristics determined at the last meeting. Then Project Manager pointed out that since the production costs were over budget, they should reduce costs by leaving out solar cells, not using voice recognition and changing the button material into plastics. Then the group went through the evaluation criteria of the product. They thought the remote control should be fancy, innovative, easy to use, easy to find and spongy and evaluated the prototype with these criteria. When evaluating the project, the group considered that it was tempered by the choice of components and the price. Eventually, the group decided to redesign the product."}, {"id": 14, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about evaluation criteria of remote control.", "answer": "The group thought the remote control should be fancy, innovative, easy to use, easy to find and spongy and evaluated the prototype with these criteria. Although they had brilliant ideas and designed a best remote control within their capacity, they just designed a product of high quality but low acceptance."}, {"id": 15, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "Did the group think the remote control was easy to use when discussing evaluation criteria of the remote control?", "answer": "User Interface believed that voice recognition was hard to learn while Industrial Designer argued that the remote control had two parts and everyone could use the basic part. He also pointed out that an advanced user would like to explore additional functions."}, {"id": 16, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "Did the group think the remote control was competitive in the discussion of evaluation criteria of the remote control?", "answer": "Marketing thought that the basic layout was mundane but the voice recognition was brilliant. User Interface added that it did not have the digits but had all the features a normal remote control had. Industrial Designer agreed but pointed out that they just design the best product within their capacity. Project agreed and concluded that it was of high quality but low acceptance."}, {"id": 17, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "What did the group discuss about production costs of the product?", "answer": "Project Manager revealed that it would cost 22 Euros at current standards so they should leave out some characteristics that could not add much value. Since it could be dull and simple without those characteristics, the group supposed that the selling price could be raised to 50 Euros."}, {"id": 18, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "What did the group think about the reduction of production costs?", "answer": "Project Manager revealed that it would be over budget so they had to make some changes. He proposed to reduce costs by leaving out solar cells and not using voice recognition. Then User Interface supposed that the buttons could be made of plastics and Industrial Designer proposed to make the remote control straight and simple."}, {"id": 19, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's it's quite easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh the colouring ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yellow with uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} with with grey or black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh my name is not name"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well appar"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's fancy too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's very expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's not that important ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's c way too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the button we can use plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh m maximise the profits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or however you s pronounce that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not that fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a flavour as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That would have been a thrill ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So uh also a uh two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I could make it e easy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's w No , two and a half ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Darn . Nee ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A four and a three together ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And a three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I haven't said anything yet ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nee . I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Divided by four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I'm filling in a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , I th"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Was it one of our options ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No okay , but but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it's a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The remote control offers enough features ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , depends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's quite advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Signal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give a two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So high quality , low acceptance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "M about fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite ex"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's price , but w w"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and this one does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think it's worth its price ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's counting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "should be about one point s seven ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four six seven eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nine divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Better decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We had we had too little information actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Less . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The prices ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're tempered by that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we're a good team ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Response"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The response is very slow"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Draws ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's the thing itself , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To digitise them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I type faster than I write ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Economic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , or the other way around ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I missed it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "An object , yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Celebrate"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think we are uh ready ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see some action over there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Forty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how much time is left ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ten minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ten or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And no added value . At all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you see the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we're done here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer propose in the discussion of production costs?", "answer": "Since the prototype was over budget, Industrial Designer proposed to raise the selling price to 50 Euros. He thought it was not very expensive for a remote control that had this functionality."}, {"id": 20, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there an order ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We haven't decided on an order ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just put the cable in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it in the right thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , wait ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right here we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just move right on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . What's function ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh function , I see it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It should be {gap} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S That's on view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like in terms of"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Locator ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's for speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hu yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Completely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we get to design that too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was that was me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're not , no ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "s and it's usually that red"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It seems like that would be hard though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . I've never used one . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "zap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it'll be moving around ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do you mean the function ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The iPod knows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't have one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like a b"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You don't think so ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that's another thing they complained about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Channel selection ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But s yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's true , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it is only fun"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes we can try that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause we need to wrap up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting started by discussing the functional design of the remote control. Marketing gave the study on user needs and target groups. User Interface gave the presentation on technical effect design and Industrial Designer gave the presentation on working design. Then Project Manager initiated new project requirements brainstorming. The group had agreed on the on-call button design, DVD capability button design, power button design, and denied speech recognition design as well as mouse pad design. They would further discuss the function switch button and its compatibility in the next meeting."}, {"id": 21, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there an order ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We haven't decided on an order ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just put the cable in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it in the right thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , wait ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right here we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just move right on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . What's function ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh function , I see it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It should be {gap} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S That's on view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like in terms of"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Locator ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's for speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hu yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Completely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we get to design that too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was that was me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're not , no ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "s and it's usually that red"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It seems like that would be hard though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . I've never used one . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "zap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it'll be moving around ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do you mean the function ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The iPod knows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't have one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like a b"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You don't think so ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that's another thing they complained about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Channel selection ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But s yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's true , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it is only fun"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes we can try that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause we need to wrap up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the group discuss the functional design on the remote control?", "answer": "Project Manager stated the meeting topic on function design. Firstly, Marketing concluded a study on user needs, including buttons for channel selection according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each button, and suggested targeting on the nineteen to thirty-five years old age group to design functions. Next, User Interface presented on the technical effect on what functions users need and how to make the best functions for users. Then, Industrial Designer presented the working design, including input a channel or volume setting and output the location function to the television."}, {"id": 22, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there an order ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We haven't decided on an order ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just put the cable in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it in the right thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , wait ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right here we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just move right on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . What's function ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh function , I see it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It should be {gap} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S That's on view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like in terms of"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Locator ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's for speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hu yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Completely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we get to design that too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was that was me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're not , no ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "s and it's usually that red"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It seems like that would be hard though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . I've never used one . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "zap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it'll be moving around ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do you mean the function ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The iPod knows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't have one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like a b"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You don't think so ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that's another thing they complained about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Channel selection ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But s yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's true , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it is only fun"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes we can try that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause we need to wrap up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the group discuss the finder button and call button?", "answer": "At the first beginning of the discussion, Industrial Designer mentioned that it would be easy to implement something like a buzzer to trace the remote location. Project Manager suggested a two-part package - on one hand, users could click the button on the TV to send out the signal; on the other hand, the remote base could beep probably so that users could know where the remote control has gone."}, {"id": 23, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there an order ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We haven't decided on an order ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just put the cable in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it in the right thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , wait ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right here we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just move right on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . What's function ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh function , I see it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It should be {gap} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S That's on view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like in terms of"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Locator ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's for speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hu yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Completely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we get to design that too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was that was me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're not , no ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "s and it's usually that red"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It seems like that would be hard though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . I've never used one . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "zap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it'll be moving around ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do you mean the function ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The iPod knows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't have one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like a b"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You don't think so ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that's another thing they complained about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Channel selection ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But s yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's true , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it is only fun"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes we can try that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause we need to wrap up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did group members think of the speech recognition design suggested by Marketing?", "answer": "Marketing suggested the speech recognition design is for user groups aged from nineteen to thirty-five. Industrial Designer supplemented the feature design that if the TV is on and somebody says like one, then the TV would switch itself to channel one. However, Project Manager illustrated that considering the budget, to have the speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be expensive. And this ended up was commonly agreed by other group mates."}, {"id": 24, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there an order ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We haven't decided on an order ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just put the cable in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it in the right thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , wait ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right here we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just move right on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . What's function ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh function , I see it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It should be {gap} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S That's on view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like in terms of"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Locator ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's for speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hu yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Completely ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we get to design that too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was that was me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're not , no ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "s and it's usually that red"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It seems like that would be hard though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . I've never used one . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "zap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it'll be moving around ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do you mean the function ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The iPod knows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't have one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like a b"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You don't think so ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that's another thing they complained about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Channel selection ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But s yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's true , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it is only fun"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes we can try that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause we need to wrap up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the VCR / VHR / DVD capability button.", "answer": "Project Manager mentioned that the group needed to decide on the VCR capabilities and answered Industrial Designer's question on whether VCRs were the same across the world. So Industrial Designer suggested a whole different set of buttons for individual VCRs. Project Manager suggested DVD type if considering the target group as young professionals and teenagers."}, {"id": 25, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "Summarize the meeting", "answer": "The meeting covered the issues with different kinds of mics, progress on the Aurora project, effectiveness of spectral subtraction, adding parameter to spectral coefficient, and studying energy in the data, along with a short discussion on student housing. The team thought that the LDA was doing well for the Aurora project, where the team had made good progress. The linear normalization was not as good. For spectral subtraction, the team discussed recreating data with FFT of combining the Weiner filtering with the signal subspace. The team had not made much progress on using spectral coefficients for voice-unvoice. The current approach was to study the variance, so other ideas were suggested. The meeting ended with a short discussion on student housing and a graduate student's interest in studying energy."}, {"id": 26, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about microphone issues", "answer": "The professor pointed out that the lapel microphones were too close, so they were not good representative microphones. There was strong agreement that mics capture breath and other non-voice sounds since they were common."}, {"id": 27, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "What did PhD F think about computational resources?", "answer": "PhD F explained that he mistakenly had run his tasks on all the available compute instances. There was not enough computational resources going around. New computers were coming soon, but people would have to learn to share until then. It was important not to saturate computational resources. He also told the team how to properly queue tasks."}, {"id": 28, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "What did the professor say about the workshop?", "answer": "The professor recalled that at a workshop at Hopkins or Rutgers, twenty-five participants were running their tasks on twenty-five machines. Things would have been better if they ran tasks on their own machine. He was adding to PhD F's remarks on students in the team doing a similar thing."}, {"id": 29, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about spectral subtraction", "answer": "The team was doing spectral subtraction with both scaling and GGT bins. There were pros and cons to both approaches. The professor suggested a simple spectral subtraction followed by a KL transformation. He also suggested using JRASTRA's technique which relied on adding some noise to get rid of noise. The team also suggested VTS techniques."}, {"id": 30, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "What did the team say about the person in Grenada?", "answer": "PhD D brought up a VTS technique to do voice-unvoice which was developed by Jose Carlos Segura, who is a person from Grenada. The professor did not know him, but the inspiration for the VTS had come from CMU."}, {"id": 31, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "now we 're on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "wireless headset ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For you it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah . One ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hello ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "For your uh , channel number ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Session R"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "R - nineteen ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "there 's a c"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Just do P - make ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "s Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I can get some documentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "LDA . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No you didn't , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And uh , so ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "everybody does that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But u u Sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , there is no other difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but , uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I assume ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "without any change . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "It 's the new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "with"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "The new ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Maybe because of other changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Usual ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in this case . Unusual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Perfect to match ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because it 's artificially added noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But this is natural recording ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 've told me many times ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because it"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it may not be really a big different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It I Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That 's what"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then make the noise white ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who is doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I don't know him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "From C ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It had additive n"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's right"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Make it longer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Unvoiced . Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But Doesn't help ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "To know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wi - with what targets ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Phones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , d"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You did some experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Cumulants or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "cumulants , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Or m e"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "that one might be another thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "or , no ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , no"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Is that out of the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thirty - first ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Thirty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I hope ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Thanks Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You know , two or three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Well you get these complex pairs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "How did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Mostly they do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Oh yeah , digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You wanna go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}], "query": "What did the professor think about the Wiener filter?", "answer": "The professor could not see the advantage in combining the Wiener filter and the subspace. He later understood it would be a simple spectral subtraction, followed by a KL transform, followed by a Wiener filter."}, {"id": 32, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Are we going ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That sounds like a spy code ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mmm . OK . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Spikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Clicks ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I think it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Touching ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Let me"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And right now we can have up to six ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , we should do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Three wireds work ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That seems to be the key issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "SRI , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Should I call his office and see ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "He was in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "He wasn't there at cof"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . He might have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh well , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "just where we are . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's including digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nine two ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "e Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Misspelled ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I already had that convention"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so man So many ways that error prone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't know what they could be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So it sounds good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I actually gave"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Obscure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The channel u thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cu - Cube root ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm not sure about the term ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't know if I like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It depends on what meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . For security ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good point . "}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You could mail it to them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Get an a mailing address ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Equivalent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . Whole utterances only ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Whole utterances ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I know where you 're going ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think that 's the bad idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "W w"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Only if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "there 's a problem with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Having it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Giving it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "D you want me to grab one ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . That is true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great . Great , great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh they won't ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me the time intervals ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ah . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think Microsoft is"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sorry transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , God ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know how to notate that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sarcasm ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just for corrections ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Any sub - word level thing . "}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You probably won't listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How about them energy crises ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Done ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You don't have anything to say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": " "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Shall we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "There were quite a few . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , did you do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Burger King"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I never did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "do you want fries with that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But I feel like I could now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {pause}"}], "query": "What were the topics talked about in the meeting?", "answer": "The group discussed recording equipment issues, including the purchase of two additional headsets and the prospect of getting a new base station and a set of wireless microphones to replace those wired microphones currently in use. Speaker fe008 presented the current status on transcriptions, and explained procedures for cleaning up transcripts and ensuring they conform with set conventions. Speaker mn014 briefly described his efforts to normalize loudness levels across speech channels to distinguish between foreground and background speech. Finally, the group discussed legal and procedural issues concerning the provision of transcripts to meeting participants for 'bleeping out' any sections of speech they want excluded from the Meeting Recorder database."}, {"id": 33, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Are we going ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That sounds like a spy code ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mmm . OK . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Spikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Clicks ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I think it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Touching ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Let me"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And right now we can have up to six ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , we should do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Three wireds work ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That seems to be the key issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "SRI , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Should I call his office and see ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "He was in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "He wasn't there at cof"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . He might have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh well , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "just where we are . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's including digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nine two ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "e Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Misspelled ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I already had that convention"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so man So many ways that error prone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't know what they could be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So it sounds good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I actually gave"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Obscure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The channel u thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cu - Cube root ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm not sure about the term ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't know if I like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It depends on what meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . For security ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good point . "}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You could mail it to them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Get an a mailing address ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Equivalent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . Whole utterances only ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Whole utterances ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I know where you 're going ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think that 's the bad idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "W w"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Only if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "there 's a problem with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Having it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Giving it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "D you want me to grab one ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . That is true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great . Great , great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh they won't ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me the time intervals ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ah . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think Microsoft is"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sorry transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , God ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know how to notate that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sarcasm ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just for corrections ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Any sub - word level thing . "}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You probably won't listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How about them energy crises ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Done ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You don't have anything to say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": " "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Shall we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "There were quite a few . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , did you do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Burger King"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I never did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "do you want fries with that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But I feel like I could now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {pause}"}], "query": "What was said about the equipment?", "answer": "The group discussed recording equipment issues, including the purchase of two additional headsets and the prospect of getting a new base station and a set of wireless microphones to replace those wired microphones currently in use."}, {"id": 34, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Are we going ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That sounds like a spy code ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mmm . OK . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Spikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Clicks ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I think it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Touching ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Let me"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And right now we can have up to six ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , we should do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Three wireds work ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That seems to be the key issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "SRI , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Should I call his office and see ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "He was in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "He wasn't there at cof"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . He might have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh well , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "just where we are . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's including digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nine two ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "e Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Misspelled ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I already had that convention"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so man So many ways that error prone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't know what they could be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So it sounds good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I actually gave"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Obscure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The channel u thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cu - Cube root ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm not sure about the term ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't know if I like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It depends on what meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . For security ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good point . "}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You could mail it to them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Get an a mailing address ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Equivalent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . Whole utterances only ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Whole utterances ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I know where you 're going ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think that 's the bad idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "W w"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Only if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "there 's a problem with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Having it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Giving it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "D you want me to grab one ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . That is true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great . Great , great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh they won't ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me the time intervals ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ah . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think Microsoft is"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sorry transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , God ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know how to notate that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sarcasm ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just for corrections ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Any sub - word level thing . "}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You probably won't listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How about them energy crises ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Done ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You don't have anything to say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": " "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Shall we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "There were quite a few . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , did you do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Burger King"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I never did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "do you want fries with that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But I feel like I could now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {pause}"}], "query": "What did the team say about recording conventions?", "answer": "Efforts will be made to ensure that recording conventions are consistent across ICSI, the University of Washington, and SRI."}, {"id": 35, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Are we going ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That sounds like a spy code ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mmm . OK . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Spikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Clicks ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I think it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Touching ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Let me"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And right now we can have up to six ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , we should do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Three wireds work ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That seems to be the key issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "SRI , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Should I call his office and see ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "He was in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "He wasn't there at cof"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . He might have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh well , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "just where we are . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's including digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nine two ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "e Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Misspelled ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I already had that convention"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so man So many ways that error prone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't know what they could be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So it sounds good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I actually gave"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Obscure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The channel u thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cu - Cube root ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm not sure about the term ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't know if I like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It depends on what meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . For security ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good point . "}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You could mail it to them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Get an a mailing address ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Equivalent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . Whole utterances only ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Whole utterances ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I know where you 're going ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think that 's the bad idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "W w"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Only if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "there 's a problem with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Having it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Giving it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "D you want me to grab one ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . That is true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great . Great , great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh they won't ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me the time intervals ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ah . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think Microsoft is"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sorry transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , God ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know how to notate that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sarcasm ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just for corrections ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Any sub - word level thing . "}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You probably won't listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How about them energy crises ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Done ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You don't have anything to say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": " "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Shall we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "There were quite a few . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , did you do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Burger King"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I never did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "do you want fries with that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But I feel like I could now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {pause}"}], "query": "What\u2019s the current state of transcriptions?", "answer": "Approximately 32-35 hours of meeting data have been recorded, roughly 30 hours of which comprise non-digits recordings. The transcribers have begun performing digit extraction (see abstract for Bmr013) and should be finished within a few days. Approximately 11 hours of speech have been transcribed."}, {"id": 36, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Are we going ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "MR eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That sounds like a spy code ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mmm . OK . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Spikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Clicks ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I think it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Touching ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Let me"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And right now we can have up to six ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , we should do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Three wireds work ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That seems to be the key issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "SRI , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Should I call his office and see ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "He was in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "He wasn't there at cof"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah . He might have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh well , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "just where we are . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's including digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nine two ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "e Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Misspelled ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I already had that convention"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so man So many ways that error prone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't know what they could be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So it sounds good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I actually gave"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Obscure , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The channel u thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cu - Cube root ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 'm not sure about the term ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I don't know if I like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It depends on what meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . For security ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good point . "}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . I"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You could mail it to them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Get an a mailing address ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Equivalent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . Whole utterances only ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Whole utterances ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I know where you 're going ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think that 's the bad idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "W w"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Only if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "there 's a problem with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Having it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Giving it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "D you want me to grab one ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I could {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . That is true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great . Great , great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh they won't ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It just sends me the time intervals ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Ah . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think Microsoft is"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah exactly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sorry transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , God ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I don't know how to notate that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Sarcasm ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just for corrections ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Any sub - word level thing . "}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You probably won't listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How about them energy crises ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Done ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You don't have anything to say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": " "}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Shall we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "There were quite a few . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "Oh good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc F", "content": "Oh , did you do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Burger King"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "No I never did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "do you want fries with that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD B", "content": "But I feel like I could now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {pause}"}], "query": "What was needed for the transcripts?", "answer": "Efforts by speaker fe008 are in progress to ensure that transcripts are clean (i.e. spell checked), channelized, and conform to set conventions regarding the coding of numbers, acronyms, and explicit comments (e.g. door slams, coughs, and laughter). Subsequent efforts by speaker fe008 will be to tighten up boundaries on the time bins. Inter-annotator agreement was reported to be very good. Speaker mn014's multi-channel speech/non-speech segmenter is in use."}, {"id": 37, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The group members mainly talked about the details of the belief-net framework. They first discussed the way to make the definition of user and situation clear and set up the standards, e.g., user thrift, based on user's budget. Then they turned to the discussion about endpoint decision. They mentioned approaches including setting features/modes of like selling, fixing and exhibiting, and this inspired the group members to design user compatibility nodes of which value would depend on the user status and situation. They further discussed Go-there decision, which is related to the previous idea using the similar set of the ontologies. Finally, they shifted the topic to different probability computation methods for belief-nets and thought of solutions to issues with limited data annotation."}, {"id": 38, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about value for user and situation models.", "answer": "First, Grad E proposed a question about better discriminating the definition of user and situation models, and it was necessary to set values for the models. Then, they discussed the issues in terms of the user's running budget, which was vital for the outcome of decisions. They tried to design a set of terms to describe the user's financial policy, such as thrift, average, spendy, or more finer scale ones."}, {"id": 39, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "What did the group members think of the value of user budget when discussing value for user and situation models?", "answer": "The reason why they mentioned user budget was that they wanted to take this example to further discuss the value for user model. Also, user budget was an important factor for the outcomes of decisions. Then, they tried to decide which set of words could represent the budget better. Finally, they found that the words that could describe financial policy of users, such as user thrift, was appropriate."}, {"id": 40, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about Go-there decision.", "answer": "Grad E proposed the idea that Go-there decision was also worth thinking about. Professor B suggested that the decision could stick to the discourse properties as a placeholder. With regard to the lack of ontologies, Professor B thought that it could use the same properties like exhibiting and selling. Grad E doubted the choice of binary EVA values, but Professor B insisted that it was still necessary to make this choice. Then the group members discussed the layout of belief-nets, for example, the connection between Go-there nodes and other ones such as endpoints. And Professor B reminded me that the belief-nets should not have loops."}, {"id": 41, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "What did Grad E say when discussing Go-there decision?", "answer": "Grad E first started the topic about Go-there decision, and then proposed the question about how to represent discourse. Though Professor B insisted on using true-and-false values, Grad E challenged Professor B's opinion by taking examples about whether people really wanted to go some place or not when they asked how to get there."}, {"id": 42, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about probability computation.", "answer": "Professor B first emphasized the necessity of combining influences mathematically and asked Grad D to further explain the potential solutions. Then the students discussed the computation methods including weighted combination and mixture of experts, based on the mechanism of belief-nets. But there was no consensus on which method should be applied in belief-nets."}, {"id": 43, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Don't know . Anyway"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is your mike on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's funny ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Go there \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "m right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so there is this question about"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "right for each down here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "When . How ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Why ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I 'll let"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "we 'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here for example ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or cheapness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User thrift ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Welcome ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Thrift , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wow , that is simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Doesn't matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , and so this , oh that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I just accidentally Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh so we 're OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Something down here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So it 's true or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . No no no , EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Missed that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I thought mode , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "although that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um mode was um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mode of transportation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Also true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Did I or didn't I ?  Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Climb , rob ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "climb , emerge"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "this is ju"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I eh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , we"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What he has mentioned before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is now this endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We can just rename that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's a"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like they 're either true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The prosody ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "and they uh oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Therefore"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And , you know , possibly uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Less likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "some ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Accessibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "no , accessibility meant"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "given that he knows it , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if we Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "These three ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "are more likely to enter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Let 's say I put commercial ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas this is a"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "you know can go inside ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Could we just move it like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Let 's do it then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But I can just take this"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well this was"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "end point ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it 's the endpoint"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gotcha , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As related from the user model ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": " It 's underscore - E ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Wasn't this possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Good . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean but surely the user interests"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The user thrift , the user budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "somebody else has built this user model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh I see ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yea - n is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but uh so that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just as a mental note uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Budget ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Schedule ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Or fat user fatigue even ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Then we can make a user state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That don't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "that don't"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the right"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And so is approaching ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No we have to enter the park ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ge going through some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Right , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um so this might be What next ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Identified that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That definitely interes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The time of day ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . I see that could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be . Yeah . N"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Like situation traffic and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , the time of day ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess the final"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the Endpoint node ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I was just gonna"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "uh R recursive action ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure , if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That sort of comes from Keith ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wh - ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think so . S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not , a Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "To me ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's uh two things then ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Now . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but it might just"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It could be ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "could be"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "so this"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's too much ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Right , true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Two fifty - six ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is that what that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so I mean it can get big fast ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "EV - it 's the EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "No it still has three ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Since ta they will still have three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "EVA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so even"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "vers cuz uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "HTML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "but"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Darn ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Put it in your , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The what decision ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Um Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that all OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "And that one outcome , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y right . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's the outcome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "That 's one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Point three ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not one quarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Probability of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that"}, {"speaker": "Grad E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it could"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Based on training data , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough ."}], "query": "What did Grad D say about mixture of experts when discussing probability computation?", "answer": "Grad D first said that different experts were reliable in different situations and it was necessary to organically combine them to make the network adapt to diverse situations. The network could be divided into several parts and the network would decide which of the experts would be trusted in this particular situation. Grad D then answered other group members' questions about the layout of mixture of expert models and their detailed computation process."}, {"id": 44, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This was a functional design meeting. Based on the presentations of the user interface designer, the industrial designer and the marketing expert, the project manager concluded that the new remote control should be powerful, easy to use, fashionable, recognizable, only for television and Internet-connected. After discussing the industrial design of the product, the group reached the agreement to design an infrared-based controller with less buttons but whether the product would be wireless was still unsolved. As for the product appearance, the group decided to make the product look fancy and recognizable; nevertheless, they had different opinions on the colour of the product."}, {"id": 45, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about product requirements.", "answer": "Based on the presentations of the user interface designer, the industrial designer and the marketing expert which were about the product requirements, the project manager concluded that the new remote control should be powerful, easy to use, fashionable, recognizable and only for television. Furthermore, the remote control should use the Internet rather than teletext due to the spread of the Internet."}, {"id": 46, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the user interface designer and the industrial designer recommend to do when discussing the product requirement and why?", "answer": "The user interface designer recommended to design a Google TV controller because Google was very successful for its powerful functions and friendly user interface. Also, to make the customers able to use the product without learning the manual, the industrial designer suggested applying some international standards such as some pictograms."}, {"id": 47, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the Internet connection.", "answer": "The industrial designer expressed concern about how to connect TV to the Internet and the user interface designer said a set box would enable TV to surf the Internet. However, the technology was not very popular, which might be an obstacle for global usage of the product."}, {"id": 48, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the industrial design of the product.", "answer": "The group reached the agreement to design an infrared-based controller because it was cheaper than a laser. Secondly, the industrial designer preferred a wireless remote control as it was easier to manage but the suggestion was doubted by the marketing and the project manager considering the cost and user requirements. Another thing was about the buttons. The marketing advised having less buttons because only ten percent of the buttons were actually in use and people tended to zap a lot."}, {"id": 49, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Why did the project manager disagree with the industrial designer when talking about whether to have a wireless control?", "answer": "Firstly, the industrial designer said the wireless technology would cost 8 Euros which was higher than the manager's expectation. Secondly, whether the users would like to have a wireless control or not was unknown and the marketing would go to figure it out. Finally, having a link between the remote control and the television would prevent control from losing."}, {"id": 50, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the user interface designer recommend to do when discussing the problem of having less buttons?", "answer": "The industrial designer recommended mixing several functions in one button by having a switch menu. For example, the category the functions into several classes and link switch menu to this kind of this category of functions."}, {"id": 51, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about product appearance.", "answer": "Based on earlier experiments and questionnaires, the marketing found that seventy-five percent of the users thought most remote controls ugly. Thus, the group decided to make the product look fancy so that people would pay more. However, how to make remote control look fancy was a big problem because different people have different opinions about fancy. What's more, the project manager thought the product should be recognizable and attractive."}, {"id": 52, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "What was the opinion of the user interface designer and the industrial designer towards the product appearance?", "answer": "They thought in order to make the product look fancy, the product should have many colours instead of having one grey standard to meet different customers' needs."}, {"id": 53, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your talk ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three three , it's three"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "In one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you didn't save it maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's David Jordan . Course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Too great for email then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So powerful ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "many functions and very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To merge the two system huh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean this one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if we have very very good user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Powerful and easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Participant two . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What the cost is ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve , twelve a half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can go to the next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What is this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The wire ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just think of um the usability ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This you will see in my presentation then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The look , how it look like ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The manuals ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "manual ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Look fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Specially distribution , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "some people prefer black remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also f"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "remember it's twelve Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if we want to to do remote control"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "of the uh of real reaction"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Require lot of requirements ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A low cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's maybe more in browsing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but mayb"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the global usage ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Global ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if people don't have the technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it has to be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Min"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but just mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And that's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be simpler ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And Florent to work my subject ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the um session is closed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the project manager's opinions towards product appearance.", "answer": "The project manager agreed that the product should be good-looking but having many colours wasn't a good idea because it would increase the product cost. Also, the project manager thought the remote control should be marked with the image of the society so that one can recognize it at a glance."}, {"id": 54, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting started with the tabling of documents, followed by petitions by various members of the house. The petitions included help for groups such as environment-protecting groups seeking assistance from the Government. The meeting then transitioned to statements by its members regarding the current successes and failures of their constituents. Finally, members got to question the ministers on various issues such as scrutiny on spending and providing assistance, financial or otherwise, to groups affected by COVID-19."}, {"id": 55, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "What were the statements discussed by the members?", "answer": "Several members expressed their gratitude towards various groups such as first responders, working populations and different companies that have come together to help with the COVID crisis. Students whose education had undergone a radical change were highlighted and their fortitude appreciated. There was also a call to rally for disenfranchised groups such as rural residents, black lives movement and non-binary persons."}, {"id": 56, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "What was the Prime minister and Government accused of?", "answer": "The liberal of Government was accused of not allowing for adequate scrutiny of their spending. The Prime Minister was accused of locking down Parliament to avoid accountability, refusing to hold a first ministers meeting and refusing to negotiate to pass a bill."}, {"id": 57, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "Which groups did the members discuss to have been impacted heavily?", "answer": "Members advocated for aboriginals who faced police brutality, students for their disrupted education, indigenous and rural residents for lack of access to the internet and the black lives movement."}, {"id": 58, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "What was said about the Auditor General?", "answer": "The Prime Minister was quizzed on why he wasn't providing the money to allow the Auditor general to conduct audits on the Government's spending. The Prime Minister responded as to having increased the budget of the Auditor General's budget the previous year. The response was deemed unsatisfactory by the questioning party."}, {"id": 59, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "What was the issue around the CERB?", "answer": "Members quizzed the Prime minister on what would happen to the CERB as many of their constituents were depending on it. They stressed for urgency and clarifications for when it would be provided to allow for the affected population to plan for the future. Many people depended on CERB for their living."}, {"id": 60, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)", "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more.  We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)", "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success.  As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail.  I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)", "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. "}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer", "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet", "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)", "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh", "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)", "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison", "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)", "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)", "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu", "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)", "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant", "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)", "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)", "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly", "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, MadamChair.   Tudo bem? Tudo bom?  Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Bryan May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bryan May", "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Chen is next."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)", "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)", "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen", "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus", "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier", "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper", "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead.."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)", "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau", "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel", "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota", "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)", "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie", "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng", "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go now to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings", "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)", "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)", "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison", "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos", "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas", "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)", "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "The hon. minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel", "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)", "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino", "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon", "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)", "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned."}], "query": "Summarize what was said on the GBA+ analysis?", "answer": "A committee member repeatedly asked why a GBA+ analysis was not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs since this would have prevented rolling out inadequate programs for women. The quizzed party responded by pointing out to their successful efforts with some of the women and stressing that women were at the core of their decision making."}, {"id": 61, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting, which was held at the early stage of the project, focused on the product features and work division. Project manager proposed that the remote control had to be imaginative, trendy, user-friendly and international. Besides, the production cost should be no more than 12.5 Euros. In terms of the price, all members agreed that 25 Euros would be reasonable. They also clarified each person's duty. In the time remaining, the members did some tool training by drawing their favourite animals on the whiteboard."}, {"id": 62, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the product features.", "answer": "The remote control had to be original, trendy, easy to use, international and not too expensive."}, {"id": 63, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Why did Project Manager propose that the product should be international when discussing the product features?", "answer": "Because it would be sold in the entire world and everyone would use it."}, {"id": 64, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the conclusion of the discussion about the product price and cost as a part of the product features.", "answer": "The remote control would be priced at 25 Euros and the product cost would be no more than 12.5 Euros."}, {"id": 65, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the work division of the project.", "answer": "Project manager would manage the whole group. Industrial Designer would think of the functions of the product. User interface designer would concentrate on the users' requirement and the relation between the users and the remote control. Marketing would give interface designer and industrial designer some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have."}, {"id": 66, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What was the industrial designer's opinion about the job of user interface designer when discussing the work division?", "answer": "Industrial designer thought user interface designer's job was to focus on the relation between the users and the remote control and decide how the object looks \u2013 for example, where the button would be."}, {"id": 67, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can start ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So right now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "AMI yeah project ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will manage all all the group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can manage all this , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you have questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Not really ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . So the materi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well . You know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm the industrial designer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ok Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so really the remote control to be international ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And not too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . And uh simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , is it okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . It's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you think we have to do it now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want me to draw something ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay , let's go ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I will try ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Many {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's the same as mine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's the fat cat , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , hat ha rat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A rat ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mouse is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Just go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jus"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A duck ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A clown ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not so bad so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . I go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . A fish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You forgot the chips ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Have to be really careful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's your turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Of"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No problem , no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's done ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have break ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "discuss a little bit about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh my God ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , if you have questions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know what time is it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know your job ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What was the conclusion of the discussion about the difference between the industrial designer and user interface designer?", "answer": "Industrial Designer would design the functions and figure out the industrial way to implement it while the user interface designer's job was to decide how the object looked. In short, the two were like the inside and the outside."}, {"id": 68, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "Summarize the meeting", "answer": "The group discussed the first version of the Bayes-net used to work out a user's intentions when asking for directions from a navigation device. Three intentions were identified: Vista (to view), Enter (to visit) and Tango (to approach). The structure of the belief-net comprises, firstly, a feature layer, which includes linguistic, discourse and world knowledge information that can be gleaned from the data. It is possible for these variables to form thematic clusters( eg \"entrance\", \"type of object\", \"verb\"), each one with a separate middle layer.  At this stage, all the actual probabilities are ad-hoc and hand-coded. However, there has been progress in the design and organisation of experiments, that will eventually provide data more useful and appropriate for this task."}, {"id": 69, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "What did Grad B say about the structure of the belief net?", "answer": "It is necessary for the belief-net to have at least one layer of nodes between the features and the final output. This makes the structure more flexible in terms of coding feature-layer probabilities. "}, {"id": 70, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "What was the next step on features?", "answer": "The next stage is to refine the set of feature nodes and identify possible clusters. Although, in theory, traditional AI plan recognition techniques could also be helpful for inferring intentions, the schemas involved are too elaborate for this task. "}, {"id": 71, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "Summarize what was said on intentionality", "answer": "There was a demonstration of the structure and the function of a toy version of the belief-net for the intentionality task. The features nodes include things like prosody, discourse, verb choice, \"landmark-iness\" of a building, time of day and whether the admission fee was discussed."}, {"id": 72, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "How would the middle layer work?", "answer": "The values these nodes take feed into the middle layer nodes identified as hidden variables of the user/device interaction, such as whether the user is on tour, running an errand or in a hurry. These, in turn, help infer whether the user wants to see, enter or simply approach a building."}, {"id": 73, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "What was the importance of SmartKom?", "answer": "SmartKom, although it does not code for intentions as specified in this task, provides a model of the discourse, which can be useful for the detection of features through querying and anaphora resolution. "}, {"id": 74, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is that good ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Did we need to do these things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "in control here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You are in control . Already ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Certainly does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Johno , where are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Introduce ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you wanna try ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ach u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'd prefer not to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . Continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I was wondering ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Proceed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Is that better ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nice coinage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . We have a separate"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They 're separate things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "feature ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "their being nice w"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like you could have a p"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "or something like that . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Appreciate it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember w"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was a long time ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "There 's a lot of those ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Robert ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but not a landmark at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or it can be als"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , a big flat structure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Want to do Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No one knows it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Got it . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Stab at it . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's so it sort of is"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually , no , wait ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That was like our example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Navigational landmarks ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Navigational cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "navigational landmarks"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Prosody ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whatever granularity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or also unknown ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which is th Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Which things ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Wi"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That would be a cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "what 's the fastest way"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , correct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We can do a little demo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Observe nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Actually forget the verb ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "it 's starting to grow on me"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And the time of day is night ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And it 's night ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That didn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ach !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'd like to do that again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That all you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It loves the Tango ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Huh ! Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So , the real case ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And are th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {pause} i wi th"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I see . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pretty much the same ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were thi Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Another node on what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but I guess at some point we did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This is sort of uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it seems like in practice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Excellent ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . It 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The {pause} safety net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . This is fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . It was fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "this business ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "added this one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe you can read in ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um . He might know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No it doesn't , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think it did learning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But actually it had an interface ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "A lot of them were like , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Command line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The c"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is it XML ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I didn't think it did ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You can look at the text file ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But do you have it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh , yes I do actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let me see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yes , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh man ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Let 's see , come on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "God !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "the carriage returns on some of them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or whatever you call it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Anyway , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "As , like , lists of numbers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So theoretically you could edit that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah you could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And that might do ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The other thing is it is in Java"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Does he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't e"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The d the data tables ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "it allows you enter things well ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "To my understanding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . That would be awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you got more slides ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh that 's future future work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Very future ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Can't you have both ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You could . My first approach failed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I missed my turn ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's like yawning ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And this announcement was in stereo ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ha ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes . There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or you know something , other cues ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Opening hours or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh uh d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Precisely . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What do you mean by that ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "that makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm . Not direct ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Is that possible ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "They might have blown it up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well most of the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "What ? Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Their reputation is very bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Um , but they 're faster ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "New York Rhode Island ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 've done that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Boston ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd help it figure it out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Just kidding . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "so . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nah ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What 's the technical term ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . For which ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just observable nodes ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The features ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "evidence nodes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "confused ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Wait {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Quite possibly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Day after tomorrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Ben ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben , then ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ben ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Ah , interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Pardon me ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One of us , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Isn't that what it is ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I guess that would be reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm - yea - some ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but since {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alrighty ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That was that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Looks like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ma"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Switching o"}], "query": "What was said about hiring?", "answer": "Experiments for the collection of new data will start soon, since someone who will recruit subjects and help run the experiments has already been hired and the designing of the experiments has also progressed significantly."}, {"id": 75, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "Project Manager invites teammates to brainstorm animal characteristics on remote control function and suggest a reflection on user experience to improve technical function design. Price goal is 25 Euro, profit aim is fifty million Euro, and sales goal is four million. To summarize, the function design will be user-friendly and practical, in which the technical function will be portable phone based, hand-sized, light with limited but all-functioned buttons."}, {"id": 76, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about animal characteristics?", "answer": "User Interface and Industrial designer drawn dolphin and pig, which the two animals have smart and easy-to-draw features. Marketing suggested a horse and Project Manager thought they should design a remote control that's water resistant, strong and furry. Also he mentioned that remote control will be priced at 25 Euros and aimed to earn a revenue of fifty million Euros. Therefore, Project Manager encouraged teammates to reflect on experience when designing its function and format."}, {"id": 77, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "What did Project Manager think of the call button suggested by User Interface?", "answer": "The initial feature suggested by Marketing was easy to find and User Interface suggested a call button on the television. And Marketing wanted something that could vibrate or had a signal if it had no sound. However, they were not sure whether it is expensive to design it. So Project Manager suggested designing a magnet or portable phone based couch for the remote control, which people no need to walk over the TV to find it."}, {"id": 78, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the remote control size.", "answer": "Project Manager asked if the remote control needed to be made larger to avoid losing it. At the first beginning, User Interface suggested bigger, while Project Manager suggested a hand-sized device. Considering the light feature and putting noise on it, User Interface thought it would be feasible to make it mobile with a target price at 25 Euros."}, {"id": 79, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "What did Project Manager think of the cost constraints on the telly screen with the programming function?", "answer": "Since User Interface initially suggested less button feature on the remote control, so Project Manager suggested a telly screen like what phones have. And User Interface mentioned about the master control in electronic houses. However, User Interface thought it is a bit expensive to create this feature, but Marketing mentioned the similar screen in phones is in the acceptable cost range. So, Project Manager agreed and suggested further discussion in the coming meeting."}, {"id": 80, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "Why did Project Manager suggest having a clip on the remote control?", "answer": "User Interface reiterated that the remote control should have a robust and water resistant function. Marketing also mentioned a good tactile feel for the remote control function, which doesn't make hand sweat a lot. Therefore, Project Manager suggested a clip feature on the remote control so that people can clip it to their device."}, {"id": 81, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} um so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any volunteers ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I like its tail ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Horse ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And furry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two million ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was thinking that too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've always wanted that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like just to have a home for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bigger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hand-sized ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No it really wouldn't be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Select . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then use the telly as a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that what you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What was the word ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Furry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Water resistant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "User ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The working design is the structure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was in the email ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wrote down what mine were ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It said {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And working design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Marketing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about the project plan and target revenue?", "answer": "The selling price goal is 25 Euros and profit aim is fifty million Euros. Selling target is four million and the profit goal is fifty percent. So Project Manager mentioned that the group hopes to sell the remote control device internationally, instead of in Scotland or some European country."}, {"id": 82, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "Summarize the meeting", "answer": "The participants discussed results from the experiments that had been conducted. Switching between tasks in the same language had smaller errors than multilingual models. The professor thought that increasing the parameters of the net for larger multi-lingual models would be helpful. The team decided that they should experiment further with different linguistic features. They also discussed how they could speed up their work by relying on greater computational resources."}, {"id": 83, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the effect of training on different languages", "answer": "Using multiple languages led to more diversity which potentially hindered the model performance. The professor was skeptical about discussing the results since they had not received any good ones so far."}, {"id": 84, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "What did PhD D explain about the multilingual model?", "answer": "PhD D explained that the multilingual model, trained on French, Spanish, and English, was trained with higher frame rates. It has slightly poorer results when delta was not used. All in all, the addition of English did not seem to help the model."}, {"id": 85, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "What did the Professor think about the use of English?", "answer": "The professor thought that the model did not get hurt that much because of the removal of English. He also thought it would be worthwhile to train on one language and test on another."}, {"id": 86, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion on managing the complexity of the model", "answer": "The team discussed the size of the neural net, which was just a simple net. At the time, it had 27 outputs, but the professor recommended that they use a larger net, with perhaps more features. They discussed the effect that removing silent frames could have on the model. The professor recommended having a bigger hidden layer, though he did not think that would substantially improve performance. Currently, however, the team was facing computational limitations."}, {"id": 87, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "What did the team discuss about IBM computers?", "answer": "The team was concerned about the availability of computational resources. The Professor informed them that they had received two 550 megahertz processors by IBM. Though, they were originally expecting eight 800 megahertz processors."}, {"id": 88, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think I 'm zero ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you fix something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Five , five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hello , hello ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . That 's me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ? Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mike four ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Watch this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "era el cuatro ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yep , that 's me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , channel"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ooo ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or channel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I think I 'm channel two ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hold on . Hold on ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Let me give you a black screen ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Musical chairs everybody !"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "that language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So what 's th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we use the same language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "W which in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and the fourth is"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This includes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Relative . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ab - about how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty percent further ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Already , right right right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Tas - task data"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "we are u Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye Uh , more actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "One point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Task data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's multilingual ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "A part of it , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Downs Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's where he removed English ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I 'll get it for you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Not yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits on another language ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um What {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Bigger is worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "This is error rate , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ratio ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "No . {pause} No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Uh Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , OK , gotcha ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Still poor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well matched condition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Aurora - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the noise is different in th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , no ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We improve ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I di"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a trade - off ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh well , {pause} um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . True ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The combination , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Twenty - seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It - It 's the single net ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think they have one output ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it 's just one net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see . I see , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But including the features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which are PLP , or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mu ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No transform the PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "per"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well no ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I have one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Oh , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "We have one . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's on {pause} training ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "I don't understand also"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "ASP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It should be that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then they have a median filter of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Temporal and spectral ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Temporal LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , you would know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We c we can find out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It would do badly"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think we 're alright ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Computation ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It just died ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tonic ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "U Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Um It seems pretty fast ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For HTK ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh Training is longer ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And run it on several machines"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Aha !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off"}], "query": "What did the team think about delays?", "answer": "The team talked about delays when discussing the removal of frames that were silent. This could possibly improve model performance at the cost of a small delay."}, {"id": 89, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This is the third meeting of the design group. At first, Marketing revealed that ease of use, innovation and a fancy look and feel could be important to customers and the team discussed what colour and material they should use. Then Industrial Designer introduced three casing possibilities: uncurved, single-curved and double-curved. Next, the team talked about whether to use kinetic energy supply as an energy source. In terms of user interface controls, Industrial Designer proposed to add a scroll-wheel that could be integrated with buttons. Finally, the team summed up their decisions and Project Manager asked User Interface Designer to create a prototype next."}, {"id": 90, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "What's the decision of the whole meeting?", "answer": "The team decided to make a single-curved remote control with colourful rubber. It would be powered by traditional batteries and solar. They would also add a scroll-wheel with some additional buttons. In addition, corporate identity should be embodied so the colours could be black and yellow. As they decided not to use an LCD display, a regular chip would be selected."}, {"id": 91, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about remote control style.", "answer": "Marketing revealed that the younger target group preferred colourful objects and soft material. Project Manager agreed and added that the remote control should be light and not too slippery. Then Industrial Designer introduced three casing possibilities: uncurved, single-curved and double-curved. Considering that uncurved design could be too dull and double-curved design would make it difficult to use scroll-wheels, the team chose the single-curved design."}, {"id": 92, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "What material did the team decide to use in the discussion of remote control style?", "answer": "Industrial Designer supposed that natural feeling could be a factor. Marketing agreed and revealed that the younger target group preferred soft material but not necessarily a real sponge. Then User Interface proposed to use rubber, which was agreed by the whole team."}, {"id": 93, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "Why did the team choose single-curved design when discussing remote control style?", "answer": "Industrial Designer introduced uncurved, single-curved and double-curved design at first. User Interface and Project Manager thought that uncurved design was too dull and Industrial Designer pointed out that double-curved design would make it impossible to use scroll-wheels, so the team selected single-curved design eventually."}, {"id": 94, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about user interface controls of the remote control?", "answer": "Industrial Designer proposed to use scroll-wheels, which could be integrated with buttons. User Interface doubted its practicability and then Project Manager proposed to integrate a scroll-bar on the side to mute the device. As they would not use an LCD display, a regular chip was enough."}, {"id": 95, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "What did the team think about scroll-wheels in the discussion of interface controls?", "answer": "Industrial Designer proposed to use scroll-wheels integrated with buttons. User Interface doubted its practicability and supposed that a round button with four directions could be better. But Project Manager liked the idea of scroll-wheels as it might attract young customers and suggested that they could be used to mute the device."}, {"id": 96, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it much changes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Bongiorno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you should punish him ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just press the okay button , it works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wait uh wait up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not something dull ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But they like dark colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you said in the p"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just one slide back ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And it's uh colourful ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know the phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I can imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um thirty five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , that one , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've seen it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Apparently ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , Roo ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "could you do your presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Slippery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "s because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to grab it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So m Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It would be very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like the watch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , maybe m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You you walk"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And wha"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yes , it does ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll come to that later ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This will be the remote , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's do it's done before ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A volume , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , what about mute ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "About mute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And click it to muten the device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For you too , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It performs the action . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't think either ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I don't think you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On screen display . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kineti okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "too {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "r"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rubber with colours ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , spongy materials ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "evalu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's very unlogical ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the regular chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Standard ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um no . Nothing more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the energy , well , we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User interface um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , they can work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They cannot work with double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . W start with the casing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think they can . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Every device {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if not ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Battery and solar , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Grey and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Grey yellow , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Black and yellow , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , I've read ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A scroll-wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice recognition , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What what did you say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , b yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , the signs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think both ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the s uh the sideways ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or the the back . Or the back ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um Sebastian has everything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put it online ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}], "query": "Why did the team decide not to use LCD displays when discussing interface controls?", "answer": "Industrial Manager revealed that if LCD was used, they had to choose advanced chips. Project Manager thought it was within the budget and LCD displays could add extra high-tech feeling. User Interface then pointed out that they already had too many high-tech substances including scroll-wheels, voice recognition and a fancy look so they didn't need to use LCD displays."}, {"id": 97, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was a Children, Young People and Education Committee, and it was conducted in a question and answer format regarding the inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. They had discussions on whether employers understood the meaning of the Welsh bac and how to actually improve the employer's understanding of the Welsh bac. Then they gave some answers regarding how well the Welsh bac helped to prepare learners for employment. In addition, they had discussions on whether there was a difference in how the Welsh bac was valued by learners at the different levels that it was studied, and to what extent that universities understood the value of the Welsh bac. They also talked about how comparable the Welsh bac was to other qualifications. Then they discussed the idea of universal adoption. Last but not least, they shared some opinions on the necessity of introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification."}, {"id": 98, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about how much employers understood the meaning of Welsh bac?", "answer": "They all agreed that most employers did not have a clear understanding of what Welsh bac means or what it includes, which was a big problem not only for employers, but also for parents and young people. Though some small engaged employers did understand it, the vast majority focused more on running the business without a clear understanding."}, {"id": 99, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did Ed Evans (director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association) think about employers' understanding of Welsh bac?", "answer": "Ed Evans thought employers did not understand it, but they would appreciate it if they do. This was particularly true for his own sector, the civil engineering sector, and particularly contracting sector. Because pupils usually did not have a very strong academic background in this sector, and Welsh bac gave them the opportunity to not pursue that much of academic, but tested them in terms of the challenges. Therefore, the growth of the Welsh bac would be valued at least for this sector."}, {"id": 100, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did they decide on how to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac?", "answer": "They proposed that the voice of employers should be a key part of reviewing the qualification. Instead of colleges or qualifications boards doing this, employers themselves should do this qualification, which accorded to the vision of the Welsh baccalaureate, to improve skills for employment. They really should join employers and schools and education facilities together more in the future."}, {"id": 101, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize the views about how well the Welsh bac helped to prepare learners for employment.", "answer": "One thing needing to be cleared was that Welsh bac was a combination of qualifications, but not just one qualification. To develop the employability skills was obviously a key part of it, but not all of it. It obviously worked well to help prepare for employment, but was not for everyone, because some people had to do the other things. It helped prepare some people, such as the A level students for university, but did not help health and social care people become more skilled and employable."}, {"id": 102, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize Kay Martin (principal of Cardiff and Vale College) opinion on how well the Welsh bac helped to prepare learners for employment.", "answer": "Kay Martin agreed with other people's opinion. They tried their best to help learners to develop skills and employable people. Welsh bac worked well for preparing employment for some people, but not for everybody. Because some people came to school with very few GCSAs, or were lacking literacy or numeracy skills. Kay Martin thought this needed to be reviewed, to look at how they could actually make skilled and employable people."}, {"id": 103, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize Dafydd Evans' (chair of ColegauCymru) and Nick Brazil's (deputy principal) opinion on how well the Welsh bac helped to prepare for employment?", "answer": "Dafydd Evans though that one of the problems was that there were a number of priorities. For example, there were a number of students who needed to resit their GCSE. It was important for everybody to get a C grade in those core subjects, but that would take some time from them teaching young people. Therefore, there were fewer and fewer doing level 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they were resitting their GCSEs. Nick Brazil added that Welsh bac was a combination of qualifications, and developing the employment was one of the key parts, but not all of it."}, {"id": 104, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize the views to what extent they believe that universities understood the value of the Welsh bac.", "answer": "They thought most universities did not understand, based on some experience they had with some of their learners that went to Russell Group universities. But this depended on the admission tutors and the areas that they were going. Some areas valued it more, but some others did not."}, {"id": 105, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did Nick Brazil (deputy principal) think about to what extent that universities understood the value of the Welsh bac?", "answer": "Nick Brazil proposed an example of the institution himself was in. They had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. 50 percent of those Russell Group universities did not value Welsh bac for sure. But there were some offering an option with the Welsh bac, and those said it was on top of three A2 level grades."}, {"id": 106, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What was the situation in north Wales when discussing to what extent that universities understood the value of the Welsh bac?", "answer": "Welsh universities were much more willing to recognize the bac. Therefore, it was not a huge problem there. However, students who were looking to go out to universities in England encountered some problems. But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there was no problem."}, {"id": 107, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "Summarize their opinions on introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac.", "answer": "They thought that a lot of skills and challenges that were done within the Welsh bac were very similar with the vocational qualification. Therefore, a number of those staff had already got those skills. Besides, for the vocational lecturers to do that, they had invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and got positive outcomes of the Welsh bac, which had been an intensive staff development process."}, {"id": 108, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did Dafydd Evans (chair of ColegauCymru) think of introducing a specialist teacher training qualification?", "answer": "Dafydd Evans thought that if it were going to be a success, it would be contextualised. For the vocational lecturers to do that, they had to invest heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac. And this had been an intensive staff development process."}, {"id": 109, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Gr\u0175p Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru\u00a0would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac\u00a0there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac\u00a0means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac\u00a0is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac\u00a0at present."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Which is a big problem."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues\u00a0within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly\u00a0meet with\u2014employers\u2014and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require\u2014the Welsh bac\u2014to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within\u00a0those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac\u00a0initially, but the Welsh bac\u00a0has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the\u00a0year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand\u00a0the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications\u00a0that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Kay, is that your experience?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications.\u00a0But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they\u00a0want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Fine."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "\u2014just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular\u2014the civil engineering sector\u2014and particularly the\u00a0contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to\u2014. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and\u00a0supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me\u2014that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would\u00a0be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within\u00a0that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications\u00a0board, I think\u00a0the employers\u2014. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the\u00a0vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate\u2014that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes, it's no problem."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in\u00a0my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity\u2014. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more\u00a0structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit\u2014we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we\u00a0join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days\u2014they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, do we get rid of it?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac\u2014I think when we go back a number of years\u2014was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers\u2014. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and\u00a0I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said\u2014that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills.\u00a0However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools\u2014well, and indeed colleges\u2014might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs\u2014in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a\u00a0C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow\u2014no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector\u2014. We've given priority to GCSE\u00a0resits\u00a0rather than doing the Welsh bac\u00a0at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification\u2014it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac\u2014for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well\u2014that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes\u2014and we all get funded on the outcomes\u2014that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh\u2014I thought that's something that we need to think about."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people\u2014the A-level students for university\u2014but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Great advocates."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "\u2014and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then\u2014'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges,\u00a0but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented\u2014we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that\u00a0have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac\u2014normally."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us\u2014certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners\u2014that a number of them have come from school and\u00a0probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do\u2014think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a\u00a0low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay.\u00a0A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here\u2014University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University\u2014value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield\u2014and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Si\u00e2n?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Cardiff University\u2014yes. My daughter's example\u2014that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt\u2014in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities,\u00a0the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context\u2014. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glynd\u0175r University, there's no problem there, though."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "No, there is no problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one\u00a0has done the Welsh bac\u2014.\u00a0I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time\u2014you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum\u2014they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says\u2014. It's got to be\u2014. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?"}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the\u00a0WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about\u2014back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers\u00a0there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand\u2014'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do."}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that\u00a0people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac\u2014even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac\u00a0in terms of\u2014I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac\u00a0within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac\u00a0are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think the baccalaureate\u00a0approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac\u00a0is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac\u00a0anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac\u00a0under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16\u2014I accept that. Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?"}, {"speaker": "Julie Morgan AM", "content": "No, I've finished, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners,\u00a0i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac\u00a0is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we\u2014. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have\u00a0a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac\u00a0in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately\u2014. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come\u00a0on in and you won't have to do it.'"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac\u00a0is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Do you let your Seren\u00a0students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We've forced\u2014. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices\u2014we have a large choice\u2014and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier\u2014everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac\u00a0is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come\u00a0to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers\u2014there is no doubt about that\u2014and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular\u2014who are needed in your sector, after all\u2014might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners\u2014presumably you need them all."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some\u2014. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Call them 'commercial'."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing\u2014. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac\u00a0as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "That's great. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come\u00a0to us for this particular reason.'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask,\u00a0'Do\u00a0I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually\u2014as I said\u2014have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come\u00a0to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I'm being devil's advocate."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes\u2014if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra\u2014Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac\u00a0to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time\u2014and parents\u2014they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we\u00a0did\u2014. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "That's a question."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or\u00a0months."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that\u00a0if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac\u00a0at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult."}, {"speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen", "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC\u00a0programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?"}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'm not assured in terms of\u2014yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside\u2014'Welsh bac\u00a0specialists' in inverted commas\u2014it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac\u00a0and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac\u2014. It's been an intensive staff development process."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac\u00a0are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context."}, {"speaker": "Ed Evans", "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that\u00a0far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this\u2014. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way\u2014. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board\u2014I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in\u00a0some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'"}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just ask\u2014? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground."}, {"speaker": "Kay Martin", "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac\u00a0has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at\u2014. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning."}, {"speaker": "Nick Brazil", "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Dafydd Evans", "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac\u00a0is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes."}], "query": "What did Nick Brazil (deputy principal) think of introducing a specialist teacher training qualification?", "answer": "Nick Brazil thought the number of the skills and the number of challenges that were done within the Welsh bac were done very similarly within the vocational qualification. Therefore, a number of those staff had already got those skills and they had undertaken that."}, {"id": 110, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting between the Children, Young People and Education Committee and the Welsh Government was considered as an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. To start with, Kirsty Williams AM introduced the current feedback and emphasized that there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible in the new curriculum. Also, the spirit of co-construction was also included and the four purposes would ensure the legitimacy of changes. Besides,  'what matters' were the articulation of the big ideas and although there were significant differences between each sector, they act following the same guidance. Lastly, Kirsty Williams AM assured the meeting that human rights and financial resources were considered in the new curriculum."}, {"id": 111, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What were the specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum that would be included in the primary legislation?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM introduced that first of all, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in learning and experience. Second, the government also intended to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects like literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency. Third, a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements would also be included."}, {"id": 112, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What would be added to the legislation?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM explained that the area of learning and experience for well-being was already there, and what would be included was the things that matter in the area of learning, and it was going to be put into the legislation. Lynne Neagle AM added that every school would have to teach mental health by law since the 'what matters' referred to both physical and mental health, and the government intended to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements were a set given in the system."}, {"id": 113, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about the 'what matters'?", "answer": "The 'what matters' was the articulation of the big ideas and it was to make sure that essence of the core content was consistent. The actual wording of the 'what matters' statements would be in the secondary legislation. At that time, the need to deliver and the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement would be on the face of the Bill. As a result, mental health would be put in an important place."}, {"id": 114, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What value the government placed on different sectors?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM suggested that Welsh Government had always been big supporters of WISERD (WalesInstitute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods). More research into Welsh education would always be needed. As a Government, all aspects of concerns of Welsh education should be taken into consideration as the government was planning the new curriculum. For instance,  empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teached their children actually gave the government an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of the school children than what they had at the moment."}, {"id": 115, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What did the WISERD research suggest about the distinction in schools?", "answer": "Hefin David AM introduced that the WISERD research suggested that the senior management teams and classroom teachers would share different views towards the change since classroom teachers would be more sceptical. Kirsty Williams AM explained that classroom teachers were absolutely crucial to this, as a result, difficult step had been taken to delay the implementation of the curriculum to same some amount of time to make sure that it was not just school leaders but individual classroom practitioners who had the skills that they would need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allowed them. To ensure this process, different accountability frameworks to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum would be incorporated."}, {"id": 116, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What did the meeting talk about the model of Scotland?", "answer": "Hefin David AM asked about what lessons could be learned from the introduction of the Scotish curriculum. Kirsty Williams AM explained some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum, including assessment and content, which had been a crucial part of the process. Also, professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes was an alert to the Welsh government. Steve Davies added that one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content and it could be a fit for the new curriculum."}, {"id": 117, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "How would the money for supporting teachers help in the preparation of the implementation?", "answer": "To answer Dawn Bowden AM's question, Kirsty Williams AM first indicated that the money was not an insignificant amount but the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. The money was being made available to each and every school and had empowered head teachers to think about the professional needs of the school and the practitioners in the school. Also it was aimed at a national level, but to start with, schools would be assessed individually."}, {"id": 118, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What was the money like in the professional development preparation?", "answer": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and continuously, cooperation with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning would be included to campaign for more money allocated specifically beyond the two years."}, {"id": 119, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about the innovation schools?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM pointed out that all schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into innovation schools, as the next phase. There would be both a downside and an upside for the programme of innovation schools. At this stage, it should be better to move away from the original 's AM concluded that pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. In this case, school with a specific aspect of strength should be encouraged to apply."}, {"id": 120, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "How was awareness and understanding of human rights embedded in the new curriculum?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM explained that children's rights and human rights had been key considerations throughout the design, and this was currently set out in overarching guidance and the government continued to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And initial assessment from the children's commissioner's office had demonstrated that what was proposed in the new curriculum was a big stepforward. Also, the current existing output of that engagement and feedback had been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning, which was certainly a powerful contribution."}, {"id": 121, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What should be included in the implementation of the Welsh dimension?", "answer": "Sian Gwenllian AM pointed out that the Learned Society of Wales had said that there should be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Kirsty Williams AM introduced that there was a separate programme of work that was looking at resources needed to support the curriculum and it certainly would be a must."}, {"id": 122, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Suzy Davies is going to be arriving a little bit late. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No? Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is an evidence session to scrutinise the Welsh Government's progress in developing the new curriculum for Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Claire Bennett, who is deputy director for curriculum and assessment. Thank you all for attending this morning, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so if it's okay, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking you what the main messages are that you've received during the feedback period on the draft curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. If I may, I think it's important to understand what the level of that feedback has been. So, there was a concerted effort and a plan drawn up to try and ensure that there was as much engagement, knowledge and opportunity as possible. So, working through the regional consortia, approximately 120 separate events were organised, and we believe that in the region of 6,000 headteachers, teachers, governors and teaching assistants have actually had an opportunity to participate in those events. We also held a number of focus group sessions specifically for young people themselves, so that they could give us their feedback. There were 24 focus groups that were arranged for children and young people. We also held some specific events to engage with the business community. We'll all be familiar, won't we, with the narrative of, 'Oh, we're sending people out into the world of business without the skills that we as an employer are looking for'. So we thought it was really important to engage business so that they can have their say and their input into the process. And obviously we work very hard on making it as easy as possible via new technology for people to have their say. So, Members, I'm sure, will have been aware of the specific pages on Hwb that outlined the draft curriculum, and we had 275,000 unique visits to the Hwb curriculum pages. It's really interesting to see the breakdown of the areas of learning and experience\u2014which particular AoLEs were the most popular and were being looked at the most\u2014with our creative and performing arts and the creativity and the expressive arts being the most popular. So that's really interesting that people really wanted to engage in the content of that particular AoLE. What, then, have people said to us? Well, I'm really pleased that there has been broad support for the curriculum changes that we are proposing. There's real support for the need for change, because that's the first question, actually; why are we doing this, and why do we need to change? So, support for the need for change, and lots of support for the principle of a purpose-led curriculum. So, good levels of support for the four purposes, and that driving the content below it. Strong support for greater autonomy and agency for the profession\u2014so, the ability of the profession to take a framework and then truly let them adapt it to meet the needs of the children that they are working with in their communities. Also, a great welcome of the emphasis on formative assessment and the importance of formative assessment. In terms of some of the things that people are asking us to look again at, some of that is around some of the language used. Can we clarify, can we simplify in some areas, are there things that are repeated in a variety of AoLEs? Can we use that as an overarching, rather than repeating ourselves? Can we simplify it and clarify some of the language? Also, in some areas\u2014. It's interesting; in some areas people want it simplified and cut down, but in other areas, people say, 'Well actually, in this bit of it, we need a bit more detail, and a bit more depth and clarity'. So we'll be reflecting on all the feedback that we've had. That process has already started, but considering that this is a massive change, I have been hugely encouraged, actually, by the high levels of engagement and support for the broad principles of what we're doing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you, Minister. You said that you're reflecting on the messages that you've received. Are you able to give the committee any early indication of what level of change you anticipate making to the guidance?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think what's really important and what has been the strength of the process to date is that we are not doing this to our profession, we are doing it with our profession. So, in the spirit of co-construction, the reflection on the feedback will continue to be primarily led by the existing infrastructure that we already had that got us to this stage at present.\u00a0So, Members will be aware that we've slightly changed the model. We had our pioneer school model and we have slightly refined that now. Pioneers were asked if they wanted to continue in that process and to put themselves forward, and we've narrowed that down now to a smaller group of innovative schools. But above and beyond the innovative schools, we looked at individuals who have specific expertise in subject areas, and they're the first part of that process. So, they met last week to begin looking at the feedback, and we'll continue to use the processes that we have to reflect and refine. Are there big changes to the concept? No. Opportunities to do things better, explain things better, simplify where possible, where we've been told that that needs to happen, provide greater depth where we've been told that needs to happen\u2014absolutely. We're definitely very alive and very willing to engage in those, but in terms of the overall concept, then no, no significant changes."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. And what are the steps now before the final curriculum is published in January 2020?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, the quality\u2014. We call them\u2014it's not a very nice name\u2014quality improvement practitioners, the QI practitioners. So, these are the subject specialists. They met last week to begin this process. In October, there will be a number of workshops lasting three days at a time where those practitioners will continue that process of feedback with our curriculum and assessment group and all those people involved. By November, we would expect the QI groups to have completed their work and would want them to be in a position to hand over the refinements to an editorial process, and that has to be done in both languages. I think it's really important that we don't do it in English and then we simply translate it into Welsh. So, the editorial process will then be engaged to draw up the final example. It also, then, hands over to the publication team to do all the work on the publication, our website team will then be working on it, and then we would expect final publication in January\u2014am I right, Claire?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, January."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some specific questions now on the legislation from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "You've touched on the point that there's going to be some sort of change, and you've mentioned in your paper to us that further specific aspects of the framework of the curriculum are going to be included in the primary legislation. We want to know what those aspects will be and what has made you change your mind."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The original proposal that we began working on was, in the legislation, to provide for the four purposes\u2014so, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation\u2014as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you'll all be familiar with. Then, below that, we were going to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects\u2014so, the literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency\u2014as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory, so, for instance, above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports. A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education. I've already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill. So, the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody\u2014. So, we will make a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements. So, we're bringing it a step lower again. Rather than simply, in law, leaving it at the AoLE level, we'll be bringing it down again to the 'what matters' statements within that, again, providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level. We'll also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas. So, there has been in the Chamber\u2014I can see Suzy is writing this down\u2014Suzy has asked me questions about, 'How do you create a national expectation around progression?' We've reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process, so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out. As I said, we are proposing those changes because of responses that we've had. One of the consistent worries that some people have had, whilst being very supportive of the overall aims, is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school, but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern. So, we've reflected on that. I set up a process\u2014this was an open process, and we were open to listening to people. So, I think those will be the two main areas where we hadn't originally thought that we would legislate for, but that we will now legislate for."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Great. That's very helpful. I haven't got the 'what matters'\u00a0statements in front of me\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, if you remember, we have the four purposes, and then we have the areas of learning and experience, and then, below the areas of learning and experience are the broad concepts that we would expect to be delivered in each of those areas of learning and experience. So, we're going to be refining some of those. Some of the feedback that we've had is that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, will you be adding to those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Adding is not necessarily\u2014no, not adding. But, for instance, the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience. So, they'll be refined, but not added to, and then we will legislate for them, and that hadn't been the original intention."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. Will they include mental health and well-being?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, the area of learning and experience for well-being is already there, and underneath that area of learning title, there are the broad concepts of what matters, what we believe matters, in that area of learning, and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation. Sorry, I'm not helping, because I haven't got them with me either to read them out."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "They are in the annex to the paper, Si\u00e2n, and, obviously, mental health is in there. So, just to clarify, then, that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, because the 'what matters' states very clearly the broad concepts in health and well-being. It refers to both physical and mental health, and we intend to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements are a set given in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Claire, am I explaining it okay?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes, the 'what matters' are the articulation of the big ideas. These are the essence of the core content. So, the idea is to make sure that those are consistent, and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those, which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them. But the concept that you might not do one 'what matters'\u2014it was never what was intended. They were always intended to represent, as a whole, the learning that every learner should get. They won't be literally in the Bill, because, obviously, you might want to change the emphasis, so that'll be provided for in subordinate legislation, but the provision will be there, and they will have the status of something that's not optional, basically, for a school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Therefore, it's not going to be on the face of the Bill\u2014the mental health aspect, for example. And there are other matters that we've raised here. This is what I'm not clear about. You're saying that it's subordinate, but then you're saying\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "So, on the face of the Bill, we will make provision to say that the 'what matters' statements have to be delivered. Over time, the 'what matters' statements might change. So the actual wording of the 'what matters' statements will be in secondary legislation; the need to deliver and the requirement, the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement, will be on the face of the Bill. So, for instance, education is changing all the time. If I think, if we had sat here 20 years ago, we probably, in a 'what matters' statement on health and well-being, wouldn't have referred to mental health, 20 years ago, because our understanding as a society, our willingness as a society to engage in that\u2014. So, if we had drawn up a 'what matters' statement even a decade ago, I suspect we wouldn't have talked about mental health. So, the concept of having to deliver the 'what matters' statement will be in the primary legislation; the actual wording, because otherwise if you wanted to change it you'd have to go through the entire process\u2014. So, the wording of the 'what matters' statement will be in secondary legislation. The actual need and the compulsion, the expectation that you have to do that, will be on the face of the Bill."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Just on this question of the distinction between primary and secondary legislation. The point you've made is one that Government has made with other legislation prior to this, but can I just ask you to consider the worthiness, if you like, or the good purpose of actually putting the wording of the 'what matters' statements, the first round of those, in the primary legislation on the basis that they can be amended through affirmative procedure secondary legislation when they need changing in due course? The reason I ask this is just to explain to the population of Wales that there is certainty at the first step, bearing in mind that it will change over the years\u2014I completely accept that. But when you're amending primary legislation, you don't have to go through the whole process again\u2014you can do it via secondary legislation provided the correct powers are put in the primary legislation to do that. So, I'm just asking you to consider that."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, as I said, I think we've demonstrated that we're listening to people, that there has been concern expressed about certainty and having a national approach on some of these issues, and we have taken steps to address that and we'll continue to reflect, but, crucially, we'll continue to reflect with our partners who are co-constructing this with us. And I think the important thing to remember is that it's not Ministers or civil servants that are necessarily drawing up these 'what matters' statements, it is practitioners themselves, guided by experts in the field that are not teachers, that have come up with these things."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Obviously, the Bill will presumably come to this committee\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We're assuming so."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And we'll have an opportunity to influence it. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Moving on, therefore, to the religious education and relationships and sexuality education, I understand that you've had numerous responses to the White Paper surrounding this particular area. What are the main points that were raised with you and how do you intend to respond to what's been said?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, these two areas certainly have ensured that lots of people have responded. It's interesting that people are far more interested in what we may or may not do about these two subjects than maths, English, Welsh, science, but there we go; I guess it's the nature of the areas that we're talking about. With regard to religious education, we had a significant number of people that have expressed concerns about our approaches towards RE that were set out in the White Paper. I think amongst the things that people have objected to were\u2014. There were very mixed views on the inclusion of a range of faiths and world religions included in that area of learning. Many people said that there needed to be a much clearer and stronger\u2014and in some cases exclusive\u2014focus on Christianity, as opposed to including other world religions and, indeed, non-religious views. So, secular views or spiritual\u2014spirituality rather than organised religion. There were people who thought that RE shouldn't be compulsory at all and therefore our proposals to ensure that RE was compulsory, people objected to that, on the other\u2014. And there were many responses that were concerned about and emphasised the need to respect parents' views. So, if a child's parents have certain views, those are to be respected. Of those respondents that agreed that RE should be a compulsory part of the curriculum, or were neutral\u2014didn't express an opinion either way, but were neutral on the question\u2014the issues that they were bringing forward were: a need for learners, as they saw it, to be prepared to be part of a diverse and multicultural society. So, they wanted RE to be much more broad-based and encompassing of world views and world religions. They felt that that was an important part of preparing a young person to live in a world that is, as you say, diverse with people of different views living in it. There is certainly a need to modernise RE; some people perceived the current curriculum as a bit old-fashioned. And also there was much feedback on making sure that the profession was ready to deliver a renewed, modernised RE curriculum. So, those are the issues around religious education\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Can I just\u2014? Before you go on to the next section\u2014is there evidence that this was a co-ordinated lobby to present a particular view and what is your response going to be to this? Obviously, there are always going to be lobbies presenting particular viewpoints. Our role, as politicians, is to lead, obviously, isn't it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. Claire, would you say that it was a co-ordinated response?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "It wasn't a campaign in the sense of it being completely consistent, but, certainly, I think people with a particular interest in this issues felt galvanised to respond to the White Paper on this issue\u2014on this one and on relationships and sex education."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And your response?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And my response: well, clearly, Si\u00e2n, I need to consider those responses, and both for RE and RSE, I shall be making a statement in the near future of our intentions on how to respond to these issues. With regard to RSE, the key messages, again, are focused on whether children should be taught RSE at all and that this should not be in the curriculum and it shouldn't be a compulsory part of the curriculum\u2014that this was not an area where the school system and the education system should be involved, and that it should be alone the preserve of parents to teach children about issues around relationships and sexuality education. There were some issues raised about potential challenges with staff in talking about issues that they perhaps personally did not agree with with regard to this curriculum. So, those were the main areas that people were concerned about. With regard to guaranteed access to a full curriculum, there were strong views that, again, it should be parents, and parents alone, that made decisions about whether their children should have access to the entirety of the curriculum rather than schools or the state setting those rules. So, I have to reflect on what has come back as part of the consultation exercise. I think these are really important aspects of our curriculum. I think if we are to achieve the four purposes, and that's how we have always got to think about it, and if we agree that those are the kind of people and individuals we want leaving our compulsory education system\u2014how do we achieve those purposes? How are they healthy, confident individuals? How are we to prepare our children to be ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world? So, we will reflect on what has come back to us, but I do believe that these are important aspects of the curriculum, if we are to achieve the four purposes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. You've also mentioned that there will be a final draft of the curriculum at the start of next year. What is the timetable for the Bill itself and for seeking Royal Assent for that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay, so, as I said earlier, the expectation is that we will publish a final version of the curriculum in January 2020, so schools will then have the opportunity to be really engaging in it. I have to say, I'm in schools most weeks, and many, many, many schools are already taking the opportunity, even on the draft, to begin to think about planning and, indeed, changing what they're doing in schools. I'm overwhelmed, actually, by the enthusiasm of the sector to embrace what is a massive change for them. So, that's January. We would expect to introduce the Bill following the Easter recess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. That gives enough time, then, for it to be\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "\u2014actually implemented in September\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "In 2022."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In 2022, yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think what's really important is that we get the actual curriculum out in January itself, because that's the bit that schools are really concerned about, and then we will have the process here to underpin it."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now on potential unintended consequences, and other matters relating to that, from Hefin David."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I always\u2014and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do, and, in fact, we need more research into Welsh education, not less. Therefore, I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work. I think what's really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that, in the time where I've had an influence to influence over Welsh education, either as a backbencher or now as a Minister, equality and principles of equity have always driven what I've tried to achieve. And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system. Closing the attainment gap is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement gap."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And how do you respond, then\u2014? I mean, it's a balanced paper, it looks at pros and cons and there's a mixed picture from it. How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen. These are 'coulds' and 'maybes' and things that we need, as a Government, to take into consideration as we plan this journey. There can't be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum isn't being delivered, but I understand, and we need listen to\u2014. If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into\u2014that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us. I have to say, though, the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity, in the sense that the curriculum is what's taught in our schools. There is an opportunity, I believe, that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment. What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children, and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind, are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum. So, the curriculum on its own can play a part, but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it. And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation, that has high expectation of all of our children, and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there. Secondly: excellent teaching. In the end, no education system, whatever its curriculum, can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out. So, the curriculum can be the most exciting, wonderful\u2014and I think it is exciting and I think it's wonderful\u2014it can be the most exciting, wonderful thing in the world, but if teachers can't teach it effectively, if their pedagogy is not excellent, then the content itself\u2014it won't work. Then we've got issues around assessment and accountability. So, how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum? How do you understand how that pupil, who has, you know\u2014who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons, usually reasons outside of the school\u2014? That pupil is vulnerable. How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion? And then, finally, the well-being of the child. People sometimes say, 'Oh, you're going soft\u2014typical, going soft'. But what we know is that we cannot expect children to learn unless we address issues around their well-being. But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a child's well-being. There's been lots and lots of research done, not in a Welsh context but in other systems, where children are kept behind for a year. That has a massive impact on their well-being. So, good achievement leads to good well-being, but good well-being also leads to good achievement, and you can't separate the two. So, the curriculum on its own will not be enough. It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it, and we have to be cognisant of the WISERD's research, of course we do, to ensure that, as we're doing our professional learning, as we're planning well-being for our children, as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools\u2014and we have some, we have many, but we need to do more to support them\u2014it is that that will make the biggest difference, not just the content of the curriculum on its own. Although I do believe the flexibility that we're allowing people will, I think, lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they don't understand why they're being asked to learn what they're learning, they don't see the relevance of what they're learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are, or they don't see themselves reflected. So, for some of our communities, they don't see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we're teaching at the moment. And, again, international research would suggest that, if you want a child to thrive, they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they're learning in schools."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams\u2014the management teams\u2014would certainly buy into what you've just said, but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "As I said, classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this, which is why, first of all, we've taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it's not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "So, if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out: 'We'll end up'\u2014this is from classroom teachers\u2014 'We'll end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.' and 'there will be no consistency'. And consistency is the one I'd particularly like to focus on: 'there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes'."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, first of all, we've just talked, haven't we, about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that's why we're changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill. So, in terms of progression steps, there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales. So, as I said, we're using this report, we're using this feedback, to inform decisions going forward. In terms of\u2014. Read the first bit again. Was it\u2014[Interruption.] Accountability, yes."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Yes: 'different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum.'"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, as always, in education, teachers\u2014understandably, because this is the regime that they have been a part of\u2014immediately don't think about their pedagogy, they think about, 'How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual?' And what we're trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and doesn't work against the purposes of the curriculum. So, I understand why teachers are concerned. They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they're going to be held accountable for their practice, but, again, what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "It was the segregation bit I was particularly interested in and the response with regard to disadvantaged pupils and pupils of lower attainment."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't\u2014. I do not believe that any changes\u2014and I would not pursue any changes that\u2014would lead to a segregation."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Okay. And with regard to the connection between Welsh Government and local government and the concerns that the Welsh Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Education Wales raised, what progress\u00a0has been made on bridging the gap between\u2014? Whether it's a perception gap or a practice gap, what progress has been made on that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I think the last time we had this conversation in the committee I said that I think the comments that the WLGA and ADEW had made were reflective of an old piece of work and were not current and up to date, and I think progress had been made in that time, and I'm pleased to report the significant progress that's been made\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Bridges have been built."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Bridges have been\u2014. Well, from my perspective, the bridges were always there. But we've got renewed, energetic engagement from the WLGA and ADEW in all the arrangements that we have for the development of the curriculum and my understanding is that they have said publicly and in writing that they're very supportive of what's going on."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "I'm sure they're watching and nodding vigorously now on Senedd.tv."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I will be with them tomorrow night and Friday morning and I'm sure if they've got any other views they'll let me know."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "And the final question: there is a process, a model for this, which is Scotland. What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum, but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen. So, I think it's fair to say\u2014and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year. Unfortunately, Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in, but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government, although not John himself, and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum. Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought\u2014. They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment. Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in. Professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes, I think they would agree that that wasn't necessarily\u2014. The middle tier, which they don't have to the\u2014. Well, they've got local authorities and regions, but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing. So, I think we've learned\u2014. Although our curriculum isn't a copycat, as I said, we have been able to learn from, and we've had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we've had in terms of developing coherence. But, Steve, I don't know if\u2014. You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "As I said, they're very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content. So, that was critical, but we've embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group. So, they feed in throughout\u2014not 'don't do this because Scotland has done it', but they feed some of that learning into the system. As the Minister said, we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we're doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The particular focus of this year's conference was on the issue of assessment and we were joined by colleagues from Scotland, from Ireland, from Iceland, from Finland, from Saskatchewan, from Nova Scotia and from Uruguay."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When did that take place?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Where?"}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "When."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The weekend just gone."}, {"speaker": "Hefin David AM", "content": "Right."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy. You've got a whole section on assessment, I don't know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "This isn't about assessment."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, on the basis that this is not about assessment, you mentioned that one of the lessons learned from Scotland is that they said they spent too much time on curriculum content rather than assessment. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've learned about how they quality control the content, even though the content, of course, will be completely different in Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, the content would be completely different. When I said they spent too much time, I said that the focus had been in their work about just talking about content and, actually, the assessment arrangements were bolted on at the end of the process. So, the curriculum was all designed and developed, it was sent out to schools, and then the question was raised: 'Oh, actually, what assessment methods\u2014? How are going to assess how children are getting on?' But, Steve, you would have more details of their exact experience of quality control of the content\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Of the content, because every school is going to be very different at this."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "In terms of developing the guidance and the curriculum going out in January is concerned, I think\u2014again, I don't want to be overly critical, but one of the findings was that they encouraged schools to go forth and multiply in terms of the materials and ideas and concepts that were coming through. What we learnt was to actually\u2014the pioneer movement was to get a smaller group to develop those materials and look to engage through cluster groups. So, we had pioneers who worked with clusters to test the development of that concept before we were looking for schools to go away and develop a larger amount of content. So, in terms of the staging and measuring of bringing together the curriculum and the associated guidance, I think the time we've taken to actually get there and the strategy of using pioneer schools, external experts, back to pioneer schools, back to regions, or engaging regions in that, has been more measured and planned against a planned timescale, where everyone from the outset\u2014with the exception of the extension of the one year\u2014was clear on when we were going to be producing materials that would allow the profession to then take it and use it. I think\u2014. Claire, do you want to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "I think, as we move forward, that kind of cluster approach remains really important. So, it's, as schools then think about, 'What am I going to do in my school?', that they're doing that in clusters together. When colleagues from the regional consortia were sharing their thinking with the curriculum assessment group last week, they were talking about the very specific and differentiated, I suppose, professional learning support that they would be offering to schools that have already done quite a lot of thinking and are quite far down this journey and then the kind of different sorts of approaches they would offer schools that are just starting out. Their emphasis was very much on this peer-to-peer sharing and support, so people aren't just going off in isolation. The other thing that will also help in that process will be the national network. So, there'll continue to be a focus for each area of learning and experience, bringing together the professional learning and the ongoing curriculum development, bringing together practitioners and experts and colleagues across the middle tier to give a bit of strategic direction and to be able to identify if there are areas where more support is needed. So, I think that a huge amount of thinking, particularly in the regions, has gone on into the practical support that can be given to schools, not just in engaging with the curriculum now, but then how they take it and think about then developing it in their schools. It feels like\u2014I think Graham Donaldson was calling it a 'slow-burn process'. You don't start in 2022\u2014people are already doing it and there's a lot of thought going into how to support continued sharing through the next two years."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And I think that's another difference, you see\u2014that strong middle tier and the role that the middle tier is playing in Wales, which was absent in Scotland. So, this ability to work in networks to provide support to a network of schools, that wasn't available in the Scottish system and I think that makes\u2014I think that helps us in the way that they just simply didn't have a structure that allowed them to do that. It's not a criticism of them; it's just that we have got a structure that we can utilise to do that support so that schools are not completely left on their own and they can be working with other schools, with their regional consortia, going forward."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I just have a quick\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Very quickly, because I want to move on to implementation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes, sorry, I completely understand. Was one of the things that Scotland did\u2014I don't want to use the word 'assess'\u2014to monitor the pupil response to the curriculum as one of the means of deciding whether curricula in particular schools were working well enough?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I don't know if they\u2014. I don't know if they did, but one of the interesting things that we were reflecting on over the weekend is that, certainly some of the Canadian systems, in particular, which we were interested in, used pupil surveys as part of their accountability regime\u2014so, actually taking the time to ask students how they felt, not just about the content of the new curriculum, but actually how they felt their school was doing. And so we're interested in looking, as I said, at some of the practices that other countries use to include pupil voice to find out what's happening."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes. I mean, it's early thoughts, because we've only just heard about it ourselves. But that's the beauty of working with other countries. They found that particular useful and successful, and we're keen to see if we could do something similar."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Thank you. I'll keep my questions shorter."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "The next questions are from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. Yes, just around preparations for the implementation, really. You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on, but I'm just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation, how that's actually been used. What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation? I know you've set aside about \u00a324 million over two years. So, it's not an insignificant amount. I just wondered how that was being utilised."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "You're right, first of all, it's not an insignificant amount; it's the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. So, you're right that it is not insignificant, and it was a hard-won resource, I can tell you, from my colleagues. Because, as I said earlier, the curriculum itself can be amazing, but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it, then all this change will be for nothing. So, investing in the profession is absolutely crucial. That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think, 'What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school?' Because, as we've just heard from Claire, there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain. There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now, now that it's published, to be really engaging with the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, there hasn't been a national programme, as such."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There is a national element to it, but we've given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they're going to need. There's no way I can know that. The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools. But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers, and that's national. The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement. So, actually, the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum. The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and area-specific professional learning. So, there is a national approach in terms of leadership. The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants, and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics. Claire referred to the AoLE networks, and there's an opportunity then for people to engage in that. It's also important to say that that's not the end of the process. So, this September is the start of our new ITE courses, taught for the first time, and that's great. I'm concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE. So, we're looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support, again on a national basis, for those who are newly qualified, beginning their teaching career, because I don't think we've done that on a consistently good level across the country. We're also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system. We're also involved in\u2014and I'm sure the committee has heard about it, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground\u2014schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation. We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong, strong culture of self-evaluation as a first step in their school improvement system, and we've not been very good at that in Wales, we've not been strong at that, that's not the culture that we have had. We've kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you're good or bad, rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about, 'What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on?' So, the schools as learning organisations are an important part, again, so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. And the money that you announced for this\u00a0\u00a0professional development preparation, if you like, was for two years. So, there's going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development, as well as anything else. But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you've already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues? Or do you see what you've put in as being, 'This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation. The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that'?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and, clearly, I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning, and I'm sure this committee and, indeed, members of this committee could help me in that task."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay, fine. Can you tell us a bit about the innovation schools\u2014the 16 innovation schools\u2014and how you've made your decisions about who they might be, across which sectors, in primary, secondary and so on? So, basically, how they were selected and what you're expecting of them."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase, which is innovation schools, and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us, going forward. I think one of the lessons learned, and this was said in the committee, was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools, but there was a downside to having pioneer schools, and I think, at this stage of the game, we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now\u2014everybody had to be a pioneer\u2014because this is coming down the track and we don't want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying, 'Oh, gosh. I've got to do something new today'. Not that they would have done that, but\u2014. So, the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we've all got to engage in this now. The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement, and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues. Steve."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "Yes. There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools. We've had 16\u2014four per region. It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view, and we've had evaluation being carried out\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Claire Bennett", "content": "Yes. So, during the first term of work, we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole\u2014so, take the whole curriculum guidance and then think, 'How would I apply that in the school?, Does it make sense?, Can we work with it?, What are the issues?, What are the questions that arise for us for assessment?', and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on, 'If I were putting this into practice\u2014'. So, it's slightly different to the feedback we've had from other people, which has been more, 'Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording' and kind of quite practical, and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school. That's been drawn together into an overall report, drawing out the themes, by Wavehill, who are a kind of research company. It's been really useful, and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week. Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable, in just making us think, even with all the practitioners that have been involved, 'How do we make this work for schools?', given that we've got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically. So, it's been invaluable, and they're continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we're doing is something that schools can actually realise practically."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "If you think of the pioneer model, pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. So, you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and well-being, or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum. This is about, at this stage, where we have a high degree of certainty about what it's going to look like, 'Actually, how do I as a school practically implement this in the round?', and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that. But also we did need a mix of sector\u2014secondary, primary\u2014but also linguistically, to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we've got. Faith schools, as well, are involved. So, just trying the practical implementation now, now that we know exactly\u2014not exactly\u2014 but we have a good idea what it's actually going to look like, so, 'How am I going to go about doing this?'"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Si\u00e2n has a supplementary. If I could ask as well, maybe you could provide the committee with a list of the new innovation schools."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, sure. No problem at all."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Are you confident that every school across Wales is participating in this process of change now, because the danger is, in getting these pioneer schools\u2014? I understand that they are discussing in clusters, and so on, but can you put your hand on your heart and say that every school is participating in this project now?"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "I can't tell you that, absolutely, 100 per cent are definitely, totally, absolutely equally involved. The structure we've got in place across the regions is working with schools on their readiness to actually\u2014not readiness to engage\u2014start to deliver as we move through to the future. So, each region is a member of our operations board, which was in our governance structure. And we don't have a roll-call against all schools, but we require them, or request of them that they keep us informed of the networks. Every school is part of a network that links to it, and they gauge (1) the level of activity in it, (2) the outcomes of that work, because each of the networks, each of the clusters, produces work that the region brings together. But we've not got a monitoring system that says, 'Tick every box'. What I would say, and it touches on the point you raised earlier and in relation to Scotland, I think if we had 22 units of local authorities trying to do this, it would be incredibly complex and very difficult to deliver. At a regional level, we require the regions to engage with all schools through the cluster model."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I just wanted to clarify, because in your paper you talk about giving \u00a330,000 to each, or to the innovation schools. Was that \u00a330,000 each, or \u00a330,000 for the project?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Each school that participates in the innovation schools programme gets \u00a330,000."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you for that clarification. My final question in this section is just about how we are going to deal with the issue of teachers who are not trained in Wales. So, teachers trained in England apply for jobs in Wales, but they obviously haven't been trained in the new curriculum. How are we actually going to deal with that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, you're right\u2014we will continue to have a system where teachers trained in Wales will teach in England and teachers trained in England or who have worked in England will come across the border, as well as teachers from other parts of the world coming to teach in our schools. I think that that will continue to happen. Indeed, when I'm feeling at my most confident and bullish about these issues, I think Wales will be a really attractive place to be a teacher because of the autonomy that we will be giving to our professionals, as well as an exciting new curriculum. So, I think, actually, potentially, we will have people coming across the border to teach here because it'll be a great place to be a professional. Clearly, already in some ways, programmes of study are already distinctive in Wales. We have a different exam board, if you're teaching at a secondary level. So, our programmes of study are already different and that does not preclude anybody from coming across to teach in our system from a different system. I believe that that's not a barrier to people continuing to do that. Clearly, there may be pedagogical concepts in the new curriculum that perhaps somebody who had trained in a different system would not be completely au fait with, but that is the ongoing role of professional learning within our school system, because we've just talked about the two years' worth of money; in an ideal world, if I was able to make long-term plans, I think there will be an ongoing, and there should always be an ongoing, provision for professional learning in our classrooms. And this shouldn't just be about just getting people ready for the curriculum and then taking away professional learning budgets. One of the ways in which I think we can attract teachers to Wales is to send a very clear message\u2014 and actually attract people into the profession and keep them in the profession, wherever they train\u2014that you will have a career in teaching where you will be continually supported in your practice via professional learning. So, I do not see that this is an insurmountable issue."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "So, you'll still be recruiting on the basis of skills and adaptability and so on."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, of course."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got a lot of issues to cover, so I'm going to appeal for concise questions, concise answers. On to assessment, progression and accountability\u2014Suzy."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. We've set the scene. What was the feedback like with regard to the draft assessment proposals?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Excellent, concise question. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Well, the principles were broadly supported, Suzy. We received what I would describe as positive feedback regarding the emphasis placed on ongoing assessment that is there to support children's learning and progression. Key messages were perhaps to find a better way of expressing the purposes of assessment\u2014we refer to a formative and summative assessment\u2014and just being a bit clearer about what that actually means and being clear about definitions around it. But, generally, supported."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. That's a good concise answer as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Yes, well done."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Obviously, we're all aware now of the distinction between assessment of pupils for their own progression and the evaluation of how a school does at certain points in its life cycle as well. Presumably, the way you're looking at this is to keep these items completely separate, and that evaluation and assessment proposals will be\u2014. They're out in a separate document; their results are going to be coming forward in a separate document\u2014is that right? There's a thick black line between these two concepts."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think some of the trouble that we've got ourselves in previously is because there has not been a clear distinction between assessment and accountability, and, when you start using assessment for accountability purposes, that's when, potentially, that assessment process gets corrupted and you have gaming."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Can I ask, with the assessments, though, which is about pupil progression, will those results be published internally? Will parents get to see those?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh, yes. And that should be the purpose for assessment. The primary purpose for assessment is for that professional to be able to know how to move that child's educational journey on, and you would absolutely expect professionals to have those conversations with parents, whether they're using formative methods of assessment or summative methods of assessment. So, absolutely, you would expect teachers to be sharing information around assessment methods, whichever type they use, with parents, to describe and to inform parents about what happens next for their child."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Right. I accept that. Is it realistic, then, to expect parents, families, communities, not to think about that information when they're drawing conclusions about the school, notwithstanding that formal evaluation of those schools is going to be done completely separately?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course, parents will always be interested in how the overall institution is doing. But the conversations I have with parents, and I certainly feel this myself as a parent\u2014I'm interested in how my child is doing, how my child is getting on in school, what are the issues that that child has, and, more importantly, what is the school going to do about it? So, if my child is struggling for whatever reason, what is the school going to do about that to help that child? If my child happens to be exceptionally able and talented, how are you as a school going to make the most of my child's talents and move them on to fulfil their potential? So, undoubtedly, I can't control assumptions that parents will make, but it is absolutely clear in this system, and my intention is, that teachers should share assessment methods and outcomes with parents to have that conversation about what happens next. But I am absolutely clear that we do have to make this distinction between assessment for learning and an accountability in the system, otherwise we drive\u2014inadvertently; people don't set out to do it, but we drive a set of behaviours that has negative unintended outcomes. We only have to look at the debacle around BTEC science to know that."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. I understand that. So, how\u2014? Can you just briefly give us an indication of how you think the accountability, on both sides of that thick black line\u2014the methodology\u2014is likely to change with this? You mentioned that there's going to be an independent review of performance measurements coming shortly; we know that some of the existing ones have been ditched in fairly recent legislation. Without pre-empting the findings of such a review, have you got your top three likely expected changes?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "To accountability. Well, we're moving to a system of schools as learning organisations, and a greater emphasis on self-evaluation, with external verification of that by Estyn, our inspectors."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And that will be reflected in the school categorisation system as well\u2014will those indicators change, do you think?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, categorisation\u2014again, the purpose for categorisation is not to make a judgment on a school in the sense of a league table; it's a triage process, categorisation."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "It's how it seen, though, sometimes."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, this is the issue, isn't it? This is the problem of designing a system where there are perfectly good reasons to introduce the system\u2014and in this case it's a triage system to identify levels of support for a school. But then others come along and turn it into something else that it was never intended to be. And categorisation was never intended to be a way of expressing a league table of school performances; it's there to identify levels of support that a school can expect from its regional consortia. Now, we have, we have\u2014we will continue to keep categorisation, but, since coming into office, we have tried to adapt categorisation simply away from pure data to a more formative assessment process, and categorisation will continue to evolve. The message is very clear: this is not to absolve our system of accountability. And the first level of accountability in that system has to be the professionalism of an individual member of staff\u2014the moral purpose that I bring to my classroom today to do right by the children that are in front of me. That's the first level of our accountability, and therefore we have our new teaching standards. As a leader, we have new leadership standards. That's the first part of our accountability regime\u2014the moral purpose our professionals bring to their work. So, categorisation will stay. Will it evolve? Yes, because it's been evolving over the last three years. This is about better accountability, smarter accountability, not less accountability."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Well, just finally on that, there may be an argument, then, for scrapping categorisation, putting something else in place. But I suppose the core question is: how are the general public going to understand all those things that you've just mentioned about the teachers being able to teach, the leaders being able to lead, and how well a school is performing against KPIs on those measures?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, because we will still\u2014. We will still have inspections, won't we?"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. So, it's all going to go in through the Estyn reports. This is the kind of detail I'm after."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, that's the ultimate, isn't it? So, the ultimate is\u2014. The ultimate system that we're going to get to and the ultimate arbiter and the part of the system that provides public assurance and public confidence ultimately ends in Estyn. But it starts with our teaching standards and the professionalism of individual members of staff. That's where it starts, and it ends in Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. Will you just let me have this one?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Go on, then."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "I don't think I've quite followed that journey. Because I get the point of the end point being Estyn, and that's where the public assurance will be seen, but what about the public assurance at those early steps of the teaching standards and the leadership standards? Where will we see those demonstrated?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, you would expect to see those demonstrated in the self-evaluation that a school will provide of itself, and then Estyn\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "All right, so schools will be publishing self-evaluations annually, or something like that?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, schools\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "The outcome of the self-evaluation is a school development plan. We expect those to be considerably enhanced."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And available."}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "We expect a series of priorities for a school to set itself as a result of prioritisation. We expect that to be published through the school website, so the outcomes of that. What we're looking at, in terms of what's brought to that, is not a narrow set of measures\u2014just two measures, or one measure in a secondary school. The measures will still consider reflection on progress of children, but it'll also have reviews of mental health, well-being, how it approaches that and things that it wanted to do. It's broadening the evidence base. The school is evaluating\u2014the outcome of that will be a development plan, annually published on the website. Within the plan, they will have a set area of priorities that they will be publishing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "And the schools' ability\u2014whether they do that well or whether they don't do it well\u2014will be judged by Estyn."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. That's really helpful."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, as my colleague Chair Dai Lloyd would say, 'Now we're into the needing serious agility territory'. So, we've got some questions on specific areas. Firstly from me: Qualifications Wales have told us that the curriculum must define qualifications rather than the other way around. What implications does that have for the amount of time that is needed to develop qualifications that are properly aligned with the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, I'd absolutely agree with Qualifications Wales. The qualifications have to arise out of the curriculum, and the qualifications should not be dictating the curriculum. Qualifications Wales, which I met with yesterday, I think\u2014yes, yesterday; it seems a long time ago\u2014will begin their national conversation about reform of qualifications as a result of curriculum reform in November."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. How is awareness and understanding of human rights, including children\u2019s rights, being embedded in the new curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Children's rights, human rights\u2014they've been key considerations throughout the design, and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And I'm delighted that the children's commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we're proposing is a big step forward."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the children's commissioner\u2019s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June, allowing just over a month for young people to engage? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people, as I said at the beginning. We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms. The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning. It's a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change, especially in how the 'what matters' statements are worded."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum, the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum. It's one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we've had previously, where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications aren't available. So, we're already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum. And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. And, in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language, how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welsh-medium schools going to work and how are they going to work in English-medium schools?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. Just on the Welsh dimension, I think it's really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really, really, really broad and not confined to specific areas. I was in Swansea University just this week, looking at some of their Technocamp work that they're doing to help us with coding, and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry. And so my expectation is that that isn't taught in a history lesson\u2014that, actually, when children are learning about coding, they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology. So, that's\u2014. When I talk about a Welsh dimension, I mean right the way across the curriculum, and I think that's important. With regard to\u2014. The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught. We have to recognise\u2014. We have to recognise that, and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language, and they have to be contextualised. We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welsh-medium school, their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker, and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an English-medium school. Vice versa\u2014we've had this discussion before\u2014if a child is going into Welsh medium, their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an English-medium school, although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position. So, we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school, but recognising that it is a progression. It isn't a start and never get any further."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA, I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020. I don't entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking. So, why not participate in these tests?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Because, for me, the key factor for making that decision, and I intend to stick to it, is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay, so it's the timing."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, for me."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, later on, maybe when this is embedded\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "I think there could well be a different decision at a later date, but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it. Can I just say? In terms of creativity, Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD, especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I get that. That's why I don't understand why we're not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA. But, I understand."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "There could well be a different decision, but for 2021 we're asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with. I just don't think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we're worried about a lack of creativity in our education system. The very opposite is true. We are seen as exemplars by the OECD\u00a0and some of the work that's been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "So, you'll think about it for the next round of PISA."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Oh gosh, that shows that Si\u00e2n thinks that I'll be here to make that decision. [Laughter.] That's very encouraging indeed. [Laughter.]"}, {"speaker": "Steve Davies", "content": "One very quick technical point, Chair. We have not opted out of this. Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it, and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet, you've got a question on physical activity."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can you give a guarantee that all children and young people, where appropriate, will take part in physical activity under the new curriculum for Wales? Also, how much time per week will the Government expect children and young people to spend undertaking physical activity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, all children will be given that opportunity, because if they are not then that school would be in breach of the expectations that will be set out in statute."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you monitor it?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Again, Janet, I don't go around monitoring schools now."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "No, but through the systems and mechanisms in place."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, of course. As we've just said\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "How will you ensure that every child has that opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Well, as we've just said, ultimately, we are not getting rid of our school improvement services and regional consortia, nor are we getting rid of Estyn. So, one would expect the quality of the curriculum to be a key consideration of any visit that Estyn would make to a school."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a question on early years."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Yes. To what extent will the new curriculum allow for the continuity of the way that the foundation phase is taught? Will there be any significant differences and have the early years professionals been involved in the development of the curriculum to date?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, early years professionals have been involved in the curriculum to date. One of the advantages, I think, of the new curriculum is to take the pedagogical principles that underpin our approach to early years education actually further into children's educational journey. I'm sure, Suzy, that you've had conversations that\u2014. We have a certain pedagogical approach until the age of seven, and then all of a sudden, at seven, it's like, 'Forget all of that now. Sit down, pick up your pen and do this.' That's been really uncomfortable for many practitioners in our primary sector. So, actually, yes, statutory and non-statutory provision have been involved in the development of the curriculum because, of course, some of this is going to be delivered in the non-statutory sector. I'm very welcoming and supportive of that, but those pedagogical principles will now be available throughout that child's educational journey, rather than the false divide we've got at the moment."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "So, aside from the purposes and the AoLEs, the type of teaching is unlikely to change in the foundation phase settings."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay. The other end of the scale now: you report that one of the themes of the feedback from further education has been the need to ensure that the transition to post-16 education is supported so that the systems don't just clash against each other. How are you working on the sector at the moment to make sure that there's a decent dovetail?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, that's really important. We don't want to do anything in pre-16 that stops people going on to be successful in post-16, whichever route the child or young person decides to take. FE have been involved in every single AoLE and they're a part of the curriculum and assessment group. So, colleagues in FE have been part of this process throughout. And then in the conversations we had yesterday with Qualifications Wales around what qualifications will look like, I was very keen to take the opportunity to emphasise that any changes to qualifications should be a gateway to further study in FE, whichever type of route the child took. But FE have been involved in this process from the very beginning."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "And you're confident they're geared up to accepting young people who have been educated in this way."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Yes, absolutely. FE continues to be one of the real strengths of our education system."}, {"speaker": "Suzy Davies AM", "content": "Okay, that's great, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got a question now on governance arrangements. Suzy, you're down to do that one\u2014sorry, Si\u00e2n."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "I think you actually answered this at the beginning, but just to confirm that you're carrying on with the same governance set-up, the different groups that you've got, and there's nothing being added there or taken away."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "No."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. And just finally from me, then, on pupil referral units: what arrangements will be in place to ensure that they can benefit from the new curriculum and how is that going to be reflected in the legislation?"}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Okay. So, we've been taking advice from Brett Pugh, who chairs the education otherwise than at school improvement group, and this has been an area where we've had to think really, really, really, really, really hard. So, what we intend to do for EOTAS and PRU is to set a minimum of what we would expect a child to receive. So, that would be around the four purposes; that would be around the cross-cutting themes of literacy, numeracy and digital competency and health and well-being. So, that would be the baseline of our expectation, that every pupil would get that. After that, then there needs to be a discussion and a focus on what is in the best interests of that particular pupil. One of the things we know about sometimes in EOTAS is we have very able and talented students who don't get access to the range of qualifications and courses that they have the capability and the aptitude to do. We also have to consider, though, that for some children they may be out of school for reasons, and telling them that they've got to do a full curriculum may be hugely detrimental to their mental health and well-being. So, for instance, to give an example, you could have a child who's very ill, and saying to them, 'You have to carry the full load of a curriculum' could be inappropriate. So, we'll be setting a minimum standard, as I said, around the purposes, around the cross-cutting themes and health and well-being, and then there will be an expectation that in conjunction with the child and the family an appropriate addition would be put in place to meet the needs of that child, recognising that they could have very different needs. Is that clear?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Well, yes, and it's something that we'll probably look to build on when we look at our inquiry on EOTAS, which is coming up. Thank you. That concludes our questions. We've covered a lot of ground. So, can I thank you for attending and thank your officials for coming today? As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for your attendance this morning."}, {"speaker": "Kirsty Williams AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Item 3 then is papers to note. As Members will see, there are a substantial number of papers to note\u201423 in total, which are in a supplementary pack. As there are so many, can I suggest that we note them all together and then we've got an opportunity to return to some of them in the private session afterwards? Is that okay with everybody? Okay. Thank you. Item 4 then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content?"}], "query": "What did the meeting talk about the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language?", "answer": "Kirsty Williams AM suggested that it was really important that whatever resources there were to support the Welsh dimensionare in a broad level and not confined to specific areas. Regardless of the type of schools, attention to the Welsh language should always be included. However, there might be change towards this implementation this year and it was unclear whether it would be discussed by different sectors."}, {"id": 123, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting began with the Project Manager announcing the task and the agenda. The group should design an original, trendy, and user-friendly remote control through the following meetings. First of all, they did a brief equipment testing on their laptops, the pens, and the whiteboard to ensure they would work. Then getting to the main point of this meeting, the group talked about the budget and reached the agreement that it had to be a universal remote control with such a high price. The group also discussed the functions, the shape and other external design of the remote design, as well as drawing them down as a conceptual draft."}, {"id": 124, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "What did the group talk about the conceptual design of the remote control, including the functions and some possible advanced techniques?", "answer": "In order to make a satisfying profit, the group had to set their price at 25 euros, which was relatively high. For fear that the higher price would lead to fewer consumers, they decided to make it a universal remote control, being able to function on different TVs. The group also planned to add a touchscreen onto the remote control and even include some games for children. What\u2019s more, they paid some attention to the energy source, whether it should be a rechargeable one or just use normal batteries."}, {"id": 125, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "What did the Project Manager think of the remote control when talking about the conceptual design of the remote control?", "answer": "When discussing the remote control, the group tried to set the price at 25 euros, which was relatively high, at least compared to the existing ones. For fear that such a high price would lose their potential consumers, the Project Manager decided to aim their product at a universal one. According to the Project Manager, only by making it a universal remote control and adding other unique characters could it attract more consumers, then eventually reaching their profit expectation."}, {"id": 126, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "Why did the Marketing disagree with the Industrial Design when discussing the possible advanced techniques on the remote control?", "answer": "When discussing adding several advanced techniques onto the remote control to make it more unique, the Industrial Design put forward to using the touchscreen. Notwithstanding the merits of the touchscreen, for instance, a touch screen would make the remote control easier and smaller, the Marketing did not agree to do so just because in that case they would be beyond the budget."}, {"id": 127, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Design suggest to do when discussing the conceptual design of the remote control?", "answer": "When discussing the conceptual design of the remote control, the group noticed that the energy source was also a problem worth concern. The Industrial Design proposed to make it rechargeable at first, but because of their limited budget, he had to change his idea. The Industrial Design then put forward to setting a station at home or perhaps just using normal batteries to run the remote control, both of which would be feasible."}, {"id": 128, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "Summarize the button layout, the shape and the appearance of the remote control.", "answer": "The User Interface drew a draft for the group to get a more direct idea about the button layout. Through a brief discussion, they agreed that as long as they made the button clear enough to be recognized, it would not matter much where the exact button was. The group also thought about a remote control which was able to be folded, in order to test if it would be strong enough to stand hit."}, {"id": 129, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello . Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello . Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to put it exactly on the on the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Plate ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I took your mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Should I bring my uh pen too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah just {disfmarker} yeah , no ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's for me , I just have to make some notes . I got my uh mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I also forgot my mouse ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mouse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I don't need my mouse , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . There we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My laptop is crashing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Damn computers . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Cr"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Help help help ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Let's just check one more time . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can you hear me ? Hello ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh actually my laptop doesn't work ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Test ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} switch it on again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check . Okay . I think it works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Test test . Yes , it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you all read what we are going to do or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're gonna make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think my laptop is a bit"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "etchy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just made a a simple uh presentation . So you {gap} put some things in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . How does this work ? I dunno . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One uh {disfmarker} most to the right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes that one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Press F_ eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah cool . Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's my name , {gap} . Uh we're going to make uh a remote control , you already know that . Just have a look , are we going to {disfmarker} uh this agenda of our meeting . You know , this is about twenty five minutes , this meeting . So um the {gap} thing we have to know is you already know what we're going to do , you also read what this the things {disfmarker} or , not yet ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . So um , yeah , it has to be original , trendy , user-friendly {gap} that's what we're going to design . Uh first we have uh uh three steps of uh making the the remote control . Fir the first thing is th the functional design , that's very important . We have to look what the needs are , the effects of the functional design , and and how the mm the the remote control works , so that's where we're going to look in the functional design , it's for the f next meeting . The the second thing is the conceptual design , that's what it {disfmarker} that's uh the spe the specifications of the components and the properties and the specifications of the user interface . And we have to look what uh the market is doing for {disfmarker} what kind of uh remote controls are in the market . And the third thing is uh the detailed design um and that's exa yeah , you know what it is , it's exactly how it looks and whatever . {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} uh no , this is a {disfmarker} these are two smartboards , with the uh f uh s an introduction of that one . And you already saw {disfmarker} you know all that that you here can put uh things in the the red project uh map ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Folder ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Folder , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So no okay {gap} have a look at that one . Okay . So uh what we're going to do first is um so you can read . {vocalsound} You have to uh draw uh a favourite animal on the whiteboard"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um and say why it's your favourite animal . So and you have {disfmarker} this is just to try it out and we have to uh use a different pen colours and different thickness of the pen . So okay , so first have to show you , maybe you can come here to have a look how it works . Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah I can see it now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This a new page , it's okay . Use pen format . and a different colour can use here {gap} no I just take the pink . You take {disfmarker} oh there's no pink , okay , oh just purple , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Purple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No blue . And uh line width {vocalsound} ten . Okay uh just take {disfmarker} what I'm going to draw is an elephant . Just draw slowly , because otherwise it won't work . It's a very nice elephant , you can see . I dunno what it looks {disfmarker} but it doesn't matter . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Looks very nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just h"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something like this ? Oh no {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It look like a dinosaurs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} A pink elephant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I like {disfmarker} uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just takes so long , okay . Whatever , just . You erased this one . It's a bit slow you can see , this is a bit annoying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so just for you guys just one of you can draw a painting if you want . Just don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let me try one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker} yeah , just u use it like that , yeah . That's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Okay and then uh what's the colour ? How do I do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's in format . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah . I'll take this one . Uh there has to be water ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it has to be an animal , so if that's it's {disfmarker} it should be a shna snake or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , but it's an animal it's an animal that lives in the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The water is important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I first uh draw the water ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . Okay , and now I make the animal . It's a fish ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . So . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is a worm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah , that's nice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , who next ? Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do you have to write down why {disfmarker} uh that doesn't matter , just {disfmarker} it's to get used to the whiteboard , but it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make a new blank new blank page ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well Paul ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Like this ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , not too far to the to the t pen top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "let's make it um a dog . Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you should hold your pen a bit more to the back , so that {disfmarker} no , to the {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's a pig ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A pig ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's a dog . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a dog ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A sheep ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh we d only have twenty five minutes , so {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Take it easy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay , I make a cat of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I was gonna make a cat too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Use your fantasy . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , not too quick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just hold it more more to the back then you don't have {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have it . I just draw too quick I think . Okay , that's it . More ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's okay , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to get used to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought these pens would be just um {disfmarker} uh you write it down and you download it to Word , you already did it or no ? No , not yet , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it {disfmarker} but you actually got to write on the paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really got to write on that paper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know , but I d I I thought it would be just in in in uh typed words in Word ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , it's a real pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that's not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it's just a picture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} it's just a picture . So {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not that cool as I th thought it would be ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y you can you can't edit in the {disfmarker} edit it in Word ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a donkey ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , what time did we start this meeting , I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think it was uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Half past ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Half past ten ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nice , eh ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , thank you . Now we just have to save everything , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is definitely the best one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so uh what we know is that we have to sell this uh remote control for about twenty five Euros . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Excuse me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {gap} . And uh we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros , so we have to uh use a big market in Europe . The production cost are about half the price of selling price ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Piece of cake ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million , I dunno . Uh so we're gonna have {gap} a little discussion about um what experience are with a remote control the {gap} and everything , so just have a look how it {disfmarker} we think about remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , my first question was does it have to be a {vocalsound} a universal remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's a good question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because we sell it uh uh uh lonely from the t and not with the television , we sell it uh apart ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker} I'm not I'm not sure ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's not mm {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it probably would be universal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Universal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And only television ? Or more devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think you can buy a a a universal uh remote control for twenty five Euros , so {disfmarker} not sure , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm , maybe , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I know uh you can buy a re a universal uh control for uh only twenty uh Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we we just say we just say that's universal remote control . Okay , perfect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh also for the V_C_R_ and uh D_V_D_ player"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just {disfmarker} so a lot of buttons {vocalsound} on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay . {vocalsound} Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just a T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} . so yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what what what's a remote control , it's just a black thing with some buttons on it , it's not {disfmarker} nothing very special , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we can try to make it special ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I th I thought about um making it the same uh style as the television , {gap} {disfmarker} we don't have uh the same television uh all the time , so uh that's no matter . {vocalsound} Um if we uh control the V_C_R_ and the D_V_D_ player player with it uh it has to be clear , because uh kids and uh elderly are gonna use it , so uh it's not only for the uh technical persons . Um I think it must be a very good control , so you can uh uh uh act uh {vocalsound} use it from uh everywhere in your room , the the infrared uh thing must be from very good quality ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's right . Should be a good point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Nothing {gap} N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And how big should it be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} It shouldn't be too big ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but I don't think we can make it too small , 'cause it has to have a lot of functions , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We can't make it smaller than the things we see now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just big enough for the buttons we have , that's that's it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Or we have to make something uh like uh mobile phones that you can uh fold it opem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe more trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you you you you think about uh uh one you can fold open ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fold open ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "where you can see uh more options . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , that's cool . Maybe for the D_V_D_ pla player or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , something uh on top , just dren general things like volume and T_V_ channels and inside things you don't use that often ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or you c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "O or you could th think of an uh uh a small touch screen on the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's good , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah b I wanted {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe be uh it's it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are buttons on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No you can make an uh manual in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or um maybe to keep it uh easy and uh small ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . But it's not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh like a a to have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's much uh {disfmarker} too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe it would ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but it's not reachable I think , touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we have to care for uh the strength of the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because uh uh remote controls are most uh things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often uh broken ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So . And if you have a touch screen in it , it's definitely too too fragile uh fragile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , too fragile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and a lots uh uh lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not uh kids uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . You can put games on your remote control . Whatever . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Kid-proof ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And uh how about the batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh should you put it in a recharger or a {disfmarker} just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh maybe that's a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ma maybe a home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just to put it on your television and just s recharge ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you never have to use any batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea , but yeah , we have to look at the price now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , how m how mu how how expensive uh is a normal recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh how much is your uh standards uh mobile phone recharger ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , if you buy it uh separately from your phone it's probably expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know what the project uh projection costs are for such a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe have {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh if you th look at the market , it's probably {disfmarker} it's still the best way just to put batteries in it , because maybe it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , 'cause well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but a home station is uh a really good idea , because uh lots of people are {disfmarker} uh lose their remote control and don't know where it is ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and now you can put it always at the same place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} Therefore it's a good idea , but maybe it's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe uh use it as a separate option . Sell it uh separately ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You can {disfmarker} yeah , you can buy it with it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but I have a mouse that's uh uh also uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you can change your batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The option , just the option , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I I set something on paper already , {gap} size , looks , uh usable , uh the buttons on usable places , uh the the on off button must be on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "uh it has to lay good in the hand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you you have to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it be {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} does it has to b have to be um uh like a different form than a normal remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know I don't know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I think we have to look at that ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause well you can do {gap} the standard way , but then you won't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can make it very special , to create our own um looks ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's very hard to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "N uh if if we want to make it special , we probably have to do a lot of testing , if it really works ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well you can um have uh {vocalsound} the basic things on the same place , like on off button on top and the T_V_ channels one two three four as a block , and then the volume uh obviously on t on top , so you can see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the rest is uh you don't use that often , so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it , it should be clear as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it doesn't matter what place it is on the remote control I think ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you can do something unique with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what we have to think about too is uh uh buttons that you use often are um maybe uh like when you fold it open , when you have it closed , you {vocalsound} can still uh do the th the functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah , what Paul already said ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just for the T_V_ and just the normal function , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on on top are the the basic options on top ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But n {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , but uh i {vocalsound} basically when I'm watching T_V_ I'm just using like five buttons or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if you fold it open {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe it's"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what I meant ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe it's very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it's very uh uh {disfmarker} what's it's called ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . If you if if you make to fold open it's or also an {disfmarker} uh the strength uh is not s as good as a normal uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} Maybe it's hard t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's right . So maybe we have to to uh keep it like mm a square , just normal remote control {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to close this uh to finish this uh meeting , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There's some more things . We have uh another thirty minutes , so then we're going to meet again . So you know what you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um for m for me uh the Marketing Expert , the user requirements uh specification , do I need to think as a user , a as a a a only the looks and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , what you want to do with it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think this {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} you have to n know if it's for s a T_V_ , a D_V_D_ player , all that things . Also from a user , but all these things together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's also about strength and uh for everything uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I also wrote down some stuff"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that you want on a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no maybe not not uh {gap} , that's not a f that's something for for for {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Technical fun fu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's not for you . Just if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "what's in the market , what's normal , uh what kind of uh buttons do you have ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do you want to do with your remote control , what do you need on your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I already wrote some down , some ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker} is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's already a document in the folder about it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So see you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , well done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the next time you have to uh put it exactly on the square , so {disfmarker} your laptop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh Paul . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Your fault ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ciao ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bye bye ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bye bye ."}], "query": "What did the User Interface suggest to do when discussing the button layout?", "answer": "When discussing the button layout, the User Interface drew a draft to show how to make the remote control more unique and attractive. He suggested to put several essential and useful buttons together in the same place, and others might be scattered on the remote control, on all of which there would be clear logos. As long as the button layout was user-friendly enough, the User Interface thought it did not really matter much where the buttons would be."}, {"id": 130, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What was the overall discussion of the meeting?", "answer": "In this meeting, the speakers addressed issues that related to their meeting annotation progress. They talked about the types and variability of the future meetings. This led to them speaking about how to use their recording equipment if they got groups outside of their own departments to record meetings. Additionally, they discussed how to handle the storage of meetings on disk. They eventually address how to handle speech overlap and speaker anonymity, which were two crucial issues."}, {"id": 131, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What were some of the ideas proposed about future meeting recordings?", "answer": "PhD F wanted the group to record different meetings with the same group to help in tasks such as summarization, the Professor D however, wanted random meeting participants to have diversity that would be instrumental in acoustical research."}, {"id": 132, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What was said on getting fluent English speakers?", "answer": "Postdoc E was championing the need to get proficient English speakers so as to allow for a stable language model. This did not mean limiting the type of accents that the speakers had but rather ensuring the speakers could proficiently follow the English grammar when they expressed themselves."}, {"id": 133, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What were the options that were discussed on the location of the recording equipment?", "answer": "One proposed solution was to set up another room in the linguistics department. This needed a dedicated partner and safety of the equipment for it to work. Professor D talked about making the equipment portable allowing it to be transported from meeting to meeting."}, {"id": 134, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What did the group say on portable equipment?", "answer": "The group wanted to introduce portable equipment so as to get more meetings from different groups. However, this was challenged by the complexity of setting up the recording equipment."}, {"id": 135, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What were Grad B\u2019s updates on meeting disk storage?", "answer": "Grad B said that archiving of the data by creating a clone had been done, though it took eleven hours. However, Grad B commented that accessing the data would be much faster. This archiving had freed ten gigabytes of free space. Additionally, two copies would be made: one offisite, another onsite."}, {"id": 136, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's looks strange ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "now we 're on and it seems to be working ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh there we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One two three four five six"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is weird ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "This looks good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's like when it 's been sitting for a long time or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker} I don't know what it is . But all {disfmarker} all I know is that it seems like every time I am up here after a meeting , and I start it , it works fine . And if I 'm up here and I start it and we 're all sitting here waiting to have a meeting , it gives me that error message and I have not yet sat down with {disfmarker} been able to get that error message in a point where I can sit down and find out where it 's occurring in the code ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Next time you get it maybe we should write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep , we will . One of these days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Was it a pause , or {disfmarker} ? OK . Was it on \" pause \" or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So uh {disfmarker} so the uh , the new procedural change that just got suggested , which I think is a good idea is that um , we do the digit recordings at the end . And that way , if we 're recording somebody else 's uh meeting , and a number of the participants have to run off to some other meeting and don't have the time , uh , then they can run off . It 'll mean we 'll get somewhat fewer uh , sets of digits , but um , I think that way we 'll cut into people 's time , um , if someone 's on strict time uh , less . So , I th I think {disfmarker} I think we should start doing that . Um , so , uh , let 's see , we were having a discussion the other day , maybe we should bring that up , about uh , the nature of the data that we are collecting . uh @ @ that uh , we should have a fair amount of data that is um , collected for the same meeting , so that we can , uh {disfmarker} I don't know . Wh - what {disfmarker} what were some of the points again about that ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Uh , well , OK , I 'll back up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , at the previous {disfmarker} at last week 's meeting , this meeting I was griping {vocalsound} about wanting to get more data and I {disfmarker} I talked about this with Jane and Adam , um , and was thinking of this mostly just so that we could do research on this data um , since we 'll have a new {disfmarker} this new student di does wanna work with us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "th the guy that was at the last meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And he 's already funded part - time , so we 'll only be paying him for sort of for half of the normal part - time ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What a deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And what 's he interested in , specifically ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So he 's {disfmarker} comes from a signal - processing background , but I liked him a lot cuz he 's very interested in higher level things , like language , and disfluencies and all kinds of eb maybe prosody ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "so he 's just getting his feet wet in that . Anyway , I thought OK , maybe we should have enough data so that if he starts {disfmarker} he 'd be starting in January , next semester that we 'd have , you know , enough data to work with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But , um , Jane and Adam brought up a lot of good points that just posting a note to Berkeley people to have them come down here has some problems in that you m you need to make sure that the speakers are who you want and that the meeting type is what you want , and so forth . So , I thought about that and I think it 's still possible , um , but I 'd rather try to get more regular meetings of types that we know about , and hear , then sort of a mish - mosh of a bunch of one {disfmarker} one - time {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , just because it would be very hard to process the data in all senses , both to get the , um {disfmarker} to figure out what type of meeting it is and to do any kind of higher level work on it , like well , I was talking to Morgan about things like summarization , or what 's this meeting about . I mean it 's very different if you have a group that 's just giving a report on what they did that week , versus coming to a decision and so forth . So . Then I was um , talking to Morgan about some {pause} new proposed work in this area , sort of a separate issue from what the student would be working on where I was thinking of doing some kind of summarization of meetings or trying to find cues in both the utterances and in the utterance patterns , like in numbers of overlaps and amount of speech , sort of raw cues from the interaction that can be measured from the signals and from the diff different microphones that point to sort of hot spots in the meeting , or things where stuff is going on that might be important for someone who didn't attend to {pause} listen to . And in that uh , regard , I thought we definitely w will need {disfmarker} it 'd b it 'd be nice for us to have a bunch of data from a few different domains , or a few different kinds of meetings . So this {disfmarker} this meeting is one of them , although I 'm not sure I can participate if I {disfmarker} You know , I would feel very strange being part of a meeting that you were then analysing later for things like summarization ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um , and then there are some others that menti that Morgan mentioned , like the front - end meeting {pause} and maybe a networking {pause} group meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yep . Yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're hoping that they 'll let us start recording regularly ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} So if that were the case then I think we 'd have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But basically , for anything where you 're trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} meaning out of the meeting , um , it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we didn't really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {disfmarker} rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries . And then we need a couple that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} {pause} We don't wanna just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group , but @ @ three or four different kinds ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "See , I 've never listened to the data for the front - end {pause} meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've only had three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK . But maybe that 's enough . So , in general , I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Now , let {disfmarker} l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I {disfmarker} I don't disagree with that , but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too . Uh , for other kinds of research , particularly the acoustic oriented research , I actually feel the opposite need . I 'd like to have lots of different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have uh too few people from my point of view . I 'd like to have many different speakers . So , um I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings , of somebody coming down from campus , and {disfmarker} and uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , sure , if we can get more from them , fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but if we only get one or two from each group , that still could be useful acoustically just because we 'd have close and distant microphones with different people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I definitely agree with that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I {disfmarker} can I say about that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers . Because I think if you just say {disfmarker} an And in particular , my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you 'd have so people who 'd have proficiency enough in English that {disfmarker} that uh , it would be useful for {disfmarker} for purposes {disfmarker} You know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But you know , I think I 've been {disfmarker} I 've I {disfmarker} I 've gathered data from undergrads at {disfmarker} on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you 'd get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you 'd have at all . And {disfmarker} and the English you 'd have {disfmarker} The language models would be really hard to build"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you want to i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "because it would not really be {disfmarker} it would be an interlanguage rather than {pause} than a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , OK , uh , first place , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think we 'd just want to have random people come down and talk to one another , I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I {disfmarker} I think that 's what we 're investigating ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "It has to be a {disfmarker} a pre - existing meeting , {pause} like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So I was {disfmarker} I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors uh , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh , senior uh , uh , d and uh , doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their {disfmarker} hold their meeting down here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's I think what we {disfmarker} and I agree with ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I see . Oh , interesting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , that 's the first point . The second point is um I think that for some time now , going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we 've worked with who had non - native accents and I th I think that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , oh . I 'm not saying accents . u The accent 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No , it 's more a matter of uh , proficiency , e e just simply fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I deal with people on {disfmarker} on campus who {disfmarker} I think sometimes people , undergraduates um in computer science uh , have language skills that make , you know {disfmarker} that their {disfmarker} their fluency and writing skills are not so strong ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ! You 're not talking about foreign language at all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , just talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You 're just talking about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , e I just think ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We all had the same thought ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but you know , it 's like when you get into the graduate level , uh , no problem . I mean , I 'm not saying accents ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then we 're completely gone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm say I 'm saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The {disfmarker} the habits are already burnt in ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , yeah . I 'm just saying fluency ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I think that , um {disfmarker} I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English . And {disfmarker} and I think if it 's a pre - existing meeting and it 's held in English , {comment} I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably OK if a few of the people don't have uh , g particularly good English skills ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , now can I {disfmarker} can I say the other aspect of this from my perspective which is that um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's this {disfmarker} this issue , you have a corpus out there , it should be used for {disfmarker} for multiple things cuz it 's so expensive to put together ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And if people want to approach {disfmarker} Um , i so I know {pause} e e {pause} You know this {disfmarker} The idea of computational linguistics and probabilistic grammars and all may not be the focus of this group ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "but the idea of language models , which are fund you know generally speaking uh , you know , t t terms of like the amount of benefit per dollar spent or an hour invested in preparing the data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "if you have a choice between people who are pr more proficient in {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} um , i more fluent , more {disfmarker} more close to being academic English , then it would seem to me to be a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I guess {disfmarker} I maybe {disfmarker} Hmm . I"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Because otherwise y you don't have the ability to have {disfmarker} Uh , so if {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of idiolects that 's the worst possible case . If you have people who are using English as a {disfmarker} as an interlanguage because they {disfmarker} they don't {disfmarker} uh , they can't speak in their native languages and {disfmarker} but their interlanguage isn't really a match to any existing , uh , language model ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "this is the worst case scenario ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's pretty much what you 're going to have in the networking group ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "because {disfmarker} because they {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} the network group is almost entirely Germans and Spaniards ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well Oh . But the thing is , I think that these people are of high enough level in their {disfmarker} in their language proficiency that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I 'm not objecting to accents ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just thinking that we have to think at a {disfmarker} at a higher level view , could we have a language model , a {disfmarker} a grammar {disfmarker} a grammar , basically , that um , wo would be a {disfmarker} a possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So y so if you wanted to bring in a model like Dan Jurafsky 's model , an and do some top - down stuff , it {disfmarker} to help th the bottom - up and merge the things or whatever , uh , it seems like um , I don't see that there 's an argument {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I think is that why not have the corpus , since it 's so expensive to put together , uh , useful for the widest range of {disfmarker} of central corp things that people generally use corpora for and which are , you know , used in computational linguistics ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's my point . Which {disfmarker} which includes both top - down and bottom - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , well , i i let 's {disfmarker} let 's see what we can get . I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} I think that if we 're aiming at {disfmarker} at uh , groups of graduate students and professors and so forth who are talking about things together , and it 's from the Berkeley campus , probably most of it will be OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , that 's fine . That 's fine . Exactly . And my point in m in my note to Liz was I think that undergrads are an iff iffy population ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but {disfmarker} OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I definitely agree with that , I mean , for this purpose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , not to mention the fact that I would be hesitant certainly to take anyone under eighteen , probably even an anyone under twenty - one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Grads and professors , fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , you age - ist !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "What 's that ? Well , age - ist . {comment} The \" eighteen \" is because of the consent form ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Age - ist ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We 'd hafta get {disfmarker} find their parent to sign for them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Age - ist \" . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I have a {disfmarker} uh , um , question . Well , Morgan , you were mentioning that Mari may not use the k equipment from IBM if they found something else , cuz there 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} yeah , they 're d they 're uh {disfmarker} assessing whether they should do that or y do something else , hopefully over the next few weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Cuz I mean , one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment , if she weren't using it , could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And {disfmarker} and I mean , there {disfmarker} there may be a lot more {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or in psych , or in comp wherever , in another building where we could um , record people there . I think we 'd have a better chance"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think we 'd need a real motivated partner to do that . We 'd need to find someone on campus who was interested in this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , but {disfmarker} Right . But if there were such a {disfmarker} I mean it 's a remote possibility , then um , you know , one of us could you know , go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So it 's just a just a thought if they end up not using the {disfmarker} the hardware ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , the other thing {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . But . Um , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I know that space is really scarce on {disfmarker} at least in CS . You know , to {disfmarker} to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But you may not need a separate room , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "the idea is , if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth , and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "True . Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think it 's not out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Um . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "another type of meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you need , uh , another portable thing a another portable equipment to {disfmarker} to do , eh , more e easier the recording process , eh , out from ICSI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh and probably . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , if you {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} to record , eh , a seminar or a class , eh , in the university , you {disfmarker} you need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It - it would be eh eh very difficult to {disfmarker} to put , {vocalsound} eh , a lot of , eh , head phones eh in different people when you have to {disfmarker} to record only with , eh , this kind of , eh , d device ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} I think if we {disfmarker} if we wanna just record with the tabletop microphones , that 's easy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ? That 's very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ye - Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's not the corpus that we 're collecting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Actually , that 's a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that 's maybe worth repeating . We realized that , um , when we were talking about this that , OK , there 's these different things that we want to do with it . So , um , it 's true that we wanna be selective in some ways , uh , the way that you were speaking about with , uh , not having an interlingua and uh , these other issues . But on the other hand , it 's not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it . So , a a as per the example that we wanna have a fair amount that 's done with a small n recorded with a small , uh , typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that 's , uh , just one or two meetings of each of a {disfmarker} of a range of them and that 's OK too . Uh , i We realized in discussion that the other thing is , what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean , we really wanna have a substantial amount recorded this way , that 's why we did it . But {pause} what about {disfmarker} For th for these issues of summarization , a lot of these higher level things you don't really need the distant microphone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right , I mean , I c I think there 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you don't really need the close microphone , you mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You actually don't ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yea - yeah yeah , you actually don't really even need any fancy microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which one did you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You d You don't ne it doesn't {disfmarker} you just need some microphone , somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ye - Yeah . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can use found data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape recorder ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You {disfmarker} you can ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You need some microphone ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "You can"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "use {disfmarker} Um , but I think that any {pause} data that we spend a lot of effort {nonvocalsound} to collect ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "you know , each person who 's interested in {disfmarker} I mean , we have a cou we have a bunch of different , um , slants and perspectives on what it 's useful for , um , they need to be taking charge of making sure they 're getting enough of the kind of data that they want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And {disfmarker} So in my case , um , I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Not enough for others , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And so {nonvocalsound} I 'm looking and thinking , \" Well I 'd be glad to walk over and record people and so {nonvocalsound} forth if it 's {disfmarker} to help th in my interest . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "And other people need to do that for themselves , uh , h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think that {disfmarker} I 'm raising that cuz I think it 's relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about , \" Well , gee , we have this really complicated setup to do , \" well maybe you don't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For some of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Maybe if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If really all you want is to have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a recording that 's good enough to get a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a transcription from later , you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , we {disfmarker} we could have a fairly {disfmarker} We could just get a DAT machine and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I agree with {nonvocalsound} Jane , though , on the other hand that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So that might be true , you may say for instance , summarization , or something that sounds very language oriented . You may say well , \" Oh yeah , you just do that from transcripts of a radio show . \" I mean , you don't even need the speech signal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But what you {disfmarker} what I was thinking is long term what would be neat is to be able to pick up on um {disfmarker} Suppose you just had a distant microphone there and you really wanted to be able to determine this . There 's lots of cues you 're not gonna have ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So I {pause} do think that long term you should always try to satisfy the greatest number of {disfmarker} of interests and have this parallel information , which is really what makes this corpus powerful ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Special ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I agree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise , you know , lots of other sites can propose {disfmarker} individual studies , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh but I {disfmarker} I think that the uh {vocalsound} i We can't really underestimate the difficulty {disfmarker} shouldn't really u underestimate the difficulty of getting a setup like this up ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , {disfmarker} uh it took quite a while to get that together and to say , \" Oh , we 'll just do it up there , \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're talking about something simple , where you throw away a lot of these dimensions , then you can do that right away . Talking about something that has all of these different facets that we have here , it won't happen quickly , it won't be easy , and there 's all sorts of issues about th you know {vocalsound} keeping the equipment safe , or else hauling it around , and all sorts of o"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So then maybe we should {nonvocalsound} {pause} try to bring people here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think the first priority should be to pry {comment} to get {disfmarker} try to get people to come here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I mean , that 's that 's {disfmarker} OK , so"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're set up for it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The room is {disfmarker} is really , uh , underused ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I thought the free lunch idea was a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I thought so too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Free lunch is good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} And I think we can get people to come here , that {disfmarker} But the issue is you definitely wanna make sure that the kind of group you 're getting is the right group so that you don't waste a lot of your time {nonvocalsound} and the overhead in bringing people down ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No crunchy food ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "So {disfmarker} {comment} Well , it would be {pause} lunch afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I was thinking , lunch after ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right . And they 'd have to do their digits or they don't get dessert ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , they have to do their digits or they don't {comment} get {disfmarker} they don't {comment} get their food ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had a {disfmarker} I spoke with some people up at Haas Business School who volunteered ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Should I pursue that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , definitely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . So . They {disfmarker} they originally {disfmarker} They 've decided not to do {disfmarker} go into speech ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm not sure whether they 'll still be so willing to volunteer , but I 'll send an email and ask ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'll tell them about the free lunch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they 'll say there 's no such thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I 'd love to get people that are not linguists or engineers , cuz these are both weird {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The oth the other h"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "well , I know , I shouldn't say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's alright . No , the they {disfmarker} they 're very weird ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "We need a wider sampling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" Beep . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , \" beep \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The problem with engineers is \" beep . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} They make funny sounds . The o the o the other {disfmarker} The other thing is , uh , that we {disfmarker} we talked about is give to them {disfmarker} uh , burn an extra CD - ROM ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Let them have their meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and give them {disfmarker} So if they want a {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} basically and audio record of their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , I thought that was {disfmarker} I thought he meant , \" Give them a music CD , \" like they g {vocalsound} Then he said a CD of the {disfmarker} of their speech"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "and I guess it depends of what kind of audience you 're talking to , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know , I personally {nonvocalsound} would not want a {nonvocalsound} CD {comment} of my meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm . Of the meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "but {vocalsound} maybe {disfmarker} yeah , {pause} maybe you 're"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If you 're having some planning meeting of some sort and uh you 'd like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right . {comment} Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 'd be fun . I think it would just be fun , you know , if nothing else , you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It 's a novelty item ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it als It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also I think builds up towards the goal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We 're saying , \" Look , you know , you 're gonna get this . Is - is isn't that neat . Then you 're gonna go home with it . It 's actually p It 's probably gonna be pretty useless to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but you 'll ge appreciate , you know , where it 's useful and where it 's useless ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and then , we 're gonna move this technology , so it 'll become useful . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "No , I think that 's a great idea , actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you could tell them that you 'll give them the {disfmarker} the transcripts when they come back ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Alth"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "But we might need a little more to incentivize them , {comment} that 's all ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , yeah . I mean , anyone can have the transcripts . So . I thought we could point that out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I hav I have to uh raise a little eensy - weensy concern about doing th giving them the CD immediately , because of these issues of , you know , this kind of stuff , {comment} where maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Good point . That 's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} so we can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could burn it after it 's been cleared with the transcript stage ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "r Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then they {disfmarker} they get a CD , but just not the same day ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "If {disfmarker} It should be the same CD - ROM that we distribute publically ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's a good point . Right , it can't be the internal one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Although it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise they 're not allowed to play it for anyone ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , I like that . Well put . Well put . So , after the transcript screening phase ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Things have been weeded out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Otherwise we 'd need two lawyer stages ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right , say {comment} \" Yeah , well , I got this CD , and , Your Honor , I {disfmarker} \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah so that 's {disfmarker} so let 's start with Haas , and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "Sorry to have to {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Sorry I have to {pause} leave ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD F", "content": "I will be here full - time next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , see you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's alright ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "See you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see . So that was that topic , and {vocalsound} then um , I guess another topic would be {vocalsound} where are we in the whole disk resources {pause} question for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have uh enough sp room to record meetings . So I uh did a bunch of archiving , and still doing a bunch of archiving , I {disfmarker} I 'm in the midst of doing the P - files from uh , {vocalsound} Broadcast News . and it took eleven hours {comment} {vocalsound} to do {disfmarker} to uh copy it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And it 'll take another eleven to do the clone ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where did you copy it to ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , it 's Abbott . It 's Abbott , so it just {disfmarker} But it 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of data ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Sk - It 's copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Tape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tape ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , on the tape ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I did an archive ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So I 'm archiving it , and then I 'm gonna delete the files ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eleven hours ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , the archiving m {pause} program does take a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . And so one That {disfmarker} that will be done , like , in about two hours . And so uh , {vocalsound} at that point we 'll be able to record five more meetings . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "One thing {disfmarker} The good news about that {disfmarker} that is that once {disfmarker} once it 's archived , it 's pretty quick to get back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The other direction is fast , but this direction is really slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , especially because I 'm generating a clone , also ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . And that takes a while ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Generating a clone ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Two copies ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One offsite , one onsite ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! Hunh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , what will uh {disfmarker} Is the plan to g {pause} to {disfmarker} So {pause} stuff will be saved , it 's just that you 're relocating it ? I mean , so we 're gonna get more disk space ? Or did I {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} these are the P - files from Broadcast News , which are regeneratable {disfmarker} regeneratable"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Oh , good . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "um , if we really need to , but we had a lot of them . And {disfmarker} for the full , uh , hundred forty hour sets ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so they {disfmarker} they were two gigabytes per file and we had six of them or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "W w we are getting more space . We are getting , uh , another disk rack and {disfmarker} and four thirty - six gigabyte disks . Uh {pause} so {pause} uh {pause} but that 's not gonna happen instantaneously ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wonderful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or maybe six ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Or maybe six ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The SUN , ha uh , takes more disks than the Andatico one did . The SUN rack takes {disfmarker} {comment} Th - One took four and one took six , or maybe it was eight and twelve . Whatever it was , it was , {pause} you know , fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "How many {disfmarker} How much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is there a difference in price or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , what happened is that we {disfmarker} we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years , according to Dave , and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And so , uh , we 're looking into other vendors . \" We \" {disfmarker} By \" we \" of course I mean Dave ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm . I 've been looking at the , uh , Aurora data and , um , first {disfmarker} first look at it , there were basically three directories on there that could be moved . One was called Aurora , one was Spanish , which was Carmen 's Spanish stuff , and the other one was , um , SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "SPINE ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so , um , I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non - backed - up disk . So , um , I realized that well , probably not all of that should be moved , just {pause} the {pause} CD - ROM type data , the {disfmarker} {pause} the static data . So I moved that , and then um , I asked him to check out and see if it was OK . before I actually deleted the old stuff , um , but I haven't heard back yet . I told him he could delete it if he wanted to , I haven't checked {pause} today to see if he 's deleted it or not . And then Carmen 's stuff , I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA , I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data . And so , I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data . And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk . And then I lo haven't done any of the Aurora stuff . I have to meet with , uh , Stephane to do that . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , but , uh y you 're figuring you can record another five meetings or something with the space that you 're clearing up from the Broadcast News , but , we have some other disks , some of which you 're using for Aurora , but are we g do we have some other {disfmarker} other space now ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . So , so , uh , we have space on the current disk right now , where Meeting Recorder is , and that 's probably enough for about four meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that the one that has {disfmarker} is that DC ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . Yep . No , no , well , it 's wherever the Meeting Recorder currently is . I think it 's DI ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I {disfmarker} but the stuff I 'm moving from Aurora is on the DC disk that we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't remember . Th - I think it 's DC - It 's whatever that one is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , DC ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I just don't remember , it might be DC ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that has enough for about four more meetings right now . Yeah , I mean we were at a hundred percent and then we dropped down to eighty - six for reasons I don't understand ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , someone deleted something somewhere . And so we have some room again . And then with Broadcast News , that 's five or six more meetings , so , you know , we have a couple weeks . Uh , so , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think we 're OK , until we get the new disk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So should , um {disfmarker} One question I had for you was , um , we need {disfmarker} {pause} we sh probably should move the Aurora an and all that other stuff off of the Meeting Recorder disk . Is there another backed - up {pause} disk that you know of that would {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We should put it onto the Broadcast News one . That 's probably the best thing to do . And that way we consolidate Meeting Recorder onto one disk {pause} rather than spreading them out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . Right . Right . Do you know what {disfmarker} happen to know what disk that is off {disfmarker} ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . I mean , I can tell you , I just don't know off the top of my head ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK . Alright , I 'll find out from you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , so we could ' jus just do that at the end of today , once the archive is complete , and I 've verified it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cuz that 'll give us plenty of disk ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , OK , @ @ {comment} So , uh , then I guess th the last thing I 'd had on my {disfmarker} my agenda was just to hear {disfmarker} hear an update on {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} what Jose has been doing ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have , eh , {vocalsound} The result of my work during the last days ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Thank you for your information because I {disfmarker} I read . Eh , and the {disfmarker} the last , eh , days , eh , I work , eh , in my house , eh , in a lot of ways and thinking , reading eh , different things about the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recording project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And I have , eh , some ideas . Eh , this information is very {disfmarker} very useful . Because {vocalsound} you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the distribution , now ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'm glad to hear it . Glad to hear it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But for me , eh is interesting because , eh , eh , here 's i is the demonstration of the overlap , eh , {pause} problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 've seen it already ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's a real problem , {comment} a frequently problem {comment} uh , because you have overlapping zones eh , eh , eh , all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Throughout the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , by a moment I have , eh , nnn , the , eh , {pause} n I {disfmarker} I did a mark of all the overlapped zones in the meeting recording , with eh , a exact {pause} mark ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , you did that by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Heh ? That 's eh , yet b b Yeah , by {disfmarker} b b by hand {disfmarker} by hand because , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} \" Why . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Can I see that ? Can I get a copy ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "My {disfmarker} my idea is to work {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don I don't @ @ {disfmarker} I don't know , eh , if , eh , it will be possible because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't a lot {disfmarker} eh , enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to work . uh , only just eh , six months , as you know , but , eh , my idea is , eh , is very interesting to {disfmarker} to work {pause} in {disfmarker} in the line of , eh , automatic segmenter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh but eh , eh , in my opinion , {pause} we need eh , eh , a reference {pause} eh session to {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to evaluate the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the tool ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yes , absolutely . And so are you planning to do that or have you done that already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} No , no , with i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Have you done that or are you planning to do that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ? No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} plan to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . Darn !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I plan {disfmarker} I plan , but eh , eh , the idea {vocalsound} is the {disfmarker} is the following . Now , {vocalsound} eh , I need ehm , {vocalsound} to detect eh all the overlapping zones exactly . I {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} I will eh , talk about eh , {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the blackboard about the {disfmarker} my ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Duration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} This information eh , with eh , exactly time marks eh , for the overlapping zones {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} overlapping zone , and eh , a speaker {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a pure speech eh , eh , speaker zone . I mean , eh zones eh of eh speech of eh , one speaker without any {disfmarker} any eh , noise eh , any {disfmarker} any acoustic event eh that eh , eh , w eh , is not eh , speech , real speech . And , I need t true eh , silence for that , because my {disfmarker} my idea is to {disfmarker} to study the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the set of parameters eh , what , eh , are more m more discriminant to eh , classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the overlapping zones in cooperation with the speech {pause} eh zones . The idea is {pause} to eh {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} eh , I 'm not sure to {disfmarker} eh yet , but eh my idea is to use a {disfmarker} a cluster {pause} {vocalsound} eh algorithm or , nnn , a person strong in neural net algorithm to eh {disfmarker} to eh study what is the , eh , the property of the different feat eh feature , eh , to classify eh speech and overlapping eh speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is eh , it would be interesting to {disfmarker} to have eh , {vocalsound} a control set . And my control set eh , will be the eh , silence , silence without eh , any {disfmarker} any noise ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Which means that we 'd still {disfmarker} You 'd hear the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , fans ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , acoustic with this . {comment} With {disfmarker} with , yeah , the background ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . {comment} That 's interesting . This is like a ground level , with {disfmarker} It 's not it 's not total silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I {disfmarker} I mean eh , noise eh , eh claps eh , tape clips , eh , the difference eh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , eh , event eh , which , eh , eh , has , eh eh , a hard effect of distorti spectral distortion in the {disfmarker} in the eh {pause} speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So {disfmarker} so you intend to hand - mark those and exclude them ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I have mark in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker} Not in all {disfmarker} in all the {disfmarker} the file ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "only eh , eh , nnn , {pause} mmm , I have eh , ehm {pause} I don't remind {comment} what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quantity , but eh , I {disfmarker} I have marked enough speech on over and all the overlapping zones . I have , eh , {pause} two hundred and thirty , more or less , overlapping zones , and is similar to {disfmarker} to this information ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whew ! Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because with the program , I cross {pause} the information of uh , of Jane {comment} with eh , my my segmentation by hand . And {pause} is eh , mor more similar ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excellent . Glad to hear it . Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Sorry , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Go ahead ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And the {disfmarker} the idea is , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I will use , eh , {disfmarker} I want {disfmarker} {pause} My idea is , eh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} {comment} {nonvocalsound} to classify ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I should 've {pause} got the digital camera . Oh well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I need eh , the exact eh , mark of the different , eh , eh , zones because I {disfmarker} I want to put , eh , for eh , each frame a label {pause} indicating . It 's a sup supervised and , eh , hierarchical clustering process . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I put , eh , eh , for each frame {nonvocalsound} a label indicating what is th the type , what is the class , eh , which it belong ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , I mean , the class you will {nonvocalsound} overlapping speech \" overlapping \" is a class , eh , \" speech \" {nonvocalsound} @ @ the class {pause} that 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Nonspeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "These will be assigned by hand ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ha I h I {disfmarker} I put the mark by hand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Based on the {disfmarker} Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because , eh , {vocalsound} my idea is , eh , in {disfmarker} in the first session , I need , eh , {pause} I {disfmarker} I need , eh , to be sure that the information eh , that , eh , I {disfmarker} I will cluster , is {disfmarker} is right . Because , eh , eh , if not , eh , I will {disfmarker} I will , eh , return to the speech file to analyze eh , what is the problems ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , training , and validation . Sure . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh . And {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I 'd prefer {disfmarker} I would prefer , the to {disfmarker} to have , eh , this labeled automatically , but , eh , eh , fro th I need truth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You need truth . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , but this is what you 're starting with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 've gotta ask you . So , uh , the difference between the top two , i So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I start at the bottom , so \" silence \" is clear . By \" speech \" do you mean speech by one sp by one person only ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Speech {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So this is un OK , and then and then the top includes people speaking at the same time , or {disfmarker} or a speaker and a breath overlapping , someone else 's breath , or {disfmarker} or clicking , overlapping with speech {disfmarker} So , that {disfmarker} that 's all those possibilities in the top one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One or two or more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "One , two , three . but No , by th by the moment n Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , in the first moment , because , eh , eh , I {disfmarker} I have information , eh , of the overlapping zones , eh , information about if the , eh , overlapping zone is , eh , from a speech , clear speech , from a one to a two eh speaker , {pause} or three speaker , or is {disfmarker} is the zone where the breath of a speaker eh , overlaps eh , onto eh , a speech , another , especially speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's basi it 's basically speech wi som with {disfmarker} with something overlapping , which could be speech but doesn't need to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , es especially {pause} eh , overlapping speech {pause} from , eh , different eh , eh , speaker . Eh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "No , but there 's {disfmarker} but , I think she 's saying \" Where do you {disfmarker} In these three categories , where do you put the instances in which there is one person speaking and other sounds which are not speech ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which category do you put that in ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , that 's right . That 's my question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , he here I {disfmarker} I put eh speech from eh , from , eh , one speaker {pause} without , eh , eh , any {disfmarker} any {disfmarker} any events more ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , so where do you put speech from one speaker that does have a nonspeech event at the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where ? Where {disfmarker} What is the class ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which catege which category ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Like a c"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . By the moment , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that 's what he was saying before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} by the @ @ no , @ @ because I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to limit the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} nnn , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , so you {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not marked ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . So you don't {disfmarker} i i it 's not in that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Got it . Fine . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're not using all of the data ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , so that 's what he was saying before , is that he excluded those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The {disfmarker} All {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , you mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So you 're ignoring overlapping events unless they 're speech with speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , be Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Why ? Why ? What 's the reason ? \" because {pause} i it 's the first study . the first"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , no {disfmarker} no , it 's a perfectly sensible way to go . We just wondered {disfmarker} trying to understand what {disfmarker} what you were doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We 're just"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah cuz you 've talked about other overlapping events in the past ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} a subset ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . In the {disfmarker} in the future , the {disfmarker} the idea is to {disfmarker} to extend {pause} the class ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "to consider all the {disfmarker} all the information , you {disfmarker} you mentioned before"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't think we were asking for that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , the {disfmarker} the first idea {disfmarker} Because eh , I don't know {pause} what hap what will happen {comment} with the study ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We were jus just trying to understand {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , we just wanted to know what the category was here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is your silence category pure silence , or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . i it 's pure {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if there was a door - slam or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , no , it 's pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Pure silence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the control set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ? It 's the control set . It 's pure si pure silence {comment} with the {disfmarker} with the machine on the {disfmarker} on the roof ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What you {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} w {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think what you m I think what you mean {vocalsound} is that it 's nonspeech segments that don't have impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With the fan ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Cuz you 're calling {disfmarker} what you 're calling \" event \" is somebody coughing {vocalsound} or clicking , or rustling paper , or hitting something , which are impulsive noises ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But steady - state noises are part of the background ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Which , are being , included in that . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "h here yet , yet I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh , there are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} some kind of noises that , eh , don't {disfmarker} don't wanted to {disfmarker} to be in that , eh , in that control set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's like a signal - noise situation . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I prefer , I prefer at {disfmarker} at the first , eh , the {disfmarker} the silence with eh , this eh this kind of the {disfmarker} of eh {disfmarker} of noise ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , steady state ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right , it 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} \" Background \" might be {disfmarker} might be a better word than \" silence \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's just sort of that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the background acoustic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Fine . Go on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is only {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , um , with this information {vocalsound} The idea is eh , eh , nnn , I have a label for {disfmarker} for each , eh , frame and , eh with a cluster eh {disfmarker} algorithm I {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , we needed to get the categories , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry . And eh I am going {pause} to prepare a test bed , eh , well , eh , a {disfmarker} a set of {pause} feature structure eh , eh , models ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {pause} my idea is"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "\" Tone \" , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} because I have a pitch extractor yet ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I have to {disfmarker} to test , but eh I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You have your own ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I ha I have prepare . Is a modified version of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of a pitch tracker , eh , from , eh , Standar - eh Stanford University {disfmarker} in Stanford ? No . From , eh , em , {vocalsound} Cambridge {pause} University ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! What 's it written in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , em , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't remember what is the {disfmarker} the name of the {disfmarker} of the author , because I {disfmarker} I have several {disfmarker} I have eh , eh , em , eh , library tools , from eh , Festival and {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} from Edinburgh eh , from Cambridge , eh , and from our department ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} And I have to {disfmarker} because , {vocalsound} in general the pitch tracker , doesn't work {comment} {vocalsound} very well and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Bad . Right . But , you know , as a feature , it might be OK . So , we don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} And {pause} th the idea is to {disfmarker} to , eh , to obtain , eh , {pause} for example , eh , {pause} {vocalsound} eh diff eh , eh , different {disfmarker} well , no , a great number of eh FEC for example , eh , {pause} eh , twenty - five , eh , thirty {disfmarker} thirty parameters , eh , for {disfmarker} for each one . And in a first eh , nnn , step in the investi in the research in eh , my idea is try to , eh , to prove , what is the performance of the difference parameter , eh {pause} to classify {pause} the different , eh , what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the front - end approach to classify eh , the different , eh , frames of each class {pause} eh and what is the {disfmarker} the , nnn , nnn , nnn , eh , what is the , the error {pause} eh , of the data"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Supervised clustering . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "This is the {disfmarker} the eh , first idea"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and the second {pause} is try to {disfmarker} eh , to use {pause} some ideas eh , similar to the linear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh ? Eh , similar , because the the idea is to {disfmarker} to study {pause} what is the contribution of eh , each parameter to the process of classify correctly the different {disfmarker} the different parameters ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm . What sort of classifier ar ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the classifier is {disfmarker} nnn by the moment is eh {disfmarker} is eh , similar , nnn , that the classifier used eh , in a quantifier {disfmarker} vectorial quantifier is eh , used to {disfmarker} to eh , some distance {pause} to {disfmarker} to put eh , a vector eh , in {disfmarker} in a class different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Unimodal ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yeah ? W with a model , is {disfmarker} is only to cluster using a eh , @ @ or a similarity ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So is it just one cluster per {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A another possibility it to use eh a netw netw a neural network ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But eh what 's the p {vocalsound} What is my idea ? What 's the problem I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I see in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} you use the {disfmarker} the neural network ? If {disfmarker} w when {pause} this kind of eh , mmm , cluster , clustering algorithm to can test , to can eh observe what happened you {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} you can't eh , eh put up with your hand {comment} in the different parameter ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right , you can't analyse it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh {disfmarker} If you use a neural net is {disfmarker} is a good idea , but eh you don't know what happened in the interior of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , actually , you can do sensitivity analyses which show you what the importance of the different parce pieces of the input are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's hard to {disfmarker} w w what you {disfmarker} It 's hard to tell on a neural net is what 's going on internally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's actually not that hard to analyse it and figure out the effects of different inputs , especially if they 're all normalized ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , using something simpler first I think is probably fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , this isn't tru if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you really wonder what different if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Decision tree ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , then a decision tree is really good , but the thing is here he 's {disfmarker} he 's not {disfmarker} he 's not like he has one you know , a bunch of very distinct variables , like pitch and this {disfmarker} he 's talking about , like , a all these cepstral coefficients , and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "in which case a a any reasonable classifier is gonna be a mess , and it 's gonna be hard to figure out what {disfmarker} what uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will include too the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the differential de derivates too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Deltas ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , I think the other thing that one {disfmarker} I mean , this is , I think a good thing to do , to sort of look at these things at least {disfmarker} See what I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} Let me tell you what I would do . I would take just a few features . Instead of taking all the MFCC 's , or all the PLP 's or whatever , I would just take a couple ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? Like {disfmarker} like C - one , C - two , something like that , so that you can visualize it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and look at these different examples and look at scatter plots ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so before you do {disfmarker} build up any kind of fancy classifiers , just take a look in two dimensions , at how these things are split apart ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That I think will give you a lot of insight of what is likely to be a useful feature when you put it into a more complicated classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the second thing is , once you actually get to the point of building these classifiers , {vocalsound} @ @ what this lacks so far is the temporal properties . So if you 're just looking at a frame and a time , you don't know anything about , you know , the structure of it over time , and so you may wanna build @ @ {disfmarker} build a Markov model of some sort uh , or {disfmarker} or else have features that really are based on um on {disfmarker} on some bigger chunk of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Context window ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But I think this is a good place to start . But don't uh anyway , this is my suggestion , is don't just , you know , throw in twenty features at it , the deltas , and the delta del and all that into some classifier , even {disfmarker} even if it 's K - nearest - neighbors , you still won't know"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "what it 's doing , even {disfmarker} You know it 's Uh , I think to know what it 's {disfmarker} to have a better feeling for what it 's"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "look at {disfmarker} at som some picture that shows you , \" Here 's {disfmarker} These things uh , uh are {disfmarker} offer some separation . \" {vocalsound} And , uh , in LPC , uh , the thing to particularly look at is , I think {disfmarker} is something {vocalsound} like , uh , the residual {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . S"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Can I ask ? It strikes me that there 's another piece of information um , that might be useful and that 's simply the transition . So , w if you go from a transition of silence to overlap versus a transition from silence to speech , there 's gonna be a b a big informative area there , it seems to me ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , because {disfmarker} Yeah yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah . But eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Is my my {disfmarker} my own vision , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the project ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So , some sort of {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder project , for me , has eh , two {vocalsound} eh , w has eh several parts , several p {vocalsound} objective"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh , because it 's a {disfmarker} a great project . But eh , at the first , in the acoustic , eh , eh , parts of the project , eh I think {pause} you eh {disfmarker} we have eh {vocalsound} {pause} two main eh objective . One {disfmarker} one of these is to {disfmarker} eh to detect the change , the acoustic change . And {vocalsound} for that , if you don't use , eh , {vocalsound} eh , a speech recognizer , eh broad class , or not broad class to {disfmarker} to try to {disfmarker} to {pause} {pause} {vocalsound} to label the different frames , I think {pause} the Ike criterion {pause} or BIC criterion eh will be enough to detect the change ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} Probably . {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to t prove . Uh , probably . When you you have , eh , eh s eh the transition of speech or {disfmarker} or silence eh to overlap zone , this criterion is enough with {disfmarker} {pause} probably with , eh , this kind of , eh , eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the more eh use eh {disfmarker} use eh {disfmarker} used eh em {pause} normal , regular eh parameter MF - MFCC . you {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to find {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the mark . You can find the {disfmarker} nnn , the {disfmarker} the acoustic change . But eh eh I {disfmarker} I understand that you {disfmarker} your objective is {pause} to eh classify , to know that eh that zone {pause} not is only {comment} a new zone in the {disfmarker} in the file , that eh you have eh , but you have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to know that this is overlap zone . because in the future you will eh try to {disfmarker} to process that zone with a non - regular eh eh speech recognizer model , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you will pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to process the overlapping z eh zone with another kind of algorithm"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to obtain the transcription {pause} from eh using eh eh a regular , normal speech recognizer . That , you know , {pause} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the idea . And so {vocalsound} eh the , nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the system {pause} eh will have two models ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Clustering ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "A model to detect more acc the mor most accurately possible that is p uh , will be possible the , eh {disfmarker} the mark , the change and another {disfmarker} another model will @ @ {pause} or several models , to try s but {disfmarker} eh several model eh robust models , sample models to try to classify the difference class ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , I didn't understand you {disfmarker} what you said . What {disfmarker} what model ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , the {disfmarker} the classifiers of the of the n to detect the different class to the different zones before try to {disfmarker} to recognize , eh with eh {disfmarker} to transcribe , with eh a speech recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And my idea is to use eh , for example , a neural net"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So p"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "with {pause} the {pause} information we obtain from this eh {disfmarker} this eh study of the parameter with the {pause} selected {pause} parameter to try to eh {disfmarker} to put the class of each frame . Eh {pause} for {pause} the difference {pause} zone"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "you {disfmarker} you eh , eh {pause} have obtained in the first eh , step {pause} with the {pause} for example , BIC eh , eh {pause} criterion compare model"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You I don't - u"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , but , I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} in any event we 're agreed that the first step is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Because what we had before for {disfmarker} for uh , speaker change detection did not include these overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So the first thing is for you to {disfmarker} to build up something that will detect the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? So again , I think the first thing to do to detect the overlaps is to look at these uh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} again , the things you 've written up there I think are way too {disfmarker} way too big ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ? If you 're talking about , say , twelfth {disfmarker} twelfth - order uh MFCC 's or something like that it 's just way too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You won't be able to look at it . All you 'll be able to do is put it into a classifier and see how well it does ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Whereas I think if you have things {disfmarker} if you pick one or two dimensional things , or three of you have some very fancy display , uh , and look at how the {disfmarker} the different classes separate themselves out , you 'll have much more insight about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get a feeling for what 's happening , you know ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "so if you look at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Suppose you look at first and second - order cepstral coefficients for some one of these kinds of things and you find that the first - order is much more effective than the second , {vocalsound} and then you look at the third and there 's not {disfmarker} and not too much there , {vocalsound} you may just take first and second - order cepstral coefficients ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? And with LPC , I think LPC per se isn't gonna tell you much more than {disfmarker} than {disfmarker} than the other , maybe . Uh , and uh on the other hand , the LPC residual , the energy in the LPC residual , {vocalsound} will say how well , uh {vocalsound} the low - order LPC {vocalsound} model 's fitting it , which should be {vocalsound} pretty poorly for two two or more {vocalsound} people speaking at the same time , and it should be pretty well , for w for {disfmarker} for one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} i again , if you take a few of these things that are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} prob um {comment} {pause} promising features and look at them in pairs , {vocalsound} uh , I think you 'll have much more of a sense of \" OK , I now have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , doing a bunch of these analyses , I now have ten likely candidates . \" And then you can do decision trees or whatever to see how they combine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I 've got a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . This"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh , eh {vocalsound} eh eh eh I don't know it is the first eh way to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} do that and I would eh like to {disfmarker} to know what eh , your opinion . Eh {vocalsound} all this study in the f in the first moment , I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I will pretend to do {comment} with eh eh equalizes speech . The {disfmarker} the equalizes speech , the speech eh , the mixes of speech ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "With {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "With what ? With what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Mixed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the {disfmarker} the mix , mixed speech ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "\" Mixed \" . Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eh , why ? Because eh the spectral distortion is {disfmarker} {comment} {pause} more eh {disfmarker} a lot eh clearer , very much clearer if we compare with the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "PDA speech file is eh {disfmarker} it will be eh difficult . I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So it 's messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "The {disfmarker} the PDA is messier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "fff ! {comment} Because the n the noise eh to sp the signal - to - noise relation is eh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is low ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I think that that 's a good way to start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know eh uh i i that eh the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the result of the {disfmarker} of the study eh with eh {disfmarker} with eh this eh {disfmarker} this speech , the mix speech eh {pause} will work {pause} exactly {pause} with the {pause} eh PDA files ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It would be interesting in itself to see . Well , I think that would be an interesting result ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh What , I {disfmarker} I mean , what what is the effect of the low ' signal to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to noise relation , you know , eh with {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "N u We Well , I think {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's not a {disfmarker} it 's not at all unreasonable . It makes sense to start with the simpler signal because if you have features which don't {disfmarker} aren't even helpful in the high signal - to - noise ratio , then there 's no point in putting them into the low signal ratio , one would think , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if you can get {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Uh again , my prescription would be that you would , with a mixed signal , you would take a collection of possible uh , features {vocalsound} look at them , look at how these different classes that you 've marked , separate themselves , {comment} {vocalsound} and then collect , uh in pairs , {vocalsound} and then collect ten of them or something , and then proceed {vocalsound} with a bigger classifier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then if you can get that to work well , then you go to the other signal . And then , and you and you know , they won't work as well , but how m you know , how much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then you can re - optimize , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . But it I think it would be interesting to try a couple with both . Because it {disfmarker} I think it would be interesting to see if some features work well with close mixed , and {disfmarker} And don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , yeah , yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's true that it also , it could be {vocalsound} useful to do this exploratory analysis where you 're looking at scatter plots and so on in both cases . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} the eh parameter we found , eh , eh {vocalsound} worked with both eh , speech file ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but eh what is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the relation of eh {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} performance when eh you use eh the , eh eh speech file the PDA speech files ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it will be important . Because eh people eh eh , different groups eh has eh experience with this eh kind of problem . Is {disfmarker} eh is not easy eh to {disfmarker} to solve , because if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have seen the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from eh PDA , and s some parts is {comment} very difficult because you {disfmarker} you don't see the spectrum {disfmarker} the spectrogram ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Yeah , they 're totally hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Is very difficult to apply eh , eh a parameter to detect change when you don't see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's another reason why very simple features , things like energy , and things {disfmarker} things like harmonicity , and {vocalsound} residual energy are uh , yeah are {disfmarker} are better to use than very complex ones because they 'll be more reliable ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But I suppose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Are probably better , yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will put eh the energy here . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ch - Chuck was gonna ask something I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You have a question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , I {pause} maybe this is a dumb question , but w I thought it would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I thought it would be easier if you used a PDA"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because can't you , couldn't you like use beam - forming or something to detect speaker overlaps ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , if you used the array , rather than the signal from just one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , no , you you 're {disfmarker} you 're right"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "that {disfmarker} In fact , if we made use of the fact that there are two microphones , you do have some location information . which we don't have with the one and {disfmarker} and so that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that not allowed with this project ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , no , I mean , we we don't have any rules , r really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I didn't mean {disfmarker} I w {pause} Given {disfmarker} given the goal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an additional interesting question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , is {disfmarker} is that violation of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , I think you wanna know whether you can do it with one , because you know it 's not necessarily true that every device that you 're trying to do this with will have two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if , on the other hand , we show that there 's a huge advantage with two , well then that could be a real point ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , we don't n even know yet what the effect of detecting {disfmarker} having the ability to detect overlaps is . You know , maybe it doesn't matter too much ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So , this is all pretty early stages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But no , you 're absolutely right . That 's {pause} a good thing to consider ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There {disfmarker} there is a complication though , and that is if a person turns their back to the {disfmarker} to the PDA , then some of the positional information goes away ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does , i it d it does , but the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue is that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And then , And if they 're on the access {disfmarker} {comment} on the axis of it , that was the other thing I was thinking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "He {disfmarker} You mentioned this last time , that {disfmarker} that if {disfmarker} if you 're straight down the midline , then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} the r the left - right 's gonna be different ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , we hav need to put it on a little turntable ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I th"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , it 's"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in his case , I mean , he 's closer to it anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems to me that {disfmarker} that it 's not {disfmarker} a p uh , you know , it 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the topograph the topology of it is {disfmarker} is a little bit complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But it 's another source of information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} I don't know ho"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} Sorry . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think because the the the distance between the two microph eh , microphone , eh , in the PDA is very near . But it 's uh {disfmarker} from my opinion , it 's an interesting idea to {disfmarker} to try to study the binaural eh problem eh , with information , because I {disfmarker} I found difference between the {disfmarker} the speech from {disfmarker} from each micro eh , in the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I would guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , it 's timing difference . It - it 's not amplitude ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah ! Oh I agree ! And we use it ourselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "right ? S Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , I know {disfmarker} I n I know that 's a very important cue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just saying that the way we 're seated around a table , is not the same with respect to each {disfmarker} to each person with respect to the PDA ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . No . No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "so we 're gonna have a lot of differences with ref respect to the speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} That 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But th I don't think that matters , though ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so i @ @ {comment} I think the issue is , \" Is there a clean signal coming from only one direction ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If it 's not coming from just one direction , if it {disfmarker} if th if there 's a broader pattern , it means that it 's more likely there 's multiple people speaking ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "wherever they are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So it 's sort of like how {disfmarker} how confused is it about where the beam is ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Is it a {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , is there a narrow {disfmarker} Is there a narrow beam pattern or is it a {disfmarker} a distributed beam pattern ? So if there 's a distributed beam pattern , then it looks more like it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh , multiple people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Wherever you are , even if he moves around ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Yeah . OK , it just {disfmarker} it just seemed to me that {disfmarker} uh , that this isn't the ideal type of separation . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} I can see the value o"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , ideal would be to have the wall filled with them , but I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But the thing is just having two mikes {disfmarker} If you looked at that thing on {disfmarker} on Dan 's page , it was {disfmarker} When {disfmarker} when there were two people speaking , and it looked really really different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh yeah yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What looked different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , well , basic he was looking at correlation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Cross - co cross - correlation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Correlation , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Just cross - correlation between two sides ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Did - Sorry , b uh I 'm not sure what Dan 's page is that you mean . He was looking at the two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So cross - correlation is pretty sensitive ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh , his a web page ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You take the signal from the two microphones and you cros and you cross - correlate them with different lags ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Subtract them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And you find {disfmarker} They get peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . So when one person is speaking , then wherever they happen to be at the point when they 're speaking , {vocalsound} then there 's a pretty big maximum right around that point in the l in {disfmarker} in the lag ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if {disfmarker} at whatever angle you are , {vocalsound} at some lag corresponding to the time difference between the two there , you get this boost in the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the cross - correlation value {disfmarker} function ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So {disfmarker} so if there 's two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And if there are multiple people talking , you 'll see two peaks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "It 's spread out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , let me ask you , if {disfmarker} if both people were over there , it would be less effective than if one was there and one was across , catty - corner ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . The - the {disfmarker} Oh , I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "if they 're right next to one another ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If I was {disfmarker} if I was here and Morgan was there and we were both talking , it wouldn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "i i"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Next {disfmarker} next one over n over {comment} on this side of the P {disfmarker} PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "There we go . Good example , the same one I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , e I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Versus you {disfmarker} versus {disfmarker} you know , and we 're catty - corner across the table , and I 'm farther away from this one and you 're farther away from that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even if , like , if people were sitting right across from each other , you couldn't tell the difference either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It seems like that would be pretty strong ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Across {disfmarker} the same axis , you don't have as much to differentiate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , we d yeah , we don't have a third dimension there . Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And so my point was just that it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be differentially {disfmarker} differentially varia valuable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I mean , it 's not to say {disfmarker} I mean , I certainly think it 's extremely val {comment} And we {disfmarker} we humans {pause} n n depend on {pause} you know , these {disfmarker} these binaural cues ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But it 's almost {disfmarker} but it 's almost a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think what you 're talking about i there 's two things ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Must do . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "There 's a sensitivity issue , and then there 's a pathological error uh issue . So th the one where someone is just right directly in line is sort of a pathological error ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "If someone just happens to be sitting right there then we won't get good information from it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . and i and if there {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} And if it 's the two of you guys on the same side {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , if they 're {disfmarker} if they 're close , it 's just a question of the sensitivity ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So if the sensitivity is good enough {disfmarker} and we just {disfmarker} we just don't have enough , uh , experience with it to know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . OK . Yeah yeah , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not trying to argue against using it , by any means . I just wanted to point out that {disfmarker} that weakness , that it 's topo topologically impossible to get it perfect for everybody ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And I think Dan is still working on it . So . He actually {disfmarker} he wrote me about it a little bit , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Great . No , I don't mean to discourage that at all ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , the other thing you can do {disfmarker} uh , if {disfmarker} I mean , i We 're assuming that it would be a big deal just to get somebody {disfmarker} convince somebody to put two microphones in the PDA . But if you h put a third in , {vocalsound} you could put in the other axis . And then you know {disfmarker} then you 're sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , then {disfmarker} then you pretty much could cover {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Once you got two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well what about just doing it from these mikes ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It will be more interesting to study the PZM because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the separation {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} {vocalsound} But - but that 's {disfmarker} I mean , we can we 'll be {disfmarker} all of this is there for us to study ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Then they 're much broader . Yeah , we can do whatever we want ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but the thing is , uh , one of the {disfmarker} at least one of the things I was hoping to get at with this is what can we do with what we think would be the normal situation if some people get together and one of them has a PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Whatever you 're interested in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what I was asking about , what are the constraints ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the constraint of one question that I think both Adam and I were {disfmarker} were {disfmarker} were interested in ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , but {disfmarker} you know if you can instrument a room , this is really minor league compared with what some people are doing , right ? Some people at {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} uh , yeah , at Brown and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} at uh {pause} um and at Cape ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Big micro @ @ arrays ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Didn't they have something at Cape ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "they both have these , you know , big arrays on the wall . And you know , if you could do that , you 've got microphones all over the place"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Very finely ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "uh , you know p tens of microphones , and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ! I saw a demo ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , right , oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And if you do that then you can really get very nice uh kind of selectivity {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh , I saw one that was like a hundred microphones , a ten by ten array ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} In a noisy room , they could have all kinds of noises and you can zoom right in on somebody ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And they had very precision ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Very complex , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ye - Pretty much . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was all in software and they {disfmarker} and you could pick out an individual beam and listen to it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That is cool ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "It was {disfmarker} yeah , it was interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But , the reason why I haven't focused on that as the fir my first concern is because um , I 'm interested in what happens for people , random people out in some random place where they 're p having an impromptu discussion . And you can't just always go , \" well , let 's go to this heavily instrumented room that we spent tens of thousands of dollars to se to set up \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , what you need to do is you 'd have a little fabric thing that you unroll and hang on a wall ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It has all these mikes and it has a plug - in jack to the PDA ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "The other thing actually , that gets at this a little bit of something else I 'd like to do , is what happens if you have two P D"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and they communicate with each other ? And then {disfmarker} You know , they 're in random positions , the likelihood that {disfmarker} I mean , basically there wouldn't be any {disfmarker} l likely to be any kind of nulls , if you even had two . If you had three or four it 's {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ooo !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's on my web pages ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Network !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Though {disfmarker} All sorts of interesting things you can do with that ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , not only can you do microphone arrays , but you can do all sorts of um multi - band as well ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I still like my rug on the wall idea , so if anybody patents that , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you could have strips that you stick to your clothing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "in terms of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hats ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "In terms of the research {pause} th research , it 's really {disfmarker} it 's whatever the person who is doing the research wants to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Shirts ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So if {disfmarker} if Jose is interested in that , that 's great . But if {disfmarker} if he 's not , that 's great too ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} i I {disfmarker} i I would actually kind of like us to wind it down , see if we can still get to the end of the , uh , birthdays thing there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Catch some tea ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , I had a couple things that I did wanna bring out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One is , do we need to sign new {disfmarker} these again ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it 's slightly different . So I {disfmarker} I would say it would be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Are they new ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , this morning we didn't sign anything cuz we said that if anybody had signed it already , we didn't have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I should 've checked with Jane first , but the ch the form has changed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So we may wanna have everyone sign the new form ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Ah - oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Um , I had some things I wanted to talk about with the thresholding stuff I 'm doing ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I had to make one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , if we 're in a hurry , we can put that off . Um and then also anonymity , how we want to anonymize the data . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , should I {disfmarker} I mean I have some results to present , but I mean I guess we won't have time to do that this time . But it seems like um the anonymization is uh , is also something that we might wanna discuss in greater length ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um . I mean , wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "If {disfmarker} if we 're about to wind down , I think {disfmarker} what I would prefer is that we uh , delay the anonymization thing till next week , and I would like to present the results that I have on the overlaps ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We still have to do this , too , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No - well , we don't have to do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , why don't we {disfmarker} Uh , so @ @ OK . @ @ {comment} It sounds like u uh , there were {disfmarker} there were a couple technical things people would like to talk about . Why don't we just take a couple minutes to {disfmarker} to briefly {comment} do them , and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and then we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go ahead , Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I 'd {disfmarker} Oh , I 'd prefer to have more time for my results . e Could I do that next week maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Oh , yeah . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , that 's what I 'm asking ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think the anonymization , if y if you want to proceed with that now , I just think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a discussion which also n really deserves a lo a {disfmarker} you know , more that just a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "We could s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I really do think that , because you raised a couple of possibilities yourself , you and I have discussed it previously , and there are different ways that people approach it , e and I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Alright . We 're {disfmarker} we 're just {disfmarker} We 're getting enough data now that I 'd sort of like to do it now , before I get overwhelmed with {disfmarker} once we decide how to do it"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "going and dealing with it ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . I {disfmarker} I 'll give you the short version , but I do think it 's an issue that we can't resolve in five minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the short thing is um , we have uh , tape recording uh , uh , sorry , digitized recor recordings . Those we won't be able to change . If someone says \" Hey , Roger so - and - so \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So that 's gonna stay that person 's name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like the transcript , the question becomes what symbol are you gonna put in there for everybody 's name , and whether you 're gonna put it in the text where he says \" Hey Roger \" or are we gonna put that person 's anonymized name in instead ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No , because then that would give you a mapping , and you don't wanna have a mapping ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , so first decision is , we 're gonna anonymize the same name for the speaker identifier and also in the text whenever the speaker 's name is mentioned ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "No . Because that would give you a mapping between the speaker 's real name and the tag we 're using , and we don't want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think you understood what I {disfmarker} what I said ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So {disfmarker} uh , so in {disfmarker} within the context of an utterance , someone says \" So , Roger , what do you think ? \" OK . Then , uh , it seems to me that {disfmarker} Well , maybe I {disfmarker} uh it seems to me that if you change the name , the transcript 's gonna disagree with the audio , and you won't be able to use that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , you don't wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We don't {disfmarker} we wanna {disfmarker} we ha we want the transcript to be \" Roger \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because if we made the {disfmarker} the transcript be the tag that we 're using for Roger , someone who had the transcript and the audio would then have a mapping between the anonymized name and the real name , and we wanna avoid that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK , well , but then there 's this issue of if we 're gonna use this for a discourse type of thing , then {disfmarker} and , you know , Liz was mentioning stuff in a previous meeting about gaze direction and who 's {disfmarker} who 's the addressee and all , then to have \" Roger \" be the thing in the utterance and then actually have the speaker identifier who was \" Roger \" be \" Frank \" , that 's going to be really confusing and make it pretty much useless for discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh . Ugh ! That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , if you want to , you know , I mean , in some cases , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I know that Susan Ervin - Tripp in some of hers , uh , actually did do uh , um , a filter of the s signal where the person 's name was mentioned , except"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah Yeah , once you get to the publication you can certainly do that ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} cer and I {disfmarker} So , I mean , the question then becomes one level back . Um , how important is it for a person to be identified by first name versus full name ? Well , on the one hand , uh , it 's not a full identity , we 're taking all these precautions , um and they 'll be taking precautions , which are probably even the more important ones , to {disfmarker} they 'll be reviewing the transcripts , to see if there 's something they don't like {disfmarker} {comment} OK . So , maybe , uh , maybe that 's enough protection . On the other hand , this is a small {disfmarker} this is a small pool , and people who say things about topic X e who are researchers and well - known in the field , they 'll be identifiable and simply from the {disfmarker} from the first name . However , taking one step further back , they 'd be identifiable anyway , even if we changed all the names ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So , is it really , um {disfmarker} {comment} You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , in terms of like {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I did some results , which I 'll report on n next time , which do mention individual speakers by name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , there , the Human Subjects Committee is very precise . You don't wanna mention subjects by name in published reports . Now , it would be very possible for me to take those data put them in a {disfmarker} in a study , and just change everybody 's name for the purpose of the publication . And someone who looked {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "You can go , you know , uh , \" Z \" {vocalsound} uh , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , exactly . Doesn't matter if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh . Um , yeah , I mean , t it doesn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not knowledgeable about this , but it certainly doesn't bother me to have someone 's first name in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's the same thing you saw ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK . "}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , I think {disfmarker} you don't wanna have their full name to be uh , listed ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and in the form that they sign , it does say \" your first name may arise in the course of the meetings \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . So again , th the issue is if you 're tracking discourse things , you know , if someone says , uh , uh , \" Frank said this \" and then you wanna connect it to something later , you 've gotta have this part where that 's \" Frank colon \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or \" your name \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} you know , even more i i uh , immediate than that just being able to , uh {disfmarker} Well , it just seems like to track {disfmarker} track from one utterance to the next utterance who 's speaking and who 's speaking to whom , cuz that can be important ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "S i You know , \" You raised the point , So - and - so \" , it 's be kind of nice to be able to know who \" you \" was ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Shoot !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm thinking too much ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And ac {comment} and actually you remember {disfmarker} furthermore , you remember last time we had this discussion of how you know , I was sort of avoiding mentioning people 's names ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah , I was too . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} and we made the decision that was kind of artificial . Well , I mean , if we 're going to step in after the fact and change people 's names in the transcript , we 've basically done something one step worse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep . Well , I would sug I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} don't wanna change the names in the transcript ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but that 's because I 'm focused so much on the acoustics instead of on the discourse , and so I think that 's a really good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Misleading ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You 're right , this is going to require more thought ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . L let me just back up this to make a {disfmarker} a brief comment about the , uh , what we 're covering in the meeting . Uh I realize when you 're doing this that uh {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't realize that you had a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about . Uh , and so , uh {disfmarker} and so I was proceeding some somewhat at random , frankly . So I think what would be helpful would be uh , i and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll mention this to {disfmarker} to Liz and Andreas too , that um , before the meeting if anybody could send me , any {disfmarker} any , uh , uh , agenda items that they were interested in and I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take the role of organizing them uh , into {disfmarker} into the agenda ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "OK . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "but I 'd be very pleased to have everyone else {vocalsound} completely make up the agenda . I 've no desire to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to make it up , but if {disfmarker} if no one 's told me things , then I 'm just proceeding from my {disfmarker} my guesses , and {disfmarker} and uh , and i ye yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry it ended up with your out your time to {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm just always asking Jose what he 's doing , you know , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and so it 's {disfmarker} {pause} There 's uh , there 's obviously other things going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , it 's not a problem . Not a problem . Yeah . I just {disfmarker} I just couldn't do it in two minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "How will we {disfmarker} how would the person who 's doing the transcript even know who they 're talking about ? Do you know what I 'm saying ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "\" The person who 's doing the transcript {disfmarker} \" {comment} The IBM people ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . I mean , so so {disfmarker} how is that information gonna get labeled anyway ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean , who {disfmarker} what they 're {disfmarker} who they 're talking about ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I mean , so if I 'm saying in a meeting , \" oh and Bob , by the way , wanted {disfmarker} wanted to do so - and - so \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "How do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They 're just gonna write \" Bob \" on it or do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you 're doing {disfmarker} Yeah , @ @ they 're just gonna write \" Bob \" . And so . If you 're {disfmarker} if you 're doing discourse analysis ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "They won't be able to change it themselves ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What ar how are they gonna do any of this ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I 'm betting we 're gonna have huge chunks that are just totally un untranscribable by them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I mean , they 're gonna say speaker - one , or speaker - two or speaker I mean I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They can't do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , the current one they don't do speaker identity ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "because in NaturallySpeaking , or , excuse me , in ViaVoice , it 's only one person . and so in their current conventions there are no multiple speaker conventions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So it may just be one long transcript of a bunch of words ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} I think that {disfmarker} My understanding from Yen Is it Yen - Ching ? Is that how you pronounce her name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh {pause} Yu - Ching , Yu - Ching . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , uh Yu - Ching ? Yu - Ching ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "y Yu - Ching ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "was that um , they will {disfmarker} that they will adopt the {disfmarker} part of the conventions that {disfmarker} that we discussed , where they put speaker identifier down . But , you know , h they won't know these people , so I think it 's {disfmarker} Well , they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll adopt some convention but we haven't specified to them {disfmarker} So they 'll do something like speaker - one , speaker - two , is what I bet , but I 'm betting there 'll be huge variations in the accuracy of {disfmarker} of their labeling the speakers . We 'll have to review the transcripts in any case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And it {disfmarker} and it may very well be {disfmarker} I mean , since they 're not going to sit there and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and worry ab about , uh , it being the same speaker , they may very well go the {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} the first se the first time it changes to another speaker , that 'll be speaker - two ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And the next time it 'll be speaker - three even if it 's actually speaker - one ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know {disfmarker} Uh - huh . You know , that would be a very practical solution on their part ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but then we would need to label it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah we {disfmarker} we can probably regenerate it pretty easily from the close - talking mikes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And that 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yes , I was thinking , the temp the time values of when it changes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "So . But I mean that doesn't {disfmarker} This doesn't answer the {disfmarker} the question ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "But that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 'd be very efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "The p It 's a good point , \" which {disfmarker} what do you do for discourse tracking ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because y y you don't know to know , eh {disfmarker} you don't need to know what i what is the iden identification of the {disfmarker} of the speakers . You only eh want to know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Hmm . For {disfmarker} for acoustics you don't but for discourse you do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Well , you do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Ah , for discourse , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if someone says , uh , \" what {disfmarker} what is Jose doing ? \" and then Jose says something , you need to know that that was Jose responding ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh , {comment} that 's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , so ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Unless we adopt a different set of norms which is to not id to make a point of not identifying people by name , which then leads you to be more contextually ex explicit ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That would be hard ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , people are very flexible . You know ? I mean , so when we did this las last week , I felt that you know , now , Andreas may , uh , @ @ {comment} uh , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} i sometimes people think of something else at the same time and they miss a sentence or something , and {disfmarker} and because he missed something , then he missed the r the initial introduction of who we were talking about , and was {disfmarker} was unable to do the tracking ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I felt like most of us were doing the tracking and knew who we were talking about and we just weren't mentioning the name . So , people are really flexible ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But , you know , like , at the beginning of this meeting {disfmarker} Or , you I think said , {pause} you know , or s Liz , said something about um , uh , \" is Mari gonna use the equipment ? \" I mean , how would you say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , you have to really think , you know , about what you 're saying bef"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "if you wanted to anonymize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "\" Is you know who up in you know where ? \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ? Use the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be really hard if we made a policy where we didn't say names , plus we 'd have to tell everybody else ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , darn ! I mean , what I was gonna say is that the other option is that we could bleep out the names ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "but then , again that kills your discourse analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ugh !"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I don't know , my own two cents worth is that you don't do anything about what 's in the recordings , you only anonymize to the extent you can , the speakers have signed the forms and all ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's the issue ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , but that but that {disfmarker} as I said , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that works great for the acoustics , but it {disfmarker} it hurts you a lot for trying to do discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Because you don't have a map of who 's talking versus {pause} their {pause} name that they 're being referred to ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah . Th - Bec"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I thought we were gonna get it labelled speaker - one , speaker - two {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sure but , h then you have to know that Jose is speaker - one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why do you have to know his name ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK , so suppose someone says , \" well I don't know if I really heard what {disfmarker} uh , what Jose said . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And then , Jose responds ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And part of your learning about the dialogue is Jose responding to it . But it doesn't say \" Jose \" , it says \" speaker - five \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So {pause} uh {pause} u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see , you wanna associated the word \" Jose \" in the dialogue with the fact that then he responded ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Someone who 's doing discourse would wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And so , if we pass out the data to someone else , and it says \" speaker - five \" there , we also have to pass them this little guide that says that speaker - five is Jose ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and if were gonna do that we might as well {comment} give them \" Jose \" {disfmarker} say it was \" Jose \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And that violates our privacy issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Now , I {disfmarker} I think that we have these two phases in the {disfmarker} in the data , which is the one which is o our use , University of Washington 's use , IBM , SRI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And within that , it may be that it 's sufficient to not uh change the {disfmarker} to not incorporate anonymization yet , but always , always in the publications we have to ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And I think also , when we take it that next step and distribute it to the world , we have to . But I {disfmarker} but I don that 's {disfmarker} that 's a long way from now and {disfmarker} and it 's a matter of {disfmarker} between now and then of d of deciding how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Making some decisions ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "i i it {disfmarker} You know , it may be s that we we 'll need to do something like actually X out that part of the um {disfmarker} the audio , and just put in brackets \" speaker - one \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . For the public one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the ? ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , what we could do also is have more than one version of release ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "One that 's public and one {disfmarker} one that requires licensing . And so the licensed one would {disfmarker} w we could {disfmarker} it would be a sticky limitation ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "You know , like {disfmarker} Well , we can talk about that later ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think that 's risky . I think that the public should be the same . I think that when we do that world release , it should be the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I agree . I {disfmarker} I agree with Jane ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "For a bunch of reasons , legal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I think that we {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} need to have a consistent licensing policy of some sort , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But I also think a consistent licensing policy is important ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , one thing to to take into consideration is w are there any um {disfmarker} For example , the people who are funding this work , they want this work to get out and be useful for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "If we all of a sudden do this and then release it to the public and it 's not longer useful for discourse , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , depending on how much editing we do , you might be able to {pause} still have it useful . because for discourse you don't need the audio . Right ? So you could bleep out the names in the audio ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "and use the anonymized one through the transcript ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you release both {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Excuse me . We {disfmarker} we do need audio for discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But , n excuse me , but you could bleep out just the names ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "She {disfmarker} No , but she 's saying , from the argument before , she wants to be able to say if someone said \" Jose \" in their {disfmarker} in their thing , and then connect to so to what he said later , then you need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . But in the transcript , you could say , everywhere they said \" Jose \" that you could replace it with \" speaker - seven \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh I see . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . But I {disfmarker} {pause} I also wanna say that people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "And then it wouldn't meet {disfmarker} match the audio anymore . But it would be still useful for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if both of those are publically available {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah . That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But they {disfmarker} Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "And th and the other thing is if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if Liz were here , {vocalsound} what she might say is that she wants to look if things that cut across between the audio and the dialogue ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you see ? So , it 's complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "and so , {vocalsound} uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "yeah . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I think we have to think about w @ @ {comment} how . I think that this can't be decided today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , OK , good point ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "But it 's g but I think it was good to introduce the thing and we can do it next time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I didn't think {disfmarker} when I wrote you that email I wasn't thinking it was a big can of worms , but I guess it is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "OK . Yeah , a lot of these things are ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Discourse ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} Discourse , you know {disfmarker} Also I wanted to make the point that {disfmarker} that discourse is gonna be more than just looking at a transcript ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah , ab absolutely . Oh , yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "It 's gonna be looking at a t You know , and prosod prosodic stuff is involved , and that means you 're going to be listening to the audio , and then you come directly into this {disfmarker} confronting this problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe we should just not allow anybody to do research on discourse ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and then , we wouldn't have to worry about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah , we should just market it to non - English speaking countries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Uh , maybe we should only have meetings between people who don't know one another and who are also amnesiacs who don't know their own name ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Did you read the paper on Eurospeech ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "We could have little labels . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna introduce my Reservoir Dogs solution again , which is everyone has like \" Mister White \" , \" Mister Pink \" , {vocalsound} \" Mister Blue \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mister White ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Did you read the paper a few years ago where they were reversing the syllables ? They were di they they had the utterances . and they would extract out the syllables and they would play them backwards ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But {disfmarker} so , the syllables were in the same order , with respect to each other , but the acous"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Everything was in the same order , but they were {disfmarker} the individual syll {comment} syllables were played backwards . And you could listen to it , {pause} and it would sound the same ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What did it sound like ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "People had no difficulty in interpreting it . So what we need is something that 's the reverse , that a speech recognizer works exactly the same on it but people can't understand it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Oh , well that 's {disfmarker} there 's an easy way to do that . Jus - jus just play it all backwards ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Oh right . The speech recognizer 's totally symmetric , isn't it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "What , what does the speech recognizer care ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Ah , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Oh , do we do digits ? Or {disfmarker} ? What do we do ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} OK , we 'll quickly do digits ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "Let 's do digits . Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we already missed the party ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Or do we just quit ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "OK , go off here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I think it would be fun sometime to read them with different intonations . like as if you were talking like , \" nine eight six eight seven ? \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , you know , in the {disfmarker} in the one I transcribed , I did find a couple instances {disfmarker} {pause} I found one instance of contrastive stress , where it was like the string had a {disfmarker} li So it was like \" nine eight two four , nine nine two four \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , really . So they were like looking ahead ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "Well , they differed . I mean , at that {disfmarker} that session I did feel like they did it more as sentences . But , um , sometimes people do it as phone numbers . {comment} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I {pause} am sort of interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} And sometimes , you know , I s And I {disfmarker} I never know . When I do it , I {disfmarker} I ask myself what I 'm doing each time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I was thinking that it must get kind of boring for the people who are gonna have to transcribe this"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "and I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "They may as well throw in some interesting intonations ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Well , except ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "I like your question intonation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc E", "content": "That 's very funny . I haven't heard that one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "We have the transcript . We have the actual numbers they 're reading , so we 're not necessarily depending on that . OK , I 'm gonna go off ."}], "query": "What were other ways to get more space?", "answer": "Professor D said they would be getting another disk rack that would bring in four thirty-six gigabyte disks, increasing the space. Additionally, the directories of Aurora data, Carmen\u2019s Data and SPINE were likely to be moved."}, {"id": 137, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The names ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for my sur um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jens ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_O_ da . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "E_ R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh Martijn ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was a little short on time ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , same here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functional requirements , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You didn't read it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unique ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But old people are not looking for that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can ask some questions or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but not sure {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Never ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , neither do I ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay now , m maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't thi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Forward ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Li like a web browser ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Six seven eight or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah mayb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It gets some seconds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's only for television now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I just thought of another one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you have"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "four arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And later we can d uh do the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's like a iMac or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They they're uh designed very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's active ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or just a green one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , when you press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we make it red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Empty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to indicate something's on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's cool if it was green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I kno"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I have a modern one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we use that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changing the signal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then um it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well uh the components ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But this one is producing infrared light"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh , that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everywhere in the r"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That looks different , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It must be around it then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's f Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything agre"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because I was short on time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No worry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That still stays ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's very fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read any"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That should be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if i if i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You only have a microphone in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't have information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more if we if we do it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have to make some decisions . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , no speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just take that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it it mustn't work all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , that's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you can switch it on or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . It lights up all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh phones ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Different colours . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I use teletext as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How long is lunch break ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was about the functional design of the remote control. Firstly, Marketing gave a presentation on functional requirements. Group decided to focus on the fancy and fashionable look, usability, and different colors. Next, User Interface gave a presentation on the technical function design. Also, the group discussed this topic, and they decided to design the menu buttons of the remote similar to the mobile phone. Then, Industrial Designer gave a presentation on the working design. Group mates discussed deciding on the use of LED light on the buttons to indicate the transmitting of the Morse code when pressing the button. They also decided to use a more intelligent chip than the standard one when the circuit was closed, it would produce the pattern. For the age group, they would target the age group below forty since it was a young market."}, {"id": 138, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The names ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for my sur um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jens ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_O_ da . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "E_ R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh Martijn ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was a little short on time ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , same here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functional requirements , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You didn't read it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unique ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But old people are not looking for that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can ask some questions or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but not sure {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Never ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , neither do I ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay now , m maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't thi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Forward ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Li like a web browser ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Six seven eight or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah mayb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It gets some seconds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's only for television now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I just thought of another one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you have"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "four arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And later we can d uh do the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's like a iMac or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They they're uh designed very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's active ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or just a green one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , when you press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we make it red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Empty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to indicate something's on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's cool if it was green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I kno"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I have a modern one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we use that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changing the signal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then um it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well uh the components ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But this one is producing infrared light"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh , that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everywhere in the r"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That looks different , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It must be around it then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's f Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything agre"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because I was short on time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No worry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That still stays ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's very fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read any"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That should be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if i if i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You only have a microphone in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't have information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more if we if we do it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have to make some decisions . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , no speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just take that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it it mustn't work all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , that's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you can switch it on or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . It lights up all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh phones ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Different colours . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I use teletext as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How long is lunch break ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}"}], "query": "Summarize the presentation and discussion on functional requirements.", "answer": "Marketing gave some suggestions on the remote functional requirements based on marketing reports, which included a fancy look of the remote control, ease of use for elderly people, a button on the home station to trace its position, and speech recognition. So finally, the group mates suggested the usability and the color of the remote control based on Marketing's presentation."}, {"id": 139, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The names ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for my sur um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jens ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_O_ da . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "E_ R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh Martijn ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was a little short on time ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , same here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functional requirements , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You didn't read it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unique ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But old people are not looking for that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can ask some questions or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but not sure {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Never ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , neither do I ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay now , m maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't thi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Forward ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Li like a web browser ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Six seven eight or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah mayb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It gets some seconds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's only for television now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I just thought of another one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you have"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "four arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And later we can d uh do the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's like a iMac or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They they're uh designed very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's active ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or just a green one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , when you press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we make it red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Empty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to indicate something's on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's cool if it was green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I kno"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I have a modern one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we use that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changing the signal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then um it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well uh the components ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But this one is producing infrared light"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh , that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everywhere in the r"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That looks different , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It must be around it then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's f Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything agre"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because I was short on time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No worry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That still stays ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's very fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read any"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That should be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if i if i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You only have a microphone in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't have information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more if we if we do it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have to make some decisions . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , no speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just take that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it it mustn't work all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , that's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you can switch it on or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . It lights up all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh phones ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Different colours . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I use teletext as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How long is lunch break ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}"}], "query": "Why did Marketing suggest giving up on speech recognition when presenting the functional requirements?", "answer": "When Marketing mentioned that their target group should be both young people and people above forty who were not keen on new features, Marketing thought it would be too expensive to have the speech recognition and not reachable for twenty-five Euros. Also, Marketing suggested a DVD player, stereo, and VCR for television."}, {"id": 140, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The names ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for my sur um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jens ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_O_ da . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "E_ R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh Martijn ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was a little short on time ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , same here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functional requirements , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You didn't read it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unique ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But old people are not looking for that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can ask some questions or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but not sure {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Never ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , neither do I ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay now , m maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't thi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Forward ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Li like a web browser ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Six seven eight or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah mayb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It gets some seconds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's only for television now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I just thought of another one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you have"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "four arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And later we can d uh do the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's like a iMac or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They they're uh designed very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's active ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or just a green one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , when you press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we make it red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Empty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to indicate something's on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's cool if it was green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I kno"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I have a modern one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we use that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changing the signal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then um it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well uh the components ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But this one is producing infrared light"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh , that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everywhere in the r"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That looks different , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It must be around it then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's f Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything agre"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because I was short on time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No worry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That still stays ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's very fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read any"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That should be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if i if i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You only have a microphone in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't have information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more if we if we do it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have to make some decisions . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , no speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just take that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it it mustn't work all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , that's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you can switch it on or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . It lights up all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh phones ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Different colours . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I use teletext as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How long is lunch break ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}"}], "query": "What did User Interface think of Marketing's suggestion on the ease of use when presenting the functional requirements?", "answer": "When Marketing mentioned that they should make a new product that looked fancy, fashionable, and was easy to use for elderly users, User Interface suggested making sure that the remote control had better usability and could stand out by just being watched. Also, Marketing suggested a different color or different shape."}, {"id": 141, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I just forgot their name , so uh you're i sorry , I just forgot them all . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I have to write it down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you know them or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The names ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for my sur um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jens ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , but your b your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh Damman . D_ A_ W_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_O_ da . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh uh M_ M_ . I mean M_ . Double M_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And what's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Paul Wiezer . Paul Wiezer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "W_I_E_S_ z Z_ or S_ ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A_ E_ Z_ zee zee"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh zee {gap} . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "E_ R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's your name ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh Martijn ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but your surname . {vocalsound} Your surname ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Uh Abbing . A_ B_ B_ I_ N_ G_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thanks ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was a little short on time ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , me too , so that's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , same here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , I just fi first my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh let's see . Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So let's have a look , we have forty minutes , so it's it's more than enough . {gap} Okay , perfect . So we have {disfmarker} Oh no , what's that ? So so we have uh forty minutes for this uh for this second meeting , and we have to make uh sure that we going t that we are sure , that we are ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that we know what we're going to make uh th what the product is going to like {disfmarker} look like . Uh first I have the notes of the last meeting , so I showed uh show them to you . Oh , sorry about that , I just escape this one . How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s uh presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And show , sorry . Okay , so let's have a look s at this one . Okay , so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the um {disfmarker} Should be a univ uh universal remote control {disfmarker} No , that's {disfmarker} I uh s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a T_V_ remote control only . So have you changed that part ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so {disfmarker} yeah , it still has to be uh f a r a remote control for kids and elderly . It's it's still the same . Um {disfmarker} All these points uh we have to look at . You all know them . But uh there's another point . The um uh the main uh people of interest of this company are forty plus people . So they're old and not younger people . So we have to look at that as well . 'Specially old people , maybe bi bigger buttons or something , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh so {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} yeah , that's it , so just you can do your presentation for uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it doesn't matter , just start with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Functional requirements , yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Well my name is Jens Damman , but we're in a group , and I I will start it . Wait . Um I've used a marketing report on uh the site . Uh I think you've uh read it too . Uh and uh f and furthermore I uh surfed the o the other site ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I didn't read i read it , so it's not for me ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You didn't read it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I didn't get it uh anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I didn don't thing we got it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh okay , I I was the only one who get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay it was uh uh uh um um {vocalsound} a report about uh an experiment with uh a lot of users . And uh they had a lot of findings in their report uh with statistical uh uh uh thing uh with statistical uh proof . So I um I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of uh a lot of findings . So we can use this uh to uh create our own remote control . Uh seventy five percent of the users find uh most remote controls ugly . Yeah , I think uh uh that's a lot , so we have to make a beautiful remote control . Uh eighty percent of users would spend when uh a remote control will l uh look fancy . I think this fits uh at the {vocalsound} uh what what uh Michael said about uh older people . Older people will uh spend more money uh for uh something uh uh what's good . Because younger people are more critical uh about uh uh where they spend their money money at . Uh seventy five percent uh seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot . Well okay , that's uh normal . I think uh we we have to make uh good zap buttons . But that's one of our requirements ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The last point is quite an interesting {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um Martijn alr already said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh maybe our uh fold open system is is a good one , but {disfmarker} I don't think it's uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we should have the ten percent on the on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "then you're you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the ten percent on the top , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That that's a good one . Um uh page two . Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room . That's exactly what we said about um maybe a home station for uh for it uh to uh recharge the batteries or something . Uh I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system , so when you {vocalsound} clap your hands it will beep or something . Uh you must find it uh quickly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Maybe just a button on the home station . So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Yeah , we can uh combine that . Uh it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control . Uh I think we must t uh take a look at this . It's only uh th thirty four of the {vocalsound} thirty four percent . But it's uh a tough one . Because if we make a ha whole new product , our own style , we we c uh this is so difficult , uh a difficulty I think . Uh next , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_ . Yeah , but only if they zap a lot , and they watch over five hours T_V_ or something . I don't {disfmarker} We we haven't {disfmarker} Uh we mustn't look too much at uh the last point . Okay , last page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the last uh experiment uh was about gadgets , like uh speech recognition . We didn't uh think about that already . And uh an L_C_D_ on the remote control . We already thought about that . Um uh they finally had a conclusion that younger people um uh under an age of f forty five are uh more interested in new features . And but they're more critical . And older people uh want to spend uh more money . {vocalsound} But uh they uh they don't want to uh have a lot of uh new features , because they're in their old uh thinking way . And they want to keep the old uh things the old things . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have uh a new uh age of forty plus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But y But you but you already said that the uh company was about uh forty plus uh clients ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "People . So yeah , so we just can skip the L_C_D_ r on the remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think we can speak , uh we can skip speech recognition uh directly ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because it's not reachable for twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um then {disfmarker} I have my personal uh preference . Okay , that's {vocalsound} not very good , because I thought about television , D_V_D_ player , stereo and V_C_R_ . I had a question about . But it's already out of the question , this . Um my point is , well , I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If we ma uh make a a remote uh control for only television , I think it's hard to uh sell it for twenty five Euros . But it's the exercise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's too expensive . Yeah , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , only only for television uh {disfmarker} On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything . And we only make it for television , so we mi mm we m must made it make it uh very special ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but good usability , so you can use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , I told about the home station . Uh it must be simple , because uh our the the elderly people uh needs to use it . And I I found a motto . And we put the fashion in electronics . And that's uh the motto we are uh referenced to uh for our uh our style . We we have to make a {vocalsound} a new product . We have to be um {disfmarker} Yeah . One of a kind , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it has to look uh uh uh unique ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unique ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The company is about our uh th th their own fashion , their own style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I reckon {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But old people are not looking for that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not really ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think the main thing is the usability , that's where we can uh make it a special product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "to k to keep it simple when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh we also have to stand out ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I thought about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'cause there are already , like you said , so many controls out that support lot of stuff . But we have to make sure that we're better usability , and stand out by just looks of it . So make it just a different colour or different shape ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , this was uh my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Paul , you can do the next one if you want ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You can ask some questions or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah well {disfmarker} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's on the on the uh net net uh thing ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Technical functions design . Okay , well , so we have s mm uh broad audience . Isn't {disfmarker} that isn't true anymore . But um we have elderly people , so we need to keep it simple . Uh the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen uh standard . So standardised uh methods like uh on all uh remote controls . Not too full , like uh Jens already said , only ten percent is being used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what do you think of only the numbers and the on-off button or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I have it on the next page ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yes uh basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff . Um so the options that we put on there should be easy to use , and 'cause you have more room then , and for elderly people big buttons . Uh an icon on it or text on it , so it's very clear what that buttons does . So it doesn't take much time to figure out uh how to use it . Um a way to find out uh what people use is maybe just to use uh questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people , elderly people what they use , what they want on a remote control"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to find out . But there is already in a one done . Of functions I could think of . Uh volume , channels , the the basic according to {gap} . Just one two three etcetera . Uh text service options . Um basic on-off . And I found an uh {disfmarker} Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same um pages on text and always have to click the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But if you could make a new option , that you just have to press one button and you get on your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel . So you might as well remember the number . Or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe i maybe it's too complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but not sure {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a good idea , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker} It was just a thought . So I'm , I u {disfmarker} I would find it handy , I think , when you just press one button and you get on six six six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . But um how can you remember what uh channel uh connects to what favourite button ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "what I was reading on the page . Uh a remote control just sends commands , basics commands to uh the television . So switch to channel six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh button six says says six . And if you make favourites , it can say six six six in a row . Just numbers . That can be in the in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh uh for a user to to remember , if I press that button it goes to that channel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you said a favourite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but isn't it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh mayb for me it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I use my telephone , I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Never ? Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , neither do I ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay now , m maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I don't do it , maybe old people {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , maybe elderly people uh . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They don't like new features . So maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um well play , pause . I dunno if that's usable"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not , it's still not {disfmarker} It's not anymore n uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "when {disfmarker} Not anymore for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , on off . {vocalsound} I dunno , miss {disfmarker} Did I miss any other buttons , basic buttons ? I couldn't think of any other , 'specially not for T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just on the front as well . No , that's the only th the only thing you need ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh the p uh next and previous . Previous I know , but next channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just the channel um uh {disfmarker} What I mean is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't thi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Forward ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Li like a web browser ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Six seven eight or five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} Oh , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh um there's also a button to uh go to the channel you've been before . Like a web browser back button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have {disfmarker} Uh I did {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know what it is , but I think it's all too difficult for old people . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think you use that . Y only when you want to go to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just use uh when you wanna switch between channels all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how do you want to uh do it , like if you have a channel above ten ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Normally you can press one , zero or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think um f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons . So you have that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ten plus or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the ten plus button . Just uh one one pressing , or quickly after each other ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To just keep it simple and standard uh features ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w wouldn't it be a problem to uh {disfmarker} Because you h have to be fast enough . Maybe the elderly people {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yeah mayb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It gets some seconds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think that's in the T_V_ as well . That's how the uh the T_V_ T_V_ handles it . But you can have a button that says um two two st two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's it's no it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have uh like a five seconds period to press those two buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but that's th mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's what Paul says . It's not a remote control uh uh that um uh makes the T_V_ um do one two . It's the T_V_ who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must uh type one or two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you have a universal T_V_ controller , you needed one button that has two uh stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have a a period of , I dunno , five seconds to press those buttons , and that {disfmarker} And not for elderly people to look , one two uh press and aim and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's only for television now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I just thought of another one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Most things in modern T_V_s are also on the menu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you also need a menu button . And then uh navigation uh {disfmarker} But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you have"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use , like um uh m maybe uh switch channels and uh volume and k that kind of things , and uh the menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "four arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you n almost never use menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it's still still a good idea , I'm not sure . You'll also have to use a mute button to to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , a mute button . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know where where you have to put it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's that's {disfmarker} I think that's the layers that produce . Now I have to figure out what's uh what to put on . What we're gonna use ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . Yeah . That's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And later we can d uh do the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh now my personal preferences . Uh using the standards , basic {disfmarker} Um I think that we should stand out uh unique , being unique with the design . So we have to , I dunno , uh make a different shape than usual . So when you are in the shop and you see our T_V_ controller hanging , that it stands out . Not just in in the row when you see all the same uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Does it have to be {disfmarker} Uh it has to be uh with different colours"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I dunno . Different colours um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we can give it out in different colours . You can choose blue or yellow"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's like a iMac or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just to make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well why not ? Or {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's fa That's fancy . That's uh fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it looks cheap as well , because it's a small thing . It's only twenty five Euros . It looks very cheap if you make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , maybe you can look at uh mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , you just {disfmarker} I dunno what happened ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to look at mobile phones , that's right . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They they're uh designed very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And well basically are the same , just a bit smaller . You think you can't make a T_V_ controller too small , 'cause then you will always lo always lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh well , I think that's a good example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we hurry up a bit , because otherwise we won't make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it fin Are you finished ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I'm finished . I think we discussed everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , the working design . The method I used is uh search the web . Just the web page provided . Um {disfmarker} Basically I'm I'm not very technical uh uh educated , but uh I could figure it out . Um basically what happens is you press a button , uh then a circuit gets closed by pressing the button , uh like a switch . And by closing that certain circuit , the chip knows uh what bu button is pressed . So like you press a one , that circuit is closed and uh {disfmarker} Then the chip produces a pattern . Like a Morse code to uh {disfmarker} And and sends that to the uh L_E_D_ . That's the uh light emitting diode , I think . Um and the light emitting diode is uh producing infrared light . That's un uh invisible to the human eye . And uh transmit that uh to the T_V_ . However it has also an uh a visible uh diode that's uh blinking red if you look in it . And that's uh another diode , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because infrared is not visible . So that's er uh do two different things"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we we also have to have a LED li LED light on it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . I I think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh j Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I'm not sure if it's the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} I think it's usable ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ain't it just to to indicate that it's transmitting ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's active ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or just a green one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's {disfmarker} If you use it , it's green or the red , it's r green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it's in the case that it's active . It's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , when you press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I it's it's just uh the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red's l shows up like something's wrong ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and green is like it's okay , you press the button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe depends on uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ma on on most on most uh uh remote controls it's red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we make it red ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we don't have to make it red . Maybe integrate it in the design as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to {disfmarker} The whole the whole uh remote control becomes uh green if you press the buttons . Uh that's cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I I think uh the batteries will be uh {vocalsound} a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Oh ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Empty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe it's it is would an e No . Just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have a recharger in it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If we can still make that then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but it doesn't have to be red ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just to indicate something's on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . That it's working . That it's not not the batteries are low ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's cool if it was green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's it's not very important ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Green or red or whatever , it is cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know . Just to indicate it's working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the receptor in the T_V_ senses the pattern . So we have to understand what patterns are used to , you know , to make it universal . So that it can be used with all the T_V_s . We have to really understand what patterns are used , so we can uh o On the {disfmarker} Otherwise it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to uh make buttons for that as well , to make it uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . I I uh {disfmarker} The chip um uh is producing the pattern . So we have to make a chip that produces patterns to , y you know , to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An automatically search function for each television , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That are working . Yeah , or {disfmarker} I dunno how it's uh exactly how it works . It wasn't explained there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I I use a universal uh remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I kno"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {gap} list of all the T_V_s you have , etcetera . And you have to put in a number , so it works on your T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I have a modern one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the modern one you you uh you type uh search , and the LED began to blink blink blink . And uh uh uh after uh a short time the television turns off . And then you know , oh it it's the right one . And you can stop it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and then it's okay . So you don't have to search for your television or your code ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh search uh the pattern for itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we use that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it uh {disfmarker} We have to make a a s a bit more intelligent chip than the standard one . Because you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just say {disfmarker} Can you s just say it again , because I was just looking {disfmarker} There's just a short {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh okay . Well uh y you have this chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh when the circuit is closed , it produces the pattern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh ma basically for uh brands of T_V_ these patterns are different . So like when you press a one on one T_V_ it go go to one . And on the other T_V_ it won't work , basically . So uh basically what you have to do is uh get these patterns right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh by d uh that can be done by uh just uh cha yeah , changing this pattern all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changing the signal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} What he's doing when he's configuring this pattern , this chip , uh is trying to switch off the television . And when it's uh switched off , you can push a button as uh it's working now , so {disfmarker} And then he saves that setting"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then um it's working ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the right uh option ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well uh the components ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's a bit technical , and I hadn't {disfmarker} I w I was a little short on time . Um but I think I understand it . Um the energy source is uh the battery , basically ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um that's connecting to all the components ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because it has to be fed with energy . Okay . Uh the subcomponent is uh w I I think it is uh the button pressed . So basically when you press a button , a switch get closed . Um that's connecting to a chip . So the chip knows what button you pressed . And the chip sends out uh the pattern to the infrared bulb . I didn didn't put the description by this one . Th this is a normal bulb . So the normal flashing light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's the LED , L_E_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and this is a LED too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But this one is producing infrared light"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's invisible . And this one is producing normal light ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we can make the normal one also a normal light . Not a LED light , but as a normal one . To flash up your {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if you use the buttons , uh both of them works . But one you can't see and one indicates that you use a button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , presu Yeah yeah yeah . Because uh when you button press a button and it doesn't work , it can {disfmarker} Basically if the battery is low , it won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to uh put uh a small light around the button you push . So you see green if you push that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh , that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm I think it's unnecessary power uh you use then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but if you u if you do that , you know that you're uh sending a signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And it's {disfmarker} you also know which button you p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But then have to be on the in the all uh remote control have to be LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . But it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everywhere in the r"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But does it make any difference for the energy you use ? You got still one LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I don't think so , but {disfmarker} Yeah , i it it will look different , and I think we need to find something else ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That looks different , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause otherwise we will just make another standard , and our uh motto also is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is LEDs uh beneath the the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w around the buttons , or in the buttons even ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm like when you push it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , then then won't {disfmarker} Then you won't see it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "n n Yeah . You have your finger over the button . So you can see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It must be around it then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Or or m maybe on top of the {disfmarker} A green light is flashing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Not not not not here , but here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . There . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The same as a telephone , or a mobile phone , or what do you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah , we're thinking about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh on a mobile phone , in the dark uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It lights up . Everything lights up . That's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "everything lights up . Why ain't that on a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it only takes a l a little energy and it's not that much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if uh a mobile phone a phone can do it , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's f Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's a good idea for old people as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , i if you're in the dark , you can't see the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's only few LEDs . Only four or something . Four LED ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I dunno . But if we use a battery station , which I think we will use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's a good idea , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . We'll have enough power"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything agre"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everyone agrees with that , or {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe what Paul said , uh under the {disfmarker} on the on the home station , uh a button to uh to call your uh remote control , that it beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and then you {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But you have to make a sound device in it then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , there must be sound in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , it shouldn't take much {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . B maybe it's that that's a little too hard to make . Especially for that kind of money . Because it's i it has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm uh , twenty five Euros , I think we can make it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Production cost is uh t uh twelve and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bec Twelve and a half , okay . But but we only have to make it for television , and um we must have something special ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh you also have uh {vocalsound} remote controls with a lot of options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we lose about ninety percent of those options . So I think you can uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . We have to give our customers some extras ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I think we will save money with that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Are you almost finished or just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the personal preference , I didn't fill it out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because I was short on time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No worry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Basically what we could do too is uh have a Bluetooth uh integration ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I just want to talk some {disfmarker} about some more . So maybe you have to {disfmarker} Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . Wh what's that ? So uh {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . We have some new uh project requirements . We have to have a look what they are . They're still in um {disfmarker} Uh teletext has become outdated since the popularity of internet . So a teletext option , maybe we have to skip that one . I'm not sure . I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I I think a lot of people use uh teletext , still use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and it's it's on your comp it's on your television . It's only one button . So I don't think it is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We definitely should use it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's uh what I told you . The remote control should only be used for a television . So that's maybe easier . And um the the forty plus people , I already told you . Oh no , sorry . Oh , this is a problem . Oh sorry about that . The new product should reach a new market with customers are the younger than forty . So it should be flashy or just more interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , that's {disfmarker} It changes things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm sorry about that . I just I just didn't read it well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So does it make some decision about that ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That kinda changes the whole situation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah , then we have to make some nice features . I think uh the thing in the dark is a good way ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That still stays ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "to make it more like a mobile phone . More modern ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's important I think and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ doesn't work for uh twelve and a half Euros I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I d I don't don't think it's very usable in a remote control , especially when you only have T_V_ functions on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ah {disfmarker} I I don't y you'll use it often , because you can see on the television wh what channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , I'm watching uh the channel one . Okay . {vocalsound} No , it's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I tho I think that's not usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah . What other features can we put in ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I think you you have to make it a bit flashy and and popular . And uh then the usability is not that required , because the {disfmarker} Like in the mobile phones , usability is not that good I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh some of you had uh something to read about um {vocalsound} uh speech uh recognition . About you said one and the television turns on one . Is that reachable maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's very {disfmarker} That's fancy . That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's very fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I didn't read any"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twelve and you've got twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "b Yeah . Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Only the numbers , only numbers . Uh furthermore nothing . But only the numbers , one to twenty or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That should be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to integrate that as well . If it's possible . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's possible ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think it's very expensive actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno . I didn't read it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why should it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if i if i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You only have a microphone in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't have information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it has to work . And and and does it have to work only in English , or in Dutch too or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah that's a problem , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and uh w Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh only in English . Only in English I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What {disfmarker} But uh I dunno how that works then . Uh does your uh {disfmarker} Does it lie in the centre of the room and can you scream from wherever"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's probably my job to figure that out , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh one to have in channel one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that {disfmarker} Yeah , then th we have to think about that . But do {vocalsound} do we do it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more if we if we do it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno . So , is it very usable ? That's what I'm looking at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and do you have to speak in in like in a thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe maybe it's too hard to uh to realise that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker} We have short time to to put it on the market ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that {disfmarker} We have to do a lot of testing before we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Yeah well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make uh make uh , we can make th th the new remote control very flashy . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and uh and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In uh indeed uh the languages are a difficult thing . Uh because we we have a lot of languages ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I d Yeah . I don't think it's uh useful enough to take the effort to design something with uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and also if if you have a good speech uh speech recognition , you can just throw the uh {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A uh someone says that uh give me one Coke , and the T_V_ turns uh to one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the remote away . Mm . Hmm . Mm . Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's the right command . And then you have to say uh T_V_ channel one , or something . Not just one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} Hmm yeah , T_V_ one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but th that becomes your f Uh uh because that's very hard for uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well I dunno . But I don't think , it just ain't useful enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have to make some decisions . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , no speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you can see on the uh {disfmarker} So we have to know what we're going to put on . Do we , do we make uh a light under the under the n under the numbers and everything ? Do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you press something , it lights up for a few seconds , so you can see what other but buttons there are , okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just take that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what else , we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Also the one in the dark . So uh {disfmarker} It lights up when it's dark ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but it's {disfmarker} Oh th I thought would , that that would be the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you push something , it it all lights up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it it mustn't work all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , that's what I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It uh uh it have to work only when you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you can switch it on or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , if you use one button , it must turn uh on for twenty seconds , and then it must turn off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . It lights up all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right . You have to {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right . That's what I said . It's the same as the telephone . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . D Yeah , alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do we use a a {disfmarker} Uh what's it called ? Like a iMac , {gap} if you can look through it . Or just a normal remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe just as an option , w like we discussed , like iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , maybe it's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , uh maybe use even different fonts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh phones ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Different colours . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so y you just make it th through {disfmarker} You look through it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A see-through . Mm , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Uh as an option maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And so the buttons we have , this is , yeah , this is normal . We put in the the simple buttons on the top ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the standard {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and probably the the the more complicated buttons down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have {disfmarker} You had a lot of different buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we but we don't {disfmarker} We don't really have any complicated buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe you have you have to {disfmarker} Uh when you use teletec teletext , you can press a green or a red button to go to the next one , or to go to the previous one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but {disfmarker} Yeah , well w I think the buttons are very easy . With just uh standard buttons we just have so little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O but maybe you can put um the g the options of teletext on the second level of the remote control . Because you ne almost never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I don't need don't need {disfmarker} Uh teletext options are only four buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but younger people I think um more often use the internet and elderly people often use teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I use teletext as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I use te teletext every day , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . For me too , it is . So we just keep it one level then ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah , one level . And I think , uh 'cause um we don't have that many buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the design is most important . You can d uh integrate the buttons in the design very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause {gap} simple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you put one above it , it's clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's it for toda for {disfmarker} We're going to have a lunch lunch break . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How long is lunch break ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So yeah , you know what you have to do . This is uh this is it . You get your meal and everything , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Trendwatching . Okay . That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we're finished for t for this time . We're going to have some lunch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} {gap}"}], "query": "Summarize the presentation and discussion on technical function design.", "answer": "Firstly, User Interface suggested the group should stand up with a unique design like different shapes than usual. User Interface also suggested a new option for favorite channels and a menu button that could integrate with volume, the previous and next buttons. The group agreed to make the remote a bit smaller and would like to look at mobile phones when designing it."}, {"id": 142, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was about the prototype presentation of the remote control. Firstly, the group had a prototype discussion on the remote control's scroll wheel, standard place, the round shape, the multiple speech buttons, the menu buttons, and the text button with hard plastic material. Next, the group evaluated remote's look, ease of use, and technological innovation based on different criteria. Lastly, the group discussed that the production price would be 12.3 Euros, and the target price would be 20 Euros. Finally, they posed a quick challenge on using the magic pen and the board to draw design features."}, {"id": 143, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the evaluation criteria.", "answer": "Marketing set the criteria for evaluation. The group gave two points on the fancy look and feel, three points on the ease of use and learnable, and two points on technological innovation because the group thought new features were not all extraordinary. Besides, they gave two points on the target market trend which said that the products with fruit and vegetables in different colors might be popular. Lastly, they gave high marks on the room for creativity and leadership."}, {"id": 144, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What's the conclusion on the discussion about the criteria of ease of use and learnable?", "answer": "Project Manager thought the second layer of the remote was not easy to learn but Industrial Designer responded that users would not need to pay attention to that part. The group reached a consensus that the scroll wheel was much better than average. So they gave a two on this criterion."}, {"id": 145, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What did Marketing recommend to do when discussing the evaluation criteria of market trend?", "answer": "Project Manager thought they should skip the speaker when User Interface mentioned the power indicator. Marketing recommended that they need a button to beep for calling and they should include the speaker because it was usable and small enough. Also, Marketing supplemented that the production cost has been considered and within 12.3 Euros."}, {"id": 146, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the project finance and the use of the drawing board.", "answer": "The remote price would be at twenty Euros. And the production cost would be twelve point three Euros. And the group thought that the use of both the board and the pen to draw on the remote prototype was stupid and not handy enough."}, {"id": 147, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not saved yet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Our beautiful drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just f um {disfmarker} So this is our agenda . You're {disfmarker} F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} Oh yeah . So these are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So these are the um last notes we I made . If anything doesn't look right , just say it to me then . I don't have to put it in the report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we doing the the speech recognition ? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but it's still possible uh uh financially . So if you want to , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah . Well then then we're gonna put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just uh we have to design the inside then , but it should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Or are we making a slide open , like underneath ? Or fold open ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's probably better . Yeah , s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you {gap} other functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe that's better . Yeah , that's that's a very good point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so when you have a lot of room inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Think that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can make it very easy to use . 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . So this is okay ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} No . Yeah , we're gonna use the advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so that's {disfmarker} Uh I'll just have a look how much that is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Okay , for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I I think so . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you have a different chip for speech recognition . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget . So it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can show your prototype if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Together ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's {disfmarker} Let's do it together ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll give comments ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , we just made a Word file with the basic elements . Uh the look-and-feel model . Uh well the form , the case um as drawn there . Simply a square with uh round corners . So that's basically it . {vocalsound} Uh the material should be hard plastic . Uh colour changeable , and also transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And colour and transparent , or just transparent , I don't know . Um then the elements . Uh we have {disfmarker} The functions are just basic . Like uh I've pointed them here . Mute function , on-off function , text functions . This uh switch channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this is the the num-pad . And the logo is over here , and the mic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the scrollwheel , no ? You operate that with your pointing finger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you hold it like this in your right hand and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , speech recognition . Just {disfmarker} Only one button to say it's on or off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I didn't have a specification of that . But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so I've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , maybe maybe uh you have to configure it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes , you need options to configure it , and after that you don't need 'em anymore ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can put it on the back as well if you want to ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can {gap} put 'em all on the back . That's for sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or or on the slide function , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well we haven't had time to design that , the slide pad ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We also don't know how many buttons are required , or what kind of buttons . But {disfmarker} You have a lot of room if you can slide it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you can put it separate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah I know . I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something . So {disfmarker} But it's enough room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Um the position ? Yeah , you write uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You wrote this , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well the main , the main zap buttons are most central . That was the the most important thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh the best {gap} place , the best reach place {disfmarker} Um on-off buttons , text buttons , mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are , easy to find . Um the on-off button is a bit bigger , uh so it stands out . That way you don't have to make it red , 'cause it's will uh will show up . Uh scrollwheel is on the left side . It's {vocalsound} basically the be standard place for scrollwheel , as far as I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . But it's not uh impossible to use it , if you're left handed . So y Because you can use your thumb then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just just one thing now . Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay yeah , they {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . That's that's below that then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's uh twelve buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} just so you get that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's rather important . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , just we just missed that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um I'll just uh {disfmarker} I'll get back to later . F the form well , we've taken that from the iPod , other popular technical device . So um should be popular . Um {disfmarker} The f uh the buttons creating ? Uh if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That or all round shapes , not uh rounded corners ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that , you know , you get a bit round feeling . Um we'll use hard plastic . Since that allows us to use uh two D_ buttons , uh non-rubber buttons . Colour changeable . Well and um the backlight thing , the thing that lights up . We have decided uh {vocalsound} in the the channel buttons , there's a little uh colour around it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also in the num-pads , there's also colour {gap} light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And do you still can , do you still can choose what colour , kind of colour you want ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when you pre Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How do you want to implement that ? Just on the {disfmarker} Maybe on the second level as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're going to implement . Yeah . Mm just a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , these are just basic functions , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All the non-basic are in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just draw draw the second level , because we need that as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , there is one uh function I use uh daily , and it's not on the basic functions . It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart . Play Station or uh D_V_D_ player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , maybe we use this button for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That function must be {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make make a {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To your video device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} A second level ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a new blank one or {disfmarker} Or just here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no , just on {disfmarker} Down there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is i Ah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And h how does the second level come out ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just uh if you s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it slides uh along ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um slides I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , y Maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "From from the uh beneath ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can do it that it claps open , but I think that's not solid enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , you gotta slide it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If that breaks then you're screwed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what do we need ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh i the the speech functions buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Menu ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Menu button . With uh maybe uh arrows . So you can uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "scroll in the , navigate the menu . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "God damn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scart ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think we can even put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah . And so y you keep you keep one , you have one left . Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have one left for the {disfmarker} Right , the video channel , Play Station , etcetera . That's used pretty often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this is the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you have a Play Station , mm you use it every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a f {vocalsound} basic uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Extern or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You want to save that file as well ? The drawing ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So here are multiple speech buttons , I don't know how many ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Doesn't really matter . Just just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't really matter ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know the functions ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah well we don't have any uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What else ? Uh menu buttons with arrows ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh menu ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , to navigate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "S Just uh like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {gap} With arrows ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um I think it's best if we do . Mm where do we have {disfmarker} Or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a normal um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like on the normal uh {disfmarker} Like this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with in the middle um a menu button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The menu button , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we don't have any , anything on how many buttons speech requires . So you can't redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and and you can hold it ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can hold it , and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just press it once , the colour should uh switch . Press again , the colour switch again maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or we just make it three buttons , all the colours on it . Just red , yel uh red , green and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , yeah . Th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we have enough place , uh then we can do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's that's very easy , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can put those here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Colour buttons . And then we choose green , uh blue and red or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . That's uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So did we miss anything ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel , that it is volume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} Some text uh buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , ma on on o on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just uh {disfmarker} The volume logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there's one there's one text button I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh wh Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah , or th or the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's one text button I prefer . That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page , uh like seven hundred , uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred , you will switch to your television and back to text ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have that on the the text button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you think of that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext . You just switch it off and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh why not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just put it on those extra f extra function as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ex Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No {disfmarker} Whoa {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well w we thought of a text button . And if you press it again , you get the the the"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The sta the state you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just three stages , you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "through view ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the three stages . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b but but if you're in the second stage , the third stage is switch teletext off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can switch back from second to w first ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it doesn't have to turn it off . Just don't {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . Just remember where it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page . If you if you turn teletext on , you you set the seven hundred , and you turn it off , then the next time you turn it on , it still stays on seven hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , that's to remember ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's that's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But maybe it's not the way {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a functionality for the television . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think as well , but {disfmarker} Uh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . That's maybe one thing we can discuss about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah mm nee uh {disfmarker} No , if i {vocalsound} uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred , page seven hundred to the television . Th th th if you switch it on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , in thi the the remote control in the"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , but you have to search every time again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Th i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's what what happening if you do it like that . But it's still the television that has to do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So yeah . Um do we need to fix that or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's what the television does ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} most new T_V_s do uh collect all the pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , those memory functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh not not every every television , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was uh this logo for uh volume ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . So that's it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is this prich pretty much it , yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I I thought about one thing . Uh the buttons ? Uh from which material are they now ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . No no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just like your telephone , hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just hard plastic . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because um if you use it a couple of years , some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away , are uh {disfmarker} And maybe we can write the numbers below or above ? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think just on the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If you do it abo above or below , it takes uh more space ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well yeah . That's too much place ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think the space is worth it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , just leave it . Just leave it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and i The most time {disfmarker} Yeah , with rubber buttons . Yeah , okay . {gap} Okay . Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Okay , cool . Mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah , I don't know what this means . But I think we just evela evaluated this one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I made some criteria uh , so we can uh ev evaluate our model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh okay , you made some criteria . Okay , cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I d d d I don't think if it's right . {vocalsound} That shall show it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have some usability criteria or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , uh all criterias we just argue about . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Look-and-feel ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , evaluation is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Evaluation crit Yeah , evaluation presentation . It's not in . Uh d it doesn't matter um {disfmarker} It only had two pages or something . {vocalsound} Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy , or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market . The Italians uh , how they think about it . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff . I made some criteria , and we have to test the criteria from one to zero . We sh we we we can give it uh a number , and then we can give ourself an average for our"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um {vocalsound} model ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this {disfmarker} These are all I I I found , or I wrote down . And um {vocalsound} we have to discuss about {vocalsound} , if we give it a one or a seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea . It quite beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are actu We are the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something . And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and {vocalsound} and that kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Flashy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Well I think we do {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The LEDs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If it's really uh , if you can if you can get the iPod look , then it's beautiful , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The basic colours are black or green or yellow ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um basic colours ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you haven't thought about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "um yeah . Well you didn't say ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ho how do we make uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe um company colours ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yellow light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A bit a bit of yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do we have yellow light ? No , not really , but it's possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not not yellow {gap} , but just a bit of light yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black white , maybe ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like white , also ni or uh always nice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And what colours should the buttons be ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Because um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , different colours . This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , the same as th th the cover . But also th the light behind it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But can you change those too , with uh the switch ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , no . Make them {disfmarker} No , just make them black or grey or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , grey . Just dark grey I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful ? Beautiful is uh really subjective , uh because it has to do lots with the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well we have changeable fronts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Changeable fronts , so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just give it a one . It's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's perfect . I think it's just what you want . Or not ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard to decide for us , but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . It's ju so subjective ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It it's {disfmarker} At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just give it a two . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . A two . Okay . The fancy look-and-feel . That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . And we can change the colours , so that's uh really fancy I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One more thing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are w are we changing uh {disfmarker} Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide panel ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No , it's only on the number , behind the numbers"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Not needed {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , not needed I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And and the switch channel is uh {disfmarker} There is a back light too ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That as well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , you mean th this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but that's unnecessary ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What do I think is necessary necessary item ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's pretty cool . If you slide it open , {vocalsound} it lights up . That's that's really fancy , but {vocalsound} I don't know if it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Of course it's reachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then we do it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , maybe just some light uh to to light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can see what's really there . Not just not re on the buttons or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a green light or some blue light . To light it all up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Mayb Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just backlight . Not not the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons , but behind the buttons . So the buttons are just grey ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well yeah . Uh semi-transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just only {disfmarker} Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , fine . So I I think it's very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah , that's how I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , w we've done a a lot of detail in light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I'll give it a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ye"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and you can uh also choose your light , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , this {disfmarker} It is a one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay . It's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's one . Okay , next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is a difficult one , because we we don't {disfmarker} Yeah , we don't know it about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Learnable ? Easy to use ? Yeah , we shall test it {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {vocalsound} it's it's very easy to use , but uh the second layer is not easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {disfmarker} That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but you don't have to use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think it's easy to use , but {disfmarker} And learnable is a bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Learnable ? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because because I think I think the scroll wheel , uh it's very handy , but the first time you get this thing in your hands , it's not to use the scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well y just uh f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think uh you must uh seek for it , and up or down or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the rest of it is very easy ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh then the re"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because there are so so n"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's very clear what it all does ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the second parts , uh like speech , etcetera , that will be harder to learn ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well , if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls . So we h we have speech , uh the scroll wheel , and um the the the slide . You must slide it . And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um {vocalsound} easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Because easy to use comes after learnable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker} Easy to use is very cool ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I I think it a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so just give it a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe three then . Learnable's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , but definitely better , much better than uh than uh than avera average , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm uh . The normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , true . Then a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New features . Techno technological innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The speech function and the colour . Colour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The speech function is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the scrollwheel , backlights , slide ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The scrollwheel and the slide . Uh I think the slide is pretty new ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Slide is not n is is not new . No . I already have a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I only saw it in a telephone , not in an remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I already have a V_C_R_ and it's about from nineteen eighty eight . And they all have a slide in it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's not new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But also slide that buttons come out , as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , and the the the lightning ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that new ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah for a {disfmarker} Uh for a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The lighting's new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm it's pretty new , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Scrollwheel . Speech ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Speech is new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different colours , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , different fronts for a remote control , I think that's new too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have a pretty new uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There are no games on it , that's that's {disfmarker} It's not a one , it's a two again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That would {disfmarker} And we didn't uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's it's it's not not L_C_D_ or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But then we also have the the home station ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We are forgetting about that now , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Oh yeah , that's right . Rechargeable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We don't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Home-station ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "recharge ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we didn't draw that too , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But that's more like uh now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just draw it afterwards . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's just a normal th s simple thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you {disfmarker} Can you save it on the same , in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project uh map ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Just save , save as ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Uh save as ? No , that's not in the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it's a already in the folder . L like number seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , okay . Smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one is not yet in the {disfmarker} Oh oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think it is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh untitled ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it doesn't matter . Save ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you still have to draw the resi the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh all {vocalsound} the the seven , uh all the seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And new features , so we give it a two or also again a one ? No , I think i if you have games on it , then then you give you have a one . But not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , we are not extraordinary new or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just so it's still a two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "N"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm two , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha tha that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Targeted audience . Uh we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we we we searched for uh um {vocalsound} a young group , audience , beneath f forty ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but l younger than forty . So we we are exactly the targeted group ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , but did we reach , um {vocalsound} with our uh style , the targeted audience ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th that's my question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You get the fancy things for younger people . And you get the the aesthetic things for older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel , and that's what attracts the young audience . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "think that's a two or a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh {disfmarker} {gap} That's {gap} that's {gap} {vocalsound} That's this question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but s it {disfmarker} That's basically not not handy . And {vocalsound} I don't thi I don't see {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we targeted it ? But we didn't follow the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} No . Yeah , you could make a a front"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . I think we followed the latest trends ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a front that's that's like uh like a banana , {vocalsound} or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh {vocalsound} get on my computer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh right . Well uh fruit and vegetables , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you get different colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can different front uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a a f banana kind of front ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . But spongy will never be . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we give ourself a three or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's eleven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's the average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eleven divided by six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it is one point eight three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A perfect score . {vocalsound} No , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not too hard on ourselves . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a a power indicator . So you can see how far it's charged up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And and you need n uh a button to call it , to let it beep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To call ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah , that's still {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Call {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but uh we have to make a speaker then too . If you want to make it beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe we have to skip that one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No no , I want that in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's {disfmarker} Yeah , but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , we need that . That's usable . That's really usable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you do uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th the speaker is very small as well , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just got a financial um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} You s {vocalsound} saved it or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I did save it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Okay , let's have a look at this one here , the production cost of it . If I forgot anything , just say it to me . It just is a battery . Yeah , there are some that they didn't mention , because recharge is not on the list . But okay . So I think we are pretty much in the right direction , because it's twelve point three Euros . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm {vocalsound} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh is uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's both ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Come on , it's perfect . Uh twelve point three point three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and single curved curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that's not on the list . But that shouldn't be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can we make that for uh h twenty cents ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Probably . I just {disfmarker} The b the button supplements , I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was {disfmarker} I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {vocalsound} different fronts , but standard front won't be , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See it's {disfmarker} I think it's okay like this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special form , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's hard to say . But maybe we have to um {disfmarker} Yeah , {gap} okay . Special colour , you can skip this one , because it's all quite normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We get different ones , that's all . So you can put a recharger in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But this is expensive , the sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four . It's four Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , them . Is that uh included ? In the twelve Euro or"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's included ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So we are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , then we then we need to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's kind of weird that we {vocalsound} we get this information now , afterwards . Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so this is uh pretty much it this {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Damn , solar cells are uh expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {gap} I just want you {disfmarker} Yeah , we just made it . So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We can do some discussion about this . Was there room for creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Paul , was there room for crea creativity ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh i Yeah , I think so . I think uh everyone uh {gap} already . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or a different style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "then there {vocalsound} we probably have been creative ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . We could make a lot of different uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's creativity ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the leadership {disfmarker} Was there a leadership and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Of course there was ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you have to say about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Who was the leader ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Just normal discussion , I think . Not"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one leader or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One leader to check the time , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And make notes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So more like a secretary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh team work um {disfmarker} The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard . We were not all {disfmarker} We were not um agree with every not agree with {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . We were not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , w we had so much information , that we get through email and just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're not finished ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think we {vocalsound} we got wrong information at the wrong time . I think that was the m biggest problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like uh the prices . If we knew that before , we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , th that's weird ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and if you had uh fifteen Euros , then we would {gap} it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We had to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm hmm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , finance ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But the teamwork was okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh everybody could speak their uh opinion . And uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh everyone listen to each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . 'Kay . Yeah , what I have to say about uh means . The smart board is okay . Digital pen is horrible . I dunno if you use it . But if you want to download it to your computer , it's doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with , if it worked really well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just not work too slow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i if if it would be faster , it would be great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the drawings are are hard to make , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more accurate . Yeah , it's i It should be more accurate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Precise ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from , just with a mouse , from where you're sitting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not just pointing out on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the same for the presenta for the presentations . You can do it from here . That's much easier than standing there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And so you've {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and p just point with a mouse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No use to draw on the board itself . It's just slows down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you might as well do it in normal computer style ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , even harder to draw like this than black board style ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And it's far too slow this way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You cou You could draw on it , but not as main function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} I think {disfmarker} Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Digital pen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we made it in time . {vocalsound} And we made a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We did it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the budget , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "New ideas found ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "For for for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what it mean . Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just think if we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} To gather , or to uh work together , uh or new ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For remote control probably ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , for the project . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For remote control , a favourite for your text ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , for the prototype . New ideas ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but still , you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this . Because we don't have any sizes and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But it's for the next team . We don't have to do that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it {disfmarker} You can't possibly do that in such a short time , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's for {gap} . Yeah , this this is just the idea phase , the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just brainstorming basically ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Details uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So are we finished ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , I think just {disfmarker} I just write a final report ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Quite early ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we have only four minutes left . Uh it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , what do we have to do now . Do we uh {disfmarker} I thought we were done at four o'clock ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's now quarter past three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} I should take some pictures uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm we can do it afterwards , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Let's play minesweeper ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I found it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ti-din ti-din ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} One two three four five six seven cameras . Mm not bad ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Now we can look at this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} We're probably not supposed to look at this , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The old versions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , from the previous group . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They went for uh for a universal device ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The touchscreen , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but also a different device {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then an L_C_D_ uh would be handy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Here are the basic functions in here , the selecting dev devices ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and touch screens for all our stuff , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do agree with that . Yeah , tu-dum . English is not so hard by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm breaking a world record here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , leader ? Project Manager ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh shit . {vocalsound} We've got a problem , Paul ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You do ? Yeah , you have to make a choice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . No it's your choice ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wow , that's pretty quick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dum . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just pick one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to decide . It's the lower one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What's this ? A bomb or not a bo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the upper one is the bomb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This the bomb ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Wrong . Shit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I knew it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I knew it . {vocalsound} Four in a row ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound} That's too much work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that previous work ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , this one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I challenge you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that's so stupid . No , that doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you gotta use the magic pen . Hmm . What if I put one there ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's stupid ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We'll see ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you had two choices . That's gonna be draw . Or not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll put it here . You are going to put it there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , then I put it there . {vocalsound} No one wins ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a difficult choice , either here or there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is a very interesting design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Ugly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's just the same as normal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh {gap} a pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it has a L_C_D_ , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then do it correctly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Stupid design . Stupid . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} And what else do we have ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Stupid , the L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay wait , I'm going to draw something and you must y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What ? Okay , I'm going to guess what you're drawing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , blank ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , the new one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh they just don't save it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker} I know uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A house ? Yeah , you have to use the pen s stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to save everything , you know that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , not everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , everything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pen , select select pen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Pen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wants to know what we do in our spare time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . It's a house . A plant ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , it's {vocalsound} Only you can know it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah , I can know it . It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's uh very hard to draw ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , that makes it easier . I think I know . No , wrong ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think I know what you're trying to draw , but it's wrong already ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's {vocalsound} very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you missed the right side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fuck . F"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , you're wrong , you're wrong"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A little bit maybe , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} See where you're wrong now ? The entrance ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Finish meeting now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , the entrance is uh more to the left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Warning . Warning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You're correct ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But but but I think this part {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh no you {vocalsound} made another mistake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh . Yeah , there are a lot of mistakes , because the walls are thick like this ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I w Okay , I'm not that whiny . But uh there was a big hole here as well , and there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , that's true . Uh here . Yeah , they're walking behind the walls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's a kinda big mistake . {vocalsound} Warning , finish meeting now . Guys , I think we have to finish the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay this is a hard one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Boom-boa-ring-bing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What does it say ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fill in the questionnaire . What now ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No more chit-chat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh you gotta finish"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Che-che-che-che ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "over there ? In your own room ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm gonna be so lonely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tu-dumm . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm I'll clean that up later . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This is {disfmarker} That's my new interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What's that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a uh edited smiley . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Tom-ti-dom . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What did User Interface say was the biggest problem when discussing the project finance?", "answer": "User Interface mentioned that they got the wrong information at the wrong time, and it was the biggest problem. Otherwise, the group could finish the finance discussion earlier, and they should have had discussions quicker."}, {"id": 148, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The team mainly planned the remote control project down to the last detail in the final meeting. Industrial Designer presented the prototype as a clam-shell design with a flip-top LCD touch screen and fully closed flat buttons at the bottom. There would be a wide choice of colours and patterns due to customization. Inside the remote control, there would be a standard chip and a kinetic battery. The team was under the budget at present. Once the budget increased, however, the voice recognition would be incorporated. The remote control's fashion style and location function were most highly rated among the team members, but the minimization of repetitive strain injury was not satisfying enough. All members gave their sincere feedback on teamwork and leadership."}, {"id": 149, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "What did the group discuss about simulation market evaluation of the new remote control?", "answer": "Marketing summarized the user requirements according to the market reports. Users expected a fancy look, technological innovation, and minimization of repetitive strain injury. The team did a preliminary rating using a seven-point scale. The results were that the remote control's fashion style and location function were most highly rated, but the team was not satisfied enough with the minimization of repetitive strain injury. The team agreed on further modifications to the current prototype."}, {"id": 150, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "What did Marketing think of the incorporation of current fashion trends in the prototype when making a simulation market evaluation of the new remote control?", "answer": "Marketing initially doubted that Industrial Designer was limited in the use of materials for the prototype, which would harm the fashion style. Marketing was soon convinced by Industrial Designer, however, that the changeable faces would allow users to customize their remote controls. Besides, the rubber case would give a spongy feel. Marketing thus rated one point for Industrial Designer's style design."}, {"id": 151, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "What's the conclusion of the minimization of repetitive strain injury when making simulation market evaluation of the new remote control?", "answer": "Marketing considered the design of pointers unfeasible, for many users were prone to zap. Project Manager recommended the slight and small-sized buttons with more space in between. Regretfully, the team failed to come up with a perfectly feasible solution to the problem. The team thus gave low rate points to the prototype's minimization of repetitive strain injury."}, {"id": 152, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about cost calculation and budget issues.", "answer": "The team calculated the cost of the remote control in the Euro. The team included one regular chip, one kinetic cell, one double-curved bottom, one push button, one LCD screen, as well as rubber and plastic materials. The team decided to recommend voice recognition to business customers. Once the budget increased, voice recognition would be incorporated. Overall, the present cost was 12.5 Euros and was under the budget."}, {"id": 153, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "What did User Interface think of the replacement of the kinetic batteries when discussing cost calculation and budget issues?", "answer": "User Interface recommended the standard batteries to replace the kinetic batteries and lower the cost. Marketing was promised by User Interface that the change in battery type would not make any big difference in shape and colours. However, Marketing was still uncertain about the replacement. User Interface further explained that users were used to paying little attention to batteries which were installed internally."}, {"id": 154, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you leave them on the whole time you get to look like a noodle the whole time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that someone's ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} three , apparently ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , you all switched on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , me too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we're good to go . Okay , um minutes um we decided to use a kinetic charger ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "standard chip , um 'cause it can come in various different sizes , it wasn't uh uh gonna be a problem factor . We wanted a stand-by function . The case material is gonna be soft , rubbery , changeable . Um buttons with a combination of L_C_D_ and rubber according to the design . Um bright funky designs inspired by fruit , keeping with the hip kind of feel . Um {vocalsound} and to try and incorporate voice recognition software into our design until we can find out more about the cost of things like that . Um {vocalsound} and the rubber buttons that we'll use will be anti-R_S_I_ . Okay ? Prototype presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is that {gap} for us ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that would be you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me and William worked on a prototype , and I think William is going to make a p presentation on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , shall I show ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll show . Though do you do you wanna do you wanna sh do you wanna hold it"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I can hold it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Make sure the camera's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I'll I'll show you the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can I just nick your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , yes you can . Wait a second , I'll get it out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Whoa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It looks"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Going a bit crazy over here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "crazy {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um not now . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} You should have one of those things and you can just take it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ta-da ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , where are the hinges ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "this is our look and feel presentation , the final {disfmarker} our final presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm 'kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we'll first look at the exterior of what we've uh come up with over there . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . You able to look {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's gonna have a a plastic body {vocalsound} um with a sort of standard colour , either we're thinking some something fairly neutral like a a white or a light blue or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This is underneath the rubberised the rubberised uh outer casing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um which there'd be sort of a wide choice {disfmarker} they would be attached , but we can we can come up with that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the um wide choice of colours and sort of patterns , so you've got you've got a lot of customisation with it . Um {vocalsound} it's obviously an a sort of clam-shell design {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh {vocalsound} the um the top L_C_D_ screen that you can see that would b would be sort of um {vocalsound} how do you say , it's {disfmarker} yeah yeah , it would be sort of inset into the into the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The black and white touch screen wherein people can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . So it's flush ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the buttons at the bottom would d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so so it'll fully close flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And working on the inside we've um already said {disfmarker} d decided on the kinetic batteries , which {disfmarker} actually , thinking about it now , could y could also probably attach to the flipping open and shut as well , so that you could probably get a bit of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So put it in the top section rather than the bottom sections ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's the top part that's {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um we decided that um the voice recognition system , it did actually say on the email that they were sort of coming in {vocalsound} and they were fairly easy to get a-hold of , so we presumed that they'd also be quite cheap . So you'd have something like where you'd shout out , where where is the remote and it'll shout back , I'm here , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Or something . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And then {disfmarker} yeah . It wo it won't shout out I'm here or something . It'll just shout out I'm here , or something to similar effect ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm under the sofa ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah oka"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , that would be too complicated ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , if it was going like I d well tha that could be something for next time , maybe . You can have a remote that tells you exactly where it is . Um the standard , there's {disfmarker} be a standard transmission with the T_V_ using using all the standard chips that we've talked about ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Infrared {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it would it would have {disfmarker} obviously 'cause it's split over two two different layers , it would need two separate P_C_B_s , so it would be joined at the hinge through some sort of cabling . {vocalsound} And uh because , obviously , all T_V_s use this , the same infrared medium , we'd just be using using the same thing to transmit the data . And the infrared um sender would be on the {disfmarker} on one of the bot the bottom layer , just at the front of the {disfmarker} we haven't {disfmarker} I don't think we actually put it on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Infrared could be here also . Yeah , here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Actually , no , it would be {disfmarker} it would have to be on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on the front on the front side of that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . So when it's {disfmarker} even if it's open here , the signals would go {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right , yeah , okay , yeah , I've got you . It's still pointing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you've actually got it open , it would be facing the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that would make sense ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then finally um on to the interface . {vocalsound} The top screen , as we said , is {disfmarker} would be an inset um black and white L_C_D_ s touch screen"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} This one right here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which {disfmarker} yeah would uh have all of all of the the available functions for for the remote on it , uh whereas the bot the bottom screen would just contain the standard buttons , like the vo volume up and down , channel up and down , power on and off , and uh things to that effect ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And now we've {disfmarker} we also decided on the inside , we could possibly either have um some some kind of sort of bezzled uh logo on it , or something inset , or maybe an engraving of the logo on the top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But not interfering with the outside kind of look of the product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No d not not actually . No , not uh interfering with l the whole look of the the product when it's uh on the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "once it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Look up to it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And finally that's how we put the fashion back into electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "as that is {disfmarker} that's the company logo {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wrapping it all up , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I've now got evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Certainly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is the one . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's to be presented {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There you go . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Logged in ? Thank you . Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Evaluation . {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm um I I think this is {gap} chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite similar to what it was before , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research . {vocalsound} So this is the first stage of the evaluation . Now , the collection of the criteria , as we saw in our previous meeting , was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company . So it's what we've discussed in the last meeting , are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with , just a recap , are here . The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel , technological innovation , it should be easy to use , it should incorporate current fashion trends , and those {disfmarker} the two main ones , they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} The design should minimise R_S_I_ and be easy to locate and we were still um uh slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there , though that did seem to be the favoured strategy , but there was also , on the sideline , the though of maybe having a beeper function . {vocalsound} Okay , so we can come back to that slide , if you don't have a note of those . I'll just show you how we're going to evaluate our own feedback to this , to what we have so far . We're going to use a seven point scale , where one is true and seven is false . We look at each of those criteria that I've just mentioned , I'll call that slide back up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah , it's perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to look at these crite So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it everybody is going to evaluate , or just the Market {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're going to come to {disfmarker} w we'll discuss each one"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we'll come to a consensus rating between one and seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One is true , seven is false . Right . So I won't write all of that out again . It will just be criteria one , two , three , four , five , six , or A_ , B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ to confuse it with the number rating . B_ , C_ , D_ , E_ , F_ . {vocalsound} This is where I realise how tiny I actually am . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Just write small ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Criteria and rating . Actually , it might be an idea , if we each did give our own individual rating , and we could take an average at the end . How about that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That works ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So I'll just separate the ratings by obliques , and if we go one , two , three , four , we know who's who ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Criteria A_ , the fancy look and feel . How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy {disfmarker} it is a fancy look and feel . One is true , seven is false . My own rating for that would be a two . One is true and seven is false ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I would agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd uh yeah I'd probably put it uh {vocalsound} two {disfmarker} yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just go this way ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , three . Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I would say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A four , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Adding those up , we've got a six and a five , eleven divided by four is what ? Uh two and three quarters , it that right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Almost three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and three quarters ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Two point seven five , there we go . {vocalsound} Okay , criteria B_ , criterion B_ , technologically innovative . I would give that a three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'd give it a one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Not that you're biased {vocalsound} in that it {disfmarker} the designer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , not at all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry , I I got it wrong . The first one rating , I'm sorry . Can you just make it two ? The first ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The average {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I I just {gap} it the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh , for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you're saying ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh in {gap} Yep , I just got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , I'll work out the average for that again at the end . It's a very slightly altered {disfmarker} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "two point f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and we're just waiting for your rating"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just two point five for that one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "f"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two point five , okay . Losing one decimal place , that's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One is a {gap} , seven is false , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So what are you rating for this one , Paw ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two , okay . So that is eight . That brings it down to two ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "nice and simple , yeah . Okay , ease of use . Easy to use ? Based on what you've said there , I would say a one , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would say a two . I would say a two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A two , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . I should've said a two to make the arithmetic easy , shouldn't I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} We'll just put almost two ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point seven f five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because I'm not gonna get into silly decimal places ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Or we {disfmarker} or if we want to really bring it down , we can do later . Um mm now we're looking at"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it incorporates current fashion trends , now that's particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . So I'm just thinking , before I give it my rating , you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , the the base colour was um {vocalsound} white or or like or l sort of a light blue ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "White . With {disfmarker} for the plastic ? Uh blue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the changeable fa faces would uh allow you to get any {disfmarker} basically any one of a number of colours that uh th it's full sort of customised ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that's what we're intending to do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the spongy feel is no problem with that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , because you'll be having a {disfmarker} Because of the rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , 'cause th that's that's the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it , that {disfmarker} otherwise it's just sort of hard plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . In that case it's got to be a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'll give it a one as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Everybody ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} That part was nice and easy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Uh moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think we've really touched on that a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've we've discussed it , we haven't really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that . We've talked about pointers , but the very use of a remote control , if you're someone who's zapping , who's sitting like that , and we found so many people did , how do you minimise that on such a small device ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the type of button that we're gonna use in the bottom half , the material , minimises R_S_I_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's meant to be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's meant to . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe because it's slightl"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "with the size that we've got it's quite small ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but with the amount of stuff we're putting on it isn't that much ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe because there's more space , it's not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's quite obvious just big buttons . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . I think I'm gonna have to be neutral on that and give it a four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I'd uh I'd f I'd go for a five , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A five , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four and a four okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Twenty one {disfmarker} is that twenty one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So that's four point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And finally , last but not least , easy to locate . Now we talked about voice recognition , we talked about a beeper , have we really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was it was uh a voice voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Voice r recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It was the I'm here thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yep . And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible , cost-wise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} yeah , that's feasible ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That sounds good then . I'd go for a {disfmarker} I ca we can adjust the volume on that , just as we could volume on T_V_ . So if sombody's in the other room or if T_V_s in different rooms , or ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A standard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it would be quite loud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would be s p"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You built into the feature ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if you didn't hear it in the room that you were standing in , then you'd realise that it wasn't in that room , you'd go into another room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Logical . That's a one for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and one , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I do realise that we might be being fairly biased , 'cause it is our product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "how do we feel about this ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We've got our our {disfmarker} we've got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the uh six criteria there . That is for um incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate . The lowest rating we've got , which is really n it's not terribly low , i it's close around neutral is for uh the minimisation of repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it , or do we have to make further modifications ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W I thin yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We happy to go ahead ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we {disfmarker} yeah . I think we're set ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I think for most of those ratings that it's high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that , and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities , we could actually do much more to minimise that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do much apart from having a huge big {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know . Okay . Well , I hope that's uh clear to the team . Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good . Fine then . I'll just leave it there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I've got finance here now . I'm gonna plug this in so you can all see it , if that's okay . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You want me to b unplug that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's all . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now I presume that the screen will go blank ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that um {disfmarker} Okay . We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value . So are we still on for kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . See , it woulda been handy to have this at the beginning . Um it might have influenced our choice . Right , what's happening with the electronics ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It was a regular chip on print"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Chip on print ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , no , no , no , the um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's {disfmarker} you you've put in three for the number of kinetic cells , there should just be one . In the top , it's the number"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of c yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , would there be two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} yeah , just a {disfmarker} no , one reg v uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One chip ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're double curved . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y Two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two curves , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause it's two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit . So it can rest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what's a single curve then ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say I'd say it was w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just be a flat bottom with one curve . {gap} like a domed thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I think I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Single-cu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So just one double {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One double-curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic and rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no , 'cause one {disfmarker} yeah , one's double-curved , and then the other one's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other curves at the sides , but it's slightly flattened at the bottom so it doesn't roll over . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Um we've got plastic and rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "a plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic one and maybe rubber point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And special colour ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No I think rubber , since it's being used just as a casing ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we can put point five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you think ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it allows the point five , yeah . We can use that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What does it mean if you put point five for that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually . We're using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be like saying we're using {disfmarker} See , it says case material . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're not actually using plastic in the case , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , that's {disfmarker} it's as an extra ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's including , it's including ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that shouldn't that shouldn't be actually on there , because that's not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it is gonna be part of the total cost , and there's nowhere else we can we can put that in , is there ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There's nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing . So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll just put it in as we'll put in as half ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or sh we should just put it in as one , because the plastic is zero anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , we don't step on anyone's toes . Okay , special colour , do we need that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Might do , if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "N yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Interface ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Push-button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the push-button's one and L_C_ display one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "An One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And buttons {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we could change the battery also . Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has that not made any d if you click off that square now , has that not made any difference ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has that not gone up ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} oh , it's brought it slightly down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh no , it was seven five it's changed not a lot ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that going to make a difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uncurved , flat ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , it's not made any difference , has it? ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it just surprises one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we'll have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's gone up again ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , it's not calculated it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no , you've got to click off to calculate it again ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , there we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} It's brought it down slightly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's not a lot though ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "C it might uh you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros . It could be in Dollars . And then it would be fine , because the exchange range would make it about twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We haven't been dealin we haven't been dealing with dollars though ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is there anything on the menu {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ri I think it's in Euro {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the highest we've got is the electronics here . Um {vocalsound} and the interface ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we tr um . If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries , would that make a huge difference ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And going to a regular bat Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the standard , it {vocalsound} um it would make one difference . The biggest one would be taking away {disfmarker} if you took away {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I feel is , customers never said anything about the battery {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's internal , nobody looks into the battery ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But shape and colours , that's something we shouldn't comprimi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And people are used to buying batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If if you take away the voice ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they're not gonna say I'm not getting this , 'cause I've got to buy a battery for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I do I don't like to say it , but if you take away the voice recognition , then you've got it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where's that special form ? Mm mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we see what difference it makes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where's the"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah i yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "where's the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No 'cause it's samples sens sample speaker ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you took away that , that'll make it twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well the kinetic is three . If we change it to the battery it's {disfmarker} that's minus three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They {vocalsound} n n yeah , but you p minus three plus two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , right . I keep seeing zero . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We can do it some other way ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we can do {disfmarker} it doesn't have to be voice recognition . We could do the voice recognition for , you know , business class or something , you know , like an upgraded version ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You could choose to have that or not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But they {disfmarker} but I mean in {disfmarker} I don't see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now , because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we're still working to um head o"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So should we just change the design specification then ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Make it costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We can put in our recommendations . If we if we're working to head office specifications as {disfmarker} this is what this project team's working for , we can put in our recommendations for what we've we've found and what we {disfmarker} the consensus that we've come to as a result of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We c we could s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we need to work to that specification to start with ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful , but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is gonna make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance . Um as you say , we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we can make the price fit ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then say if we'd had our budget , we would've had this ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And then say we recommend {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it also sets it apart from the crowd ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause we've done all the background work to go for that if they want it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They like their gadgets , they like something that's completely different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's {vocalsound} s something completely different associated with your company ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if we take voice recognition out {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That'll do it . Twelve point three five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we are close to the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} we are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's two point five . No , it's twelve point two five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are you sure ? Sorry , not meaning to doubt your words there ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah well two , twelve point two five times two is twenty five ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . {vocalsound} Are they really going to quibble about ten P_ ? Or point zero one of a Euro ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point five maybe , then ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is less than ten P_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know what {disfmarker} it said fifty percent of the cost . So half of the price would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think the agenda one was where the um price was , wasn't it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it is the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's today's kick off meeting , {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve point five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . {gap} I thought that's what it was ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are under the budget ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well done , people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is that uh got us covered for the electronics then ? We don't need something else to take that place ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause that that was just a bought-on extra , you could just take that out and that would be fine , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Seems fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think that's brilliant ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Except voice recognition , everything is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , so we've done that . Okay . Product evaluation . We've done room for creativity , haven't we ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we've got decisions that we would have made that we weren't {disfmarker} didn't feel able to make . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume we discussed leadership and teamwork ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um in the sense that um did you feel like a team ? Or did you feel like {vocalsound} uh autonomy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I'd say , as a team ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we had a nice time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Although we had our separate tasks ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "there was so much interaction , so much that we needed to um bounce off each other ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Find out from each other , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And I've certainly felt heard , listened to in that in relevant areas we've been able to , you know , give and take and adjust our remit where necessary ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think there was uh very constructive feedback by everybody . It's not like people trying to cut each other . There is more of uh true cohesive teamwork . We came to a very predic creative design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I think . And Sarah , you coordinated the work very well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thank you . How did you find it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no , I thought it it went really well and I yeah , I I feel that everyone was listened to and all the points that were raised seem to have been sorted out , although we didn't quite make the voice recognition in there , but that's that's good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it would have made it into the final product if it was actually {disfmarker} if if if we'd seen the marketing before the initial specification was put out , I think maybe it would've come out a d little different ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I liked the fact that we could say an idea and it'd be suggested that that wasn't the best idea , but no one felt like shot down ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , y it didn't matter it saying what you thought , because if it wasn't something that was that relevant , then it didn't matter , 'cause it was just another idea in the field . I like that . Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "teamwork . Well you two created that wonderful specimen of a Play-Doh model ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think that was the best part"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} uh I'm still not caught up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But that's nothing to do with the teamwork at all . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe we should think of branching out into children's toys and fake mobile phones as a side line . And fake R_C_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , that was quite fun . Um {vocalsound} means , whiteboard , digital pens , etcetera , what does that mean ? Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Discuss which ones {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How do we evaluate the materials we had for communicating and sharing information ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could it've been better , was it adequate ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I think we probably woulda used the outer email system more , had we actually had had more time and if we'd been separated more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Had time to kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , 'cause we could just sort of say , sorry what did you say about that or what do you think about that , rather than having to email it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it was nice having it there . Um like the whole picture of the thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} moving around the room . {vocalsound} But I think it's good ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like uh we spent times individually . I never thought of a remote control with a flip top . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's new ideas in general ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's really borrowing from other areas , it's , you know , bringing things from other areas in ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "rather than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it so it's {disfmarker} I mean nothing is new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's applying it to a d in a different area ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} That's mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no . Well"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they have to come from somewhere , don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Absolutely , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And as sh as w sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep , sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "go on Sarah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um as was shown by {vocalsound} your presentation with all of the other controls , remote controls , no one's thought about it particularly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they're slightly different , so if someone's been shut in the room and said make ours a bit different from everyone else's , 'cause it's w something we should think about ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but obviously no one's put any great deal of thought into it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I do I don't think the the companies are really concerned . They're just like we've got a D_V_D_ player , does anyone remember the remote control ? Can't you get the one that we used for the last one ? Yeah , just jazz it up a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh d they don't really think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because normally , the remote control isn't the product which they're trying to ship . They're trying to ship the D_V_D_ player , the video player , the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , the focus isn't on to that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then when it everything is really smart , and you've just got this big chunk of black thing sitting on your coffee table , it doesn't go ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean if you could have something that's a proper funky thing , a funky item that's individual , individual to you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean they could even go into um you go in with an idea and they design it on Photoshop and then they just get it printed on the plastic , you would pray {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you would pay a lot extra , because it's individually being {disfmarker} a plastic was being made for you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But people could {gap} have anything that they wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Surprising to me is like uh people give a lot of attention to modifying mobile phones , like a real want to see a new launch or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because of the produ Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And new f television products coming up ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but nobody giving uh much idea to this . Like Sarah was telling , everything's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's really good that this has been very market research based ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because {vocalsound} just going back to mobile phones , I mean this is the first change in remote control devices that I can really , you know , say is is obvious and visible . We see it in mobile phones a lot , and tha that's where we've borrowed a lot of our ide our ideas from . There are innovations in that that people don't really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I see people wanting a model of the phone they were really happy with , and they can't get it anymore"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's innovation for innovation's sake , and I think it's wonderful our company's so R_ and D_ based ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it's innovation for money's sake ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The the people have to keep buying ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But forcing it onto people ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . It's things that , you know , they might want to buy the thing they really want ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can't get {disfmarker} you've got your handset that works fine , but you can't get the battery anymore for that type of phone ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because the phones have moved on , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or there isn't a cover to fit it or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's madness . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In closing {disfmarker} There we go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} our costs are below budget with recommendations that they {disfmarker} the budget be increased , but I think {disfmarker} I don't know , d what do you think ? Do you think that's takes into account um overheads like us being well paid kind of a thing ? And the heating for the building , do you think our budget includes everything , all the costs that are going out ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it was just the produc uh just the production cost of the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that was just the the physical ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it looks {disfmarker} well it looks like it's gonna be fifty percent profit , you've still got all of the overheads to come out of that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe increasing it , you would also have to increase the price that it's sold at ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe fifty percent more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I think {disfmarker} but you were saying that that's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker} yeah I don't {disfmarker} from the market research ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think in the remit that we were given , it was very specific . I think we've done what we were required to do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think there'll have to be another project team or a new project for us to look at at those kind of things . I don't think that's something we have to look at and find a way of raising the cash for ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No . Yeah , it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think we've done very well to get within budget"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it still makes such an innovative item"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that I think people are really gonna want ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a shame it won't ever get made . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Who knows ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe it will ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe it will . Maybe they are gonna steal our ideas"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe someone'll r run down and patent it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it's top secret . Um it's it is it's a conspiracy going on here . That's what it is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the project has been evaluated well and truly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and we've got the meeting survey and questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's a final questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , so we've got about fifty minutes to catch up with {vocalsound} {vocalsound} everything that I fell behind with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} In your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'll be delegating in my um role as Project Supervisor ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so good luck ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Celebration , you didn't talk about that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the celebration is the twenty five pounds ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Either that or we'll be dancing on the desks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Is that it then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , just the last , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Awesome ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I've got minutes for two of the meeting and the last thingy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Questionnaire done . Oh , I didn't have to rate you on how much you influenced the meeting this time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Was that not the questionnaire for the {disfmarker} how you felt you'd done in your thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But do we not sometimes evaluate in these meetings too ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the the s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . I think {disfmarker} yeah , questionnaire seven was the one I did just before the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just got con"}], "query": "What's the conclusion of the incorporation of voice recognition when discussing cost calculation and budget issues?", "answer": "Industrial Designer implicated that if the kinetic batteries were replaced by the standard batteries, the voice recognition would have to be taken away as well. Project Manager, therefore, made a compromise that the team might provide the voice recognition in an upgraded version for the business class who expected high office specifications."}, {"id": 155, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The meeting was mainly about the reasons behind and the measurements against the increasing exclusions from school. The increase brought more pressure to EOTAS in the aspects of finance, transition, curriculum arrangement and the recruitment of professional staff. Although much time and finance had been devoted to the PRU, the education quality could still not be assured. The collaboration between the PRU and the schools required to be strengthened. Besides, training for special education ought to be included in teachers' colleges to meet EOTAS learners' special needs. Their psychological health was another concerning problem."}, {"id": 156, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about the funding issues?", "answer": "The committee admitted that the funding issues brought more pressure on schools, especially after the new Act, for they would have to spend more in the light of it. It was pointed out that the government had not noticed the staff in the PRU, who required training. The committee was trying to communicate with Estyn and the Welsh Government for a broader range of measures to provide opportunities for schools and local authorities."}, {"id": 157, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did David Hopkins think of the new Act?", "answer": "David Hopkins agreed with Sharon Davies that the new Act would exert more pressure on schools. However, he denied that the levels of the delegation would have any impact. Meanwhile, he suggested that it would be better for the schools' headmasters and local authorities to look at the new Act more constructively, for it would be beneficial for the post-16 sector."}, {"id": 158, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What was considered by David Hopkins as the factor that affected exclusions?", "answer": "David Hopkins did not think that the delegation levels were not high enough in most authority areas. Instead, he thought they had got agreements with the government to make sure that enough money was devolved to school. The true decisive factor was the narrow measure at the end of Stage 4 that drove the headmasters to exclude students or put them into another school."}, {"id": 159, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about the networking within the PRU and the transition arrangements?", "answer": "There had been improvements in the networking within the PRU, for they had national meetings on a regular basis, which could lead to a better sharing of practice. The PRU was planning to provide teachers with professional training. On the transition arrangement, the PRU was building a brand new provision in Swansea. The PRU would support students through a part-time timetable back into school. Besides, the support would not stop as soon as the students returned to school; the reduction of support would be managed."}, {"id": 160, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What was the major challenge of the transition of the excluded students?", "answer": "The students coming to the end of their statutory education were facing the biggest challenge, for it would be far more difficult for them to go back into the mainstream education process when they turned 15 or 16, not to mention the transition into further education, such as colleges."}, {"id": 161, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What was the solution to the major challenge for the transition of the excluded students?", "answer": "Sharon Davies recommended the team-around-the-family approach to ensure what was needed for learners to go back into school, as well as what the school could provide. She pointed out the importance of the whole package of support, which not only surrounded the learners but also their families. In addition, she gave an example of the PRU in Oxford who built the partnership between the school and the PRU student to demonstrate the responsibility of schools and the significance of school participation."}, {"id": 162, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about the pros and cons of local authoritative frameworks?", "answer": "One of the advantages was that youngsters' voice could be heard in time if they showed the willingness to go back into school; the framework offered the excluded learners a cooling-off period. The disadvantage was mainly some individual schools' lack of capacity to organize and offer additional training. Monitor and evaluation systems of the EOTAS provision were supposed to be set up to ensure the education quality."}, {"id": 163, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did Sharon Davies think of the role that local authorities should take in the quality assurance of individual intuition?", "answer": "Sharon Davies expressed her strong objection to the exclusions caused by tuition or safeguarding. She pointed out that the difficulty with home tuition was the limited access the local authority could get into the families. The quality of home tuition was difficult to assure, unless the families invited them there, which was a really rare situation. All in all, the role of local authorities was restricted in this aspect."}, {"id": 164, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the conclusion of the discussion about the intuition in a private setting.", "answer": "The intuition in a private setting was supposed to follow a restricted timetable, for no matter for what reason the students' need cannot be met at school, the PRU staff ought to provide them with some education. Besides, the education provided should be different from the education provided by agency staff, who merely offered a few hours' provision or the service offered by local libraries."}, {"id": 165, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What did the meeting discuss about issues on the special education and recruitment of professional staff?", "answer": "PRU was supposed to collaborate with schools to arrange special curriculums to meet the students' special needs. This not only had something to do with finance but was also related to the recruitment of professional staff. The training for special education ought to be included in the professional training system."}, {"id": 166, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "What was the major challenge of training professional staff for special education?", "answer": "Dawn Bowden pointed out that there were a very small number of staff members working in the provision area, and the capacity for them to access professional training was limited. Sharon Davies agreed and added that though the situation had been bettered by the Internet technology, there was still not much opportunity for the ones who desired to specialize in the area."}, {"id": 167, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Hefin David, and we've got no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest? Can I just, then, declare for the record that I chair the cross-party group on suicide prevention and that Samaritans Cymru, who are appearing before us later, provide the secretariat for that group, just for that to be on the record? Item 2, then, is an evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school, and I'm very pleased to welcome our panel of witnesses this morning: Sharon Davies, head of learning, Torfaen County Borough Council and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; Nick Williams, director of education, Swansea city and county council, and representing the Association of Directors of Education in Wales; and David Hopkins, interim head of education at the Welsh Local Government Association. Thank you very much, all of you, for attending. We've got a lot of ground we'd like to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.\u00a0And if I can just start by asking you what you believe the main reasons are for the increase in the number of exclusions from school."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll start, if that's okay. I think one of the things we're experiencing across the system in Wales is more examples of very challenging behaviour. I think the prevalence of ASD\u2014autism spectrum disorder\u2014and trying to get the learners the right provision is sometimes a challenge. Obviously, I can speak more about my own local authority in Swansea: the numbers have increased about fourfold over the last five, six years, so what's presenting as difficult behaviour can also sometimes be additional learning needs as well, and the system's struggling a little bit to catch up to have enough capacity to do that, so that is placing pressure on schools and then, in turn, pressure on the EOTAS, including our pupil referral units, because, obviously, we just probably haven't got enough capacity at the moment in the system."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Anybody got anything to add to that, or\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "No, I think that's what we're seeing in Torfaen as well. I'd second that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. So, to what extent, then, do local authorities have clear strategies for support and reintegration, and a continuum of provision to meet the needs of learners who are either at risk of exclusion, or disengagement?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, we've just developed a behaviour and well-being strategy, which, with our schools\u2014and I'm aware, because I work in the south-west and mid Wales region, and I know some of the other local authorities have something similar, and, similarly, I chair the EOTAS network across Wales, and I know many local authorities are going in that direction, so that has a tiered approach, or staged approach, or whichever, so that there's universal provision. I think it's something that\u2014you know, we need to make sure that our staff and our schools are well-equipped to meet these needs, but there will always, unfortunately, be some learners who need more specialist provision. So, it's equipping them with those sorts of skills, really. I think it's certainly moved forward from where we were two of three years ago. But there's a little bit of lag in the system, trying to bring everybody up to the same, consistent level. But I think work is afoot in nearly all local authorities, as far as I'm aware."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of school accountability measures, do you think that they have had an impact on the rise in exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "When we're looking at the accountabilities, there's a huge amount of pressures on schools to perform, and I think the whole culture that the schools are within does play an element of it to some\u2014. There is a shift in that culture. We are seeing a change with the interim measures coming on board, but I think there's going to be a lag in the system before we see that having a knock-on effect on our learners, because, undoubtedly, there are pressures on schools."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "So, you've seen an improvement since the capped 9 has been brought in?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's early to say,\u00a0but certainly we're working towards that improvement. I can only speak for Torfaen\u2014we've been working really hard on our exclusions and working with our schools to ensure that the curriculum is broad and balanced, and accounts for every learner within the system."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "May I answer this in Welsh?"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Of course, yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The messages that the Government is conveying to us and the messages we convey as directors and councils are important as well. So, we always tell them that it's the progression of the children in the future that's important, not just reaching up to the level. So, it's more complex than that, and it's important to share that. And in fairness to Estyn\u2014Estyn has changed its mind as well. So, messages such as those are being conveyed now, and I think that the schools do understand now the expectation and what's expected of them."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. In terms of parents, what are local authorities doing to actually engage parents of children and young people who are either EOTAS or at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I'll answer this in English. Again, I know perhaps Swansea\u00a0and Neath Port Talbot\u2014we have a team-around-the-family approach. So, as you say, it's more complicated than just the child behaving in a certain way, or being school-anxious, whatever the issue is. So, it's sort of bringing all of the agencies together to try and look at how we can proactively solve problems and support the families. Because nearly always, the behaviours that are demonstrated, or come out in schools, or whatever provision, is obviously probably greater in the home environment, so there's a whole\u2014. We understand the complexities and the need for a whole-family, almost, approach to support."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And do you think that all local authorities have got that understanding across Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I would say the majority have."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, it's quite common practice. As Nick mentioned, it is about that multi-agency approach\u2014it is working with social care, working with health colleagues, to look at the whole package that goes into these families and to our learners."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly with schools, I know across Wales we've done a lot of training on adverse childhood experiences and trauma-informed practice, so at least people can perhaps better understand some of the reasons why this behaviour is coming through, whereas in the past\u2014I'm thinking myself, now, as a teacher\u2014they were just difficult behaviours. I didn't really know the background to possibly why those behaviours were coming through. So, I think we are more informed as a profession."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on funding from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "May I begin, maybe, with a question, generally speaking\u2014? We're all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general. So, can this lead to more exclusions, because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges, and then that the side-effects of that creates more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In particular now with the new Act coming into force, that's going to place more pressure on the system. In Torfaen, we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding\u2014they are behind, and they have to make these hard choices. And sometimes, they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners, then, and that does place additional pressure on the schools."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected, worse than\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I'm not sure whether it's being worse affected, but certainly there's pressure, in particular with the new Act coming in, and that's going to place more pressure on the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "What is your experience, then?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The same, really. But just sometimes, the Government doesn't think about the staff in the pupil referral units, because we've gone back to the Government to tell them, 'Right, you've provided money to school staff, but what about staff that need training\u2014perhaps more than staff in the school sector?' And in fairness, they have addressed that, but perhaps it's not at the forefront of their minds when they're thinking of providing funding to the schools. So, it's a little bit of an afterthought. But this will be needed in the future, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And maybe I can ask the WLGA: are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools\u2014can that therefore affect the kind of provision that's happening from authority to authority?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Yes, sure. The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas, and we've got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money, or as much money as possible, is devolved to schools. So, I don't think that's a direct factor. I think the factors that really affect exclusions, which is where I think the question came from: you've got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment, which I think has put pressure on some schools, certainly, and headteachers have felt that\u2014sometimes excluded, or otherwise put into another school as a consequence, which is regrettable, but that's what's happened. And on the additional learning needs side, whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available, if we look at experiences that have happened in England, in particular, because there are direct parallels there with legislation, we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure\u2014there have been big issues around tribunals, to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals, because they were losing them time and time again. So, there are financial pressures there, but I don't think the levels of delegation have any impact on that."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Okay. But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It shouldn't, but it could. It's difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react. If they're under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures, they will react in a particular way. Culturally, we've got to get to the point, I think, particularly with the new curriculum coming in, where we say, 'Look, forget the narrow measures that you're being judged by. We're trying to agree with partners, including Estyn and the Welsh Government, a broader range of measures.' That, in a sense, may provide opportunities for schools, and local authorities, to look more constructively at this whole area. So, that's one area, but you're right, I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on, not just local authorities and schools, but also on the post-16 sector, because we're talking now about a wider age range\u2014doing up to 25 as well. So, we've got a host of issues, I think, there to consider and work our way through."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And is the fact that there's variation from term to term, from week to week sometimes, in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools\u2014is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge, and maybe that that leads to more exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As you say, because it changes, it's difficult then to plan ahead, and from year to year and also, as you've said, within the term. Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving, and then that causes the pressure within the system, then, because you haven't planned for them, and therefore there's no spare funding there to draw on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Also, in fairness to PRUs, we've been trying to work on the fact that, if children move out of school, the funding follows them. We don't want a lag in the system, because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils, but the money is still in the schools, because it's once a year that they have that funding."}, {"speaker": "Sian Hughes", "content": "Okay, thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. What more can be done, and by whom, to support collaborative working between schools,\u00a0PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector. We meet on a regular basis, and that's nationally. And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well. So, there's definitely a better sharing of practice. We put on some very, very good conferences as one form of professional learning. But it's also important\u2014. And we're talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider, or it's sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits, joint visits, to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools, and vice versa, particularly around the curriculum. And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides, providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well. But in the past, there might well have been some staff who perhaps hadn't had those school experiences and vice versa."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Can I just ask you about transition arrangements, because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education? It isn't a clear, sort of, going from one to the other\u2014sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they're not able to get back into the school setting, the main school setting. How are you addressing that?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Well, again, I can only speak for ourselves. We've had a big investment of time, and there will be money and through band B, we're building a brand-new PRU provision in Swansea, which will be open in January 2021. So, we've recognised that, so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools. There's an integration through a part-time timetable back into school, and we continue to support them during that process. But then, when they're back in school, that support doesn't stop\u2014that support continues, and then there's a managed reduction in that support. And that's proven very successful."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It sounds to me very\u2014. Yes, good\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I'll be honest with you, the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education, your key stage 4. It is far, far more difficult when they're 15, 16 to get them back into mainstream. So, then you're looking more at how you transit, then, into further education and colleges and so on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Thank you. In your view\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we move on, have you got anything to add, Sharon, in terms of\u2014? Because, obviously, we've had the Swansea perspective. I mean, how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "As Nick said, it does get more difficult at key stage 4, and it's working, then, with\u2014. It comes back to that team-around-the-family approach, to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school, what can the school provide. It's looking at the whole package of support, then, that surrounds not just the learner but the family, whether it's transport\u2014it's looking at the whole agenda, then, to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school, where it's possible."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think, Chair, at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting, but it's early days yet for looking at that. I mean, that's an ideal, obviously, but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully, and it brings\u2014. The principle is fine, but it does bring a host of other issues with it, if you see what I mean. But it's certainly a model worth looking at. It's been tried elsewhere, and we keep an eye on that, but we don't really know what the outcomes have been long term with that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "And which authority is that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I don't think I'm allowed to say at this point."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Oh, okay. And where is it being tried elsewhere? In England, is it?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Oxfordshire."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "A few years ago, I used to be a primary headteacher in England, so we were looking at different models, then, at various conferences, and I believe Oxford, as a local authority\u2014they had a PRU, and they had discussions with their secondary schools, then, whether to get rid of the PRU, as such, and give the money back into schools. But they looked at a partnership within the schools, then, to say, 'Okay, you can have the money, but there's got to be terms of reference'\u2014not quite a service level agreement, but the schools worked together as a partnership, then, so that they couldn't keep moving the children around, the learners around. It's looking at how well that worked. It started off really well, but that was a few years ago, so I don't know whether it's continued now. But that was a model that, at the time, that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools, then, to have that responsibility\u2014that they didn't offload the learners elsewhere."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Nick, you wanted to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, sorry. We do something similar in Swansea. We've operated this now for almost three years, where we devolve\u2014the word is 'devolve', as opposed to 'delegate'\u2014the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process, and they have to produce an action plan, which we monitor, about how they're using that funding. But, obviously, we recognise that\u2014and it's back to your original question, the first question\u2014we still have learners, unfortunately, despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools, because of the very, very challenging behaviour we're experiencing, who do need additional and bespoke support, which in fairness the school can't provide. So, it's a mixed economy, if you like, in Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Janet."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS\u00a0provision?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Capacity\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What? Sorry, I missed that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because\u2014. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision\u2014very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision\u2014what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is\u2014. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "The schools would have to make sure that\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "But is that happening, do you know?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP\u2014Torfaen curriculum panel\u2014which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past\u2014it's about keeping that momentum going."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Okay."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Well, I appreciate that, and that's the\u2014[Inaudible.]"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little\u2014. We are restricted in that respect."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What about if they're in a private setting?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Is that widespread around Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "We're very similar to that."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Absolutely, yes."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities.\u00a0Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think it's, you know\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "It was the WLGA paper, actually."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "It was a joint paper. You go on."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools\u2014that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent\u2014except, for certain learners, that might be the case\u2014so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like\u2014another term that's used\u2014of students when they get to GCSEs\u00a0so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners\u2014we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "You won't get any arguments from us on that. Si\u00e2n Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "In general terms\u2014. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And does that worry you?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Me?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "The WLGA."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, we are\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "In the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work\u2014because they're under your control\u2014the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh\u2014that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience\u2014. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Consistency is developing across Wales."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "With the curriculum?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you, Si\u00e2n. Questions now from Dawn Bowden."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Si\u00e2n was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting\u2014that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that\u2014. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition\u2014whatever form that took\u2014then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it\u2019s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "We've probably\u2014[Inaudible.]\u2014in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't\u2014 What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And\u2014. Sorry, go on."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Absolutely. It's more than just one person\u2014it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more\u2014. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways\u2014staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa\u2014because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for\u2014. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that."}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO\u00a0now\u2014don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is\u2014but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like\u2014. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision."}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect\u2014I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Si\u00e2n, you had a supplementary."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able\u2014? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need\u2014not just in this aspect\u2014but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "It's not just\u2014. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice\u2014that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "Yes, certainly."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent,\u00a0but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I don't know if that is the\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?"}, {"speaker": "Sharon Davies", "content": "I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I think the rural aspect\u2014are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "What provision in the north?"}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "I think there's a PRU\u00a0provision in the north of Powys and one in the south\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, north of Powys."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "North Powys."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Yes, I've got a\u2014. It's a big issue."}, {"speaker": "Nick Williams", "content": "For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't\u00a0we, so it's not such an issue."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?"}, {"speaker": "David Hopkins", "content": "I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. We've come to the end of our time. We have probably got a few areas that we'll write to you about, if that's okay. Can I thank you for your attendance this morning? We will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for attending. The committee will break until 10:20, but can Members not shoot off for a sec, please? Okay, can I welcome everybody back to our next evidence session, which is our sixth evidence session for our inquiry on education otherwise than at school? I'm very pleased to welcome Sarah Stone, executive director for Wales of Samaritans; Liz Williams, policy and communications officer at Samaritans; and Dr Ian Johnson, who is the manager of children and young people's mental health at Mind Cymru. Thank you all for attending. If it's okay, we'll go straight and questions. If I can just start by asking you what you think the main reasons are why we are seeing this increase in the numbers of children and young people being excluded from school."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I think you were going to\u2014."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's a very difficult subject, because, in many cases, we're not really sure what the data looks like. We get these things from quite a broad perspective, and we don't actually see the extent of the reasons why. If you look at, for example, the statistical release, then you get a sense of why people are being excluded, but they tend to be\u2014. It's a very reductionist discussion, so you see reasons like persistent disruptive behaviour, verbal abuse or physical assaults, but you don't actually get the underlying factors that are influencing that. Now, we know that that information exists, because, obviously, schools don't exclude anybody lightly, and I speak as someone who's been until this academic year a governor on secondary and primary schools. So, there's a great deal of paper trail, but that doesn't seem to really find its way up to a higher level."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. And how concerned are you about the trend that we're seeing of an increase in younger children being excluded, and what do you think the reasons might be for that?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's very concerning that we're seeing increases amongst younger children in particular. Those have gone up quite substantially in the past few years, and a lot of the evidence that we're hearing is quite anecdotal, so it tends to be around the behavioural issues or underlying issues, and there's a lot of discussion about the adverse childhood experiences agenda and how that's\u2014. So, there's a better understanding of that, but I'm not in a position at the moment, really, to be able to explain why primary schools maybe are actually taking that position and excluding more than they used to."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "What I would say is that the reason that Samaritans did our report on exclusions from school rested with\u2014. They began with anecdotal information coming through to us around individual distress and from projects working with young people who'd been excluded. And there are projects that are working with young people who are being excluded\u2014I mean primary school children. And the major thing we say in our report is that we\u2014. So, this is enough to ask us some serious questions, to which we don't know the answer, unless we actually do some serious work on this. So, I would reiterate what we say in our report: that we need to examine this. It's a really important issue, and the life trajectory of those young people is being impacted by their exclusion."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. You may not be able to answer this, but to what extent do you think school accountability measures are having an impact on the numbers of exclusions?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Well, I think it's very interesting, looking at Estyn's pupil registration practices report from October last year, which looks at off-rolling, and I think that you see, specifically at year 10 to 11, a strong impact: around 4 per cent of pupils are off-rolled between year 10 and 11, but you're also seeing a number between 1.5 and 2 per cent that are off-rolled in any given year between year 8/year 9, year 9/year 10. So, I think it's clear that there's been a substantial increase in the numbers off-rolled in that year 10 to 11, but what I think is concerning for me is the normalisation, throughout the system, at secondary school level, where there's off-rolling between year 7/8, year 8/9. Based around there being around 30,000 to 32,000 in each cohort, then you're looking at 500 to 600 children in any given year, and I think we need to understand why that is the norm, what could be done around that, as well as looking into the obvious impact of that at year 10 to 11. The Estyn work is quite factual. It's looking at the numbers. I think we need to dig a bit deeper and understand the story behind that and whether there's a specific reason why schools are doing that, related to the accountability measures. It'll be interesting to see the impact of changes towards capped 9 et cetera, but I think we need a bit more qualitative work on that rather than just the quantitative work that's currently available."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think there's also a problem with schools only being measured on academic outcomes rather than the journey travelled by the child and the efforts put in by the school to nurture the well-being of children who are particularly vulnerable. So, I suppose, if you consider that, this is something that definitely needs to be looked at further so that there's incentive for schools to keep children who are perhaps demonstrating challenging behaviour or perhaps aren't attaining brilliant grades. So, I think that's something that needs to be looked at further."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And, just finally, if that's okay, just to cross-refer the committee to the loneliness and isolation strategy, to which we made extensive representations on this issue. A part of the strategy talks about using our approach to accountability to recognise inclusive schools and reduce incentives to remove pupils from schools. So, that is a commitment in that strategy. It's a really important commitment to make a reality of that, because, actually, what is happening, I think, is that there are incentives that are perverse around this issue."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Could I just come in on that? I think there's an interesting, again, qualitative, quantitative, element to what happens to those children who move into PRU,\u00a0EOTAS provision in their earlier years in school and those as they reach a later point in their school career. So, I think there's a question, then, about\u2014I was talking earlier about those children who move in in years 7/8, 8/9, et cetera, and how they loop back into the mainstream education system, what happens to them, but then what happens to those who may be reaching the end of their formal education career and move into EOTAS, PRU provision, and what happens to those young people afterwards? I'm sure we'll pick up some of that as we go through."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders around the support for learners who are at risk of becoming EOTAS."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Good morning. To what extent is adequate support provided to pupils who are at risk of becoming EOTAS?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Okay. So, this was a major focus around the piece of work that we did, and we came up with a range of suggestions. I think the quick answer is that what we've seen is a strong indication that it isn't, and that it's\u2014. But also that it's not simply a question of the young person, that it's a question of the whole school environment and how that interacts with the challenges that a young person might be facing. So, there are a couple of big things to say on this one. One is that we want to promote a compassionate response and an informed response by everybody in the school to distressed young people\u2014and that distress may show in a number of ways, not necessarily just as obvious distress. So, I think it's understanding that, having a confident response and, obviously, this links with expressing suicidal thoughts and distress as well, which may not come out in exactly that way\u2014but being able to respond where young people are expressing suicidal thoughts. And I think if we connect this with the agenda around adverse childhood experiences, and if you see the young person\u2014. I think what we as Samaritans really wanted to do was to focus on the distressed individual\u2014that's what we do, it's what we're majorly about. So, a young person who is experiencing a whole range of adversity in their own life may be presenting at school in a very challenging way, perhaps. That school may also be their only safe place, and I think that's just a really simple thing just to keep remembering. Hearing headteachers and teachers talk about this, a lot of them are very aware of that, and there are some great examples of schools working to reduce exclusions and understanding the fork in the road that exclusion or not exclusion represents in the life of that young person. There are restorative justice-type approaches being used by schools in Cardiff that seem extraordinarily inspiring. I've heard\u2014. There's been so much interest in this piece of work that we've done, and I've spoken to many educators since, and so it's doing what we needed to do, which is to get people talking about it. Because I think it's not about providing a simplistic answer to this question of support, it is understanding that it's a whole-school question. It's building on the excellent work that is being done by schools in different parts of Wales, joining that up and making that much more general. So, I think that's the opportunity: is to really recognise that this is a big issue, and that, if you don't hold young people within an educational setting, the lifetime consequences for them, including their elevated risk of suicide\u2014it's very hard to reverse that. So, I think we want to focus on a distressed young person and how we respond to that, and it's amazing to move someone on from where they started, and loads of teachers will tell you examples of how they've done that and how they've felt that's not sufficiently recognised by the measures that they're subjected to."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think it's an issue where it's very important both to focus on the individual, but also on the macro situation, and, as Sarah mentioned, I think the whole-school approach, which is something that's been discussed within this committee, as part of the 'Mind over matter' work, is something that is hugely important. And that's why that should be\u2014there should be statutory provision regarding a whole-school approach. Because understanding\u2014. That prevention operating all the way through the whole-school community will, hopefully, be very effective in providing support levels, ensuring that that support is in place from the very beginning, all the way through primary school, all the way through secondary school, to ensure that learners are being supported and that that is something that's at the forefront of people's considerations whenever they're considering what a pupil is doing, and why they might be doing it. And that then also links back into consideration around adverse childhood experiences. But, generally, just that thinking about the behaviour and the emotional response first, I think, is hugely important in this context."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Okay. And what do you think could be done more, and by whom, to help schools to support pupils to remain in mainstream education?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "So, this is where we set out nine recommendations in our report and I think the major message is, as I said before, that we don't have a simple answer to this one. However, there are a number of things that we need to do: we need to recognise the impact of adverse childhood experiences; we need to train teachers so that they have an understanding response and are much more confident in that; we need to learn from what works; we need to listen to the voices of young people themselves. That's terribly important, because\u2014. I know this committee is very well aware of that, because you've done very good work listening to the direct voices of young people, but they are very often able to articulate quite a lot about what is needed. I would also add to that that we would want young people themselves to be skilled up in understanding and recognising their own emotions, because this is about putting in place that awareness, that consciousness, if you like, about being able to name and recognise feelings. There's great international evidence on the importance of that and the benefit of it, which was carried out when the new curriculum was being developed, and the health aspect of that. So, we've kind of done that work in Wales. What we would like to see is that new curriculum around health and well-being and mental health and awareness being in the curriculum, so that young people, on a statutory basis\u2014. Otherwise, you're entrenching the differences and the inequalities between teaching across Wales, because the good will do it, and perhaps others will find it much harder. So, that's a major message as well. So, I think there's a menu, if you like, and some of it is very much about respecting the experience of teachers and of schools and working with them, because this is about working with their will to do things well."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think what's important, and maybe it's implicit within the question about helping to support pupils remain in mainstream schools, is working out what is the best support at this point in time for the young person. So, that has to be taken deeply into consideration. Obviously, the schools provide whatever support they can, but what is the best for the young person at this time? And that answer will differ from individual to individual. I think it is important to have the learner voice playing a role within this, and it's important to get more of a child-centred voice around this. One of the projects that Mind will be working on in Wales in the next year is regarding an inclusive education inquiry, where we'll be forefronting the voices of young people within the evidence, because at the moment a lot of the evidence that we have is data-driven or anecdotal, and I think we want to get to the bottom of how young people feel, and how they find this. Sarah's referred to the curriculum. I think there's a lot to be done, still, with regard to PRU and EOTAS with the new curriculum, and, hopefully, we'll be able to outline some of that in terms of questions later on."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And what are your views on the balance between funding being used for diagnosis and support, because I know that the Samaritans report suggested that funding tends to go into diagnosis rather than support? How can the balance be addressed?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I think it's a really difficult balance, but it was something that was brought up in the research stages of our report. So, we held a round table during the research period, and participants said that they were particularly concerned about the lack of awareness and knowledge of children who had additional learning needs. And, obviously, this is quite serious because these children are at risk of being excluded and are over-represented in excluded groups. And they were particularly concerned about children who were sort of on the cusp, or not properly diagnosed, and a lot of these children would have things like attention deficit disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and, again, these made up the cohort of pupils who were excluded. So, when you consider that, you tend to think, actually, diagnosis could be really useful, so that staff are aware of the pupil's needs, and maybe aware of why the child might be demonstrating challenging behaviour. However, what participants did say was that unless there was a proper understanding of the child's condition or additional learning needs, and that the proper support was there, then diagnosis alone wasn't of value. So, I think one of the participants said that up to 50 per cent of learners in a classroom could have an additional learning need, so, again, if the support isn't there, that child isn't going to benefit from diagnosis. And what was really highlighted is the importance of the school being inclusive, and for that child, regardless of whether they had an additional learning need or not, to have proper opportunity to progress."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you. And, then, to what extent are schools aware of the impact of early trauma ACEs, and how are schools adapting their practices to take account of them?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really capable of saying that on an individual level. We're aware, as you've heard from previous evidence from heads of education, et cetera, directors of education, that work is going on on an all-Wales basis, and there's obviously an awful lot of work that's going on on the ACEs agenda. I referred to being a previous school governor, and that's somewhere that's become a trauma-informed school, and they have established that and are widening that base. I think that what the school does though is something that has to loop back, as I said, with the curriculum changes as we're going forward. There's a concern that I have at the moment regarding the progress on EOTAS and PRU within the new curriculum, and there's work that I think will still need to be done, and something that I'm sure will be considered by this committee when it deals with the curriculum assessment Bill when it comes forward later on in the year, because there were comments made by the education Minister, I think, in response to Suzy Davies, in the statement in January, that we're talking about disallowing areas of the curriculum on the basis of the individual learner, to which I have no concern in itself. However, the emotional and mental health well-being needs of this particularly vulnerable group of people needs to be centre stage. So, the role of the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and the role of mental health and emotional well-being within the curriculum, is hugely important."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "And I think, just to add to that around the impact of early trauma, I think one of the things that we at Samaritans are particularly aware of is the impact of loneliness and isolation on individuals and how that can help to drive distress and suicidal ideation. That sense of belongingness is recognised by the research as being critical to functioning well as a human being. We are social beings. And one of the ways in which early trauma and adversity, if that leads to exclusion from a range of groups, is to lead to lifelong isolation. It's something that comes out when you look at middle-aged men. You look at a trajectory that goes back towards their early years, very often, and Samaritans is about to release some research on that very point. So, there's a connection between what happens in later life and what happens here. There's also, if we look at the numbers of exclusions around boys, and we're looking at much higher suicide rates and numbers of other issues around men\u2014. Again, I think it's important to see this whole picture\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "It's very bad in north Wales. Our figures are very worrying."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Yes, exactly. So, there's a bigger picture here. I would say that we want to do something to mitigate the impact of adverse childhood experiences, and we have this great opportunity to release the potential of those young people whose, often, strength and resilience is quite extraordinary in circumstances that many of us would find hard to imagine. So, we need to look at the assets that young people have as well, which you can work with. So, I think if there's a real opportunity to create a change, this is one of them. This issue about exclusions and PRUs\u2014this is a chance to make that ambition real."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you so much. Very good."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Just to reiterate what Sarah said, looking at our research, which, obviously, isn't yet published but will be soon, it really is quite shocking how these men fell through the net so many times when they were young, and, actually, how many missed opportunities there were to intervene in the cycles of inequality. It is quite clear from that research that these stages where children are demonstrating challenging behaviour are the first signs of distress. So actually, this is where we should be intervening. So, I think like Sarah said, it is really important to see this as a preventative agenda."}, {"speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM", "content": "Thank you."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. Dawn."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Thank you, Chair. A few questions around providing support for learners. You've set out very clearly what you think needs to happen in your report, your nine points and so on, but what's your view on the support currently provided, both in a school setting and EOTAS settings for mental health support? Have you been able to get that sort of information? Have you got a sense of\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I don't think we're really in a position to answer fully as to what's going on. I think that part of the problem is there's not really a national picture that we can pick up in terms of data or information regarding this, and I think that's really why there's been such a push towards seeing this in the curriculum."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Sure. So much of your evidence is anecdotal, is it? It's people that have been referred to you, come to you for help, and you just\u2014or your own research. What\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The research that we're going to do is really where we're at, and that's because we feel that there is a gap there regarding how young people are experiencing this within the school environment and in general. I think, in particular, we're aware of increases\u2014quite substantial increases in some cases\u2014regarding self-harm, and concern that manifests itself slightly differently between girls and boys. Specifically, I think there's now an increasing focus on self-harm behaviour amongst girls in the 15 to 19 age range, but we're not entirely sure of how good the support is at schools. My experience of projects that I've been involved in\u2014I was previously in front of this committee as part of the Time to Change Wales project\u2014was that, overall, it depends quite strongly on the senior management team and their commitment. Where the SMT has taken a lead, then it feels that schools are really doing something. Where the SMT are, perhaps, a bit more laissez-faire regarding this, then it feels that maybe schools are not making such a step forward. And to come back to the point, that's why we feel that whole-school approach guidance needs to be statutory, because we'll otherwise reach some quite uneven outcomes, because those who are doing it well will really push ahead and those that are not so engaged will not be helping their pupils in the way that they should be."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I guess the EOTAS or PRU provision is going to be much more challenging then, isn't it, then main school provision. I suppose that was what I was trying to get at as well, whether you get a sense that there may be some progress being made in mainstream schools, is that following through in PRUs and EOTAS provision?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'll just be honest: right now, I couldn't give you an answer on that. I think that is something that, perhaps, slightly concerns me about the whole field is not being able to get a national feel for these issues. I would suspect that there are pockets of very good practice. I've heard discussions about things being done regionally and nationally, but I think it would be good to be able to see what that best practice looks like and how well it's done."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "I appreciate you're not educationalists and you wouldn't necessarily have all of that information, but have you got any sense of\u2014again, whether this is anecdotal or from cases that are referred to you\u2014evidence of schools off-rolling pupils with mental health problems? If you've got any evidence of that, what might the impact of that be on the individuals?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, I think that certainly does happen. I suppose we know this anecdotally from Samaritans research, but also I have experience of working in pupil referral units and working with some really vulnerable children, and I think there is a sense sometimes that these children are labelled as naughty and disruptive. So, children who have additional learning needs or a communication problem that potentially is undiagnosed or not really properly understood. I think when children have mental health problems and additional learning needs, often they can find the school environment really difficult. I've worked with children who have told me that they just don't enjoy being in the classroom because they feel incredibly anxious. They don't feel they can contribute to the school environment, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their classmates and, as a result, they demonstrate challenging behaviour so that they can leave the classroom. I think that's very sad. As a result, these children aren't always understood and are off-rolled in some cases. But, like Sarah said earlier, there are certainly examples of really good practice, and I suppose this links in to what approaches schools, pupil referral units and EOTAS should take to vulnerable children with mental health problems. One example I can give you is that, at one pupil referral unit, the children would get really distressed and really disruptive towards the end of the day on a Friday. I suppose that, in some schools, the teachers would have thought, 'This is ridiculous, they're disrupting the lessons', but what the teachers knew is that these children would go home, they would face such adversity, wouldn't always get a meal, would be exposed to things they shouldn't be exposed to, and the teachers were able to respond to that with compassion and empathy. But, obviously, seeing behind behaviour is really, really difficult, and I don't think teachers should have to do this alone, they should be properly trained and properly equipped. Even going up to a child\u2014and I suppose this goes back to mental health support. Ideally, as Samaritans, we would want suicide prevention plans to be embedded in schools and to be part of the culture of schools, but obviously this can't happen if teachers aren't properly equipped and don't have the confidence to go up to a student and ask them if they're struggling. In our compassion in education toolkit, we highlight the importance of asking a child, 'Are you self-harming?', if there are signs; 'Have you tried to take your own life?', if there are signs. But obviously that's a very difficult conversation to have. So, yes, there are certainly examples of best practice, but I do believe that, if school staff aren't properly equipped and trained, off-rolling pupils, especially at key stage 4, where obviously you will hold those grades, is definitely something that they don't necessarily have the incentive to prevent. So it's worth looking at that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "You touched, in the beginning of that response, on children being labelled as naughty. To what extent have you come across that? Is that quite prevalent? Is that quite common?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes. I think it's really down to the school. I think it's down to experience and it's down to the teacher. I think it links up with the question we were asked before about diagnosis and support. Lots of children with communication difficulties especially, if they haven't been formally diagnosed, they are certainly the ones that are deemed naughty, because I suppose people think, 'Well, you should be doing well, you're bright. You should be thriving in school.' But that's not always the case. Children can be incredibly anxious, have mental health problems, obviously, are exposed to ACEs and things that go on at home that not necessarily every teacher would know about. So, I think there are definitely children who are labelled 'naughty', and I think children also play up to that as well. Like I said, if children are very anxious in the school environment and in the classroom, if they know they can get out of the classroom and get into a safe space, they will do that."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "And then that labelling of a 'naughty' child is actually the impediment to getting that child the support that they need."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Absolutely, yes, and I think that's where formal diagnosis can be helpful. I think the doors are open then to much more school support. So, yes, I think it is down to how the school approach it, and it goes back to the whole-school approach and having emotional and mental health on a statutory basis in the curriculum. It embeds emotional well-being into the culture of the school, and it means that students might know when they need help, how to be more resilient and helping themselves, and when and how to ask for help from the teachers. So, I think it's really important."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "If I can just pick up on one of those points, Mind Cymru conducted a series of focus groups around Wales to inform our response to the new curriculum. One of the comments that I think struck home most strongly with me was a young boy saying that, because the same teacher was responsible for pastoral and behaviour, because he had been labelled as naughty or a troublemaker, he felt uncomfortable in terms of going to that same person within the school in order to disclose the problems he was having, because there was a fear of not being believed or accepted, or it being considered as an excuse for poor behaviour, rather than them being taken seriously. I wouldn't want to over-egg that point, but I think it is an important consideration from a learners' perspective. 'If I disclose a problem, if I want to talk to somebody, are there appropriate considerations within the school setting where I can turn to somebody who maybe I might not have the greatest relationship with in other contexts?' I'd also just like to come back to the off-rolling question if I may, just quite briefly. As I said at the outset of the evidence here, Estyn conducted a piece of work on pupil registration practices that showed a substantially higher amount of off-rolling between year 10 and 11, but also a consistent level\u20141.5 per cent to 2 per cent\u2014in other secondary school years. But we don't have the qualitative material to understand how much of that is related to mental health factors, and how much\u2014because we're in discussion about school accountability\u2014might drive some of that at year 10/11. But we don't know why that baseline of 500/600 young people every year is there within our schools. I think that needs further investigation."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. Thanks for that. Can I just ask you a couple of other questions about the impact of particular circumstances, and whether you've come across any issues relating to Welsh-medium provision to support the mental health and well-being of learners as an issue\u2014that it's not been available, Welsh-medium support, for those learners? Have you come across that at all?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "We haven't necessarily come across it, but we haven't been looking for it either. The Estyn report notes that there are generally fewer off-rollings from Welsh-medium education to EOTAS. There are a number of potential reasons for that. That can include the complete lack of EOTAS provision within a local area. It could be the socio-economic profile, because exclusions, et cetera, are substantially higher amongst those who are eligible for free school meals, and in many parts of Wales the socio-economic profile of a Welsh-medium education school is slightly different. We are not aware of any particular work that's been done to examine the needs and the provision of Welsh-medium EOTAS. Therefore, my suspicion, without any particular evidence, would be that it happens on a local authority basis, possibly on an incidental basis, depending on the quality and the ability of staff, and possibly more prevalent therefore in west and north-west Wales."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Okay. We can come back to that again, I'm sure. Do you know whether there's any impact on learners where there are actually delays in accessing EOTAS, again in terms of mental health conditions, if there's a delay in getting them to the appropriate provision? Have you got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of the impact on that?"}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Not specifically researched on that situation. I think, again, there is so much that we don't actually know and that we should know a lot more about, but I think there are some things that we can say about delays for young people who are not either in education or in anything else, and they're connected with the issues anyway. So, if you understand that there's a strong link between inequality and exclusion, and that the most likely young people to be excluded have other disadvantages as well, that's a really important issue to understand. So, being out of school or out of education for any time is going to exacerbate those pre-existing inequalities, and I can't emphasis that enough. This is exacerbating this cycle of inequality and disadvantage. So, being outside your peer group makes you vulnerable. It makes you vulnerable, and I guess the longer that continues I would expect the worse that impact and that uncertainty would be. So, there's the impact on loneliness and young people seeking an alternative community to the school one. Since the publication of our report, we have had an extraordinary level of interest from people concerned about crime. So, we've talked to the youth justice board, we've met with the police, there's a huge level of concern about county lines and about home-growing drug gangs, and the fodder that those young people are for people who will engage them in all sorts of activities, which are hugely damaging both to themselves and also to the wider society. So, I think we need to understand there's a lot at stake here for wider society in holding young people, and not allowing gaps to grow where they are not held. I would just refer you to the child death review on suicide and suspected suicide by young people, which came out very recently from Public Health Wales and Swansea University, and that looked at 33 young people who died by suicide over the past few years. One thing that came through that and was reflected in one of their suggestions for action was that those young people had not been held in education or training or employment, had slipped through all sorts of systems, and were extremely vulnerable. So, I think that's a really big message: that we need to try to hold people and not allow those gaps\u2014where they're not held within their society\u2014to lengthen and become really, really difficult. So, I think that's my major message on that particular one."}, {"speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM", "content": "Can I just ask, as a follow on from that, whether you've got any views on the potential impact of individual tuition on learners' well-being? So, home tuition, for instance: are pupils going to be on their own doing that? That might be in their best interest, or do you have any concerns that it might not be?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "I suppose we don't have actual evidence to show the impact home schooling has on pupils, but what we do know and something that is of huge concern, I suppose, to most people is that there's no central data on how many young people are home schooled. So, it's quite likely that these children are hidden or invisible and could be at a huge risk of the adverse problems that are related to exclusion more generally. Also, it is a concern, if children aren't registered with any school, how they get back into school, how they reintroduce back into the schooling environment, if that's what people think is best for them. So, I think that is a concern: not having that transparency of data. And just to reiterate Sarah's point, I suppose, home schooling could tackle the more academic side of things, so it would mean that that child is still receiving an education, but it might not necessarily help with the adverse effects of exclusion, like loneliness and isolation. That child still isn't with its own peer group. That is something that came out of the men's research, as Sarah mentioned. These men, who are now middle aged and are at the highest risk of dying by suicide, weren't always interacting with children their own age, and that did cause problems in later life. So, I think it's definitely something we don't know enough about, but I think we need to know more about."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "There are two questions within there, regarding the delay in entering provision and the effect of long term individual teaching. I think there are occasions on which individual tuition will be beneficial, because there may be a reason why somebody is uncomfortable and unable to operate within an educational setting. However, it may be that, on a longer term basis, that is not entirely appropriate. But it's very much an individual matter. What concerns me, I think, is the idea of there being a gap between mainstream education and entering any form of EOTAS provision due to capacity or otherwise, because that is a period in time\u2014. We don't know whether there's the causation of or exacerbation of mental health issues amongst those in EOTAS, but it's clear that\u2014well, it seems intuitive that a gap between being in mainstream education and EOTAS is unhelpful, not least their rights to an education, but also the feelings that young people who are probably in quite a confused and troubled state may have during that gap and how long that gap can endure. I will refer back: there was a recommendation by Estyn in their 2016 report on EOTAS regarding CAMHS support for children within those settings, I don't know whether there's been any particular progress within that\u2014and especially the mixture of issues that may be related to both mental health and also neurodevelopmental issues and whether those are more or less likely amongst this vulnerable part of the population."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Just to draw your attention to it, I think there's an acknowledgment that there's a lot we don't know about this. Again, in the loneliness and isolation strategy, there's a commitment to analyse existing education and health data to explore correlations between exclusions or being educated other than at school and mental well-being, including loneliness and isolation. So, I think that's a very welcome commitment to try to expand our understanding in this area, because there may be some pluses as well as minuses, but actually there is so much that we don't know about this."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Si\u00e2n Gwenllian. I think some of them have been covered, but\u2014"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Just in general, once a young person or a child has been excluded, is there enough support for them, not just on the educational side, but in general? Are we supporting these young people, these most vulnerable young people, once they're in the position of having been excluded?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I'd say that that's something that's possibly happening locally, but we don't have a national picture. One of the things we have already noted is the time between being excluded and entering some kind of EOTAS provision. So, that in itself\u2014and I've heard people talking about the capacity issues\u2014shows what's happening to these children, at a time when they are most vulnerable because they are outside of the system."}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "And who should be supporting them? Are we being clear enough with regard to who should be giving them the support? They've been excluded, so obviously the education system has a responsibility, but are we clear enough in terms of who else's responsibility this is, and who should be co-ordinating that support?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "The truth is, the responsibility lies on the local education authority in that context, I would say. The point is that, often, these children deal with several other institutions. So, it's incredibly important that any service is interweaved into that setting around the child or the children who are in this situation. More information is needed about this. When I was talking earlier about inclusive education, or some kind of investigation into this, that's the kind of thing I'd look at: how to bridge that gap and what kind of support will be available. I'm concerned, of course, in terms of education, whether there is enough funding available to ensure this. But because this is a very vulnerable group, we need to take responsibility in exactly the same way, perhaps, as corporate parenting plays a role there. We need to look at that kind of system, and how we help these individuals. I know there are figures available on local authorities, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, but maybe that's something to look at."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "And as Ian just said, although there's a lot of responsibility by the school and the local authority, I suppose some responsibility also sits with the parent as well. But for the parents to support their child, either if they're at risk of being excluded or if the child is already in EOTAS, and that parent wants to make sure that the child is having the best education possible, the parent has to have the right amount of information. They must know where to go for support themselves, and I think that a parent can't necessarily know the rights of their child to education and what their child is supposed to be having if they're not provided with all of the information. And I'm sure this is dependent on the school or dependent on the local authority, but that's something worth thinking about as well."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Any other questions?"}, {"speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM", "content": "Well, unless you want to sum up\u2014?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Just a comment, really, on the new curriculum and ensuring that EOTAS provision includes this, and how the whole-school approach will work within EOTAS, and how we ensure that the provision is available through the medium of Welsh, as we were referring to earlier, on a national level. Is it possible that it can be worked out within the local consortia, for example? How do we ensure that the teachers\u2014? If it's initial teacher training, or if they're newly qualified teachers, or if they're more experienced, how will this be implemented through the system? Because I think that children in EOTAS situations are usually more vulnerable than others, and therefore there is a need to prioritise their well-being and their mental health. We talk a lot about certificates and so forth, and qualifications, but ensuring everybody's well-being is important, and an important outcome of the work. So, we're thinking of this whole-school approach and how it works within the new curriculum, and this is a vital point for the years to come."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Just before we finish, then, is there anything you wanted to add in terms of what the committee could recommend about professional development for staff that would enhance this provision in this area?"}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Yes, absolutely. I think it's so important for teachers to be equipped with the training and to understand the link between inequality and all the things that come under that term, and challenging behaviour, and I think if teachers are aware of that, and trained properly to deal with that, the risk of exclusion will ultimately lessen. And I think with regard to how that can happen, I think, in some cases, mental health training and mental health awareness training is supplementary at times, with just teacher's training, but I think it should be embedded in the initial teacher's training, so that, more than anything, as well as being equipped with the skills, teachers have the confidence to deal with those really challenging situations."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay, thank you. Ian?"}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "I think that's the importance of a whole-school approach, and that being statutory, because that will ensure that everybody within the school community has that knowledge and awareness and knows what to do and where to signpost people. It means foregrounding and having that in the heart of the school ethos, and I think that turning the school into somewhere that considers mental health and emotional well-being first, rather than waiting for a problem\u2014I think that's the key to improving the well-being of our future generations."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "I just think it would be great if the community would recognise the link between inequality, adverse childhood experiences, and the opportunity that there is in avoiding a young person falling out of school, and out of anything, and out of sight. So, I think, the other side of this is that this is a real moment of opportunity to intervene positively."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for your evidence. It's been a really valuable and worthwhile session. As usual, we will send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Liz Williams", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Sarah Stone", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Dr Ian Johnson", "content": "Diolch yn fawr."}, {"speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM", "content": "Item 4, then, is papers to note. Just one paper today, which is the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report on the scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget 2020-1. Are Members happy to note that? Thank you. Item 5, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay, thank you."}], "query": "Summarize the conclusion of the discussion about the transport for EOTAS learners in rural areas.", "answer": "There were more issues related to transport for EOTAS learners in the rural areas of Wales. The distance that the learners had to cover was huge, for they had to get a provision in Powys. However, WLGA (Welsh Local Government Association) admitted that this issue had not been investigated yet would be in investigation very soon."}, {"id": 168, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This is the second meeting of the design group. Project Manager introduced new project requirements at first. The management required a remote control only for television and aimed at customers under 40. In terms of user interface design, User Interface focused on user-friendliness but still thought multi-function should be considered. Industrial Designer agreed and proposed to substitute voice recognition for the ten digits. He also suggested that they should use infrared so that the remote control could be connected with most TV sets. After that, in order to solve the problem of energy source, the team decided to include a cradle so that the remote control could be recharged."}, {"id": 169, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about user interface design of remote control.", "answer": "User Interface introduced a remote control easy to use and a multi-functional one and preferred the former as it was more user-friendly. Industrial Designer agreed and proposed that a stick or round button for volume control and channel selection could be used and also suggested that the ten digits could be substituted by voice recognition."}, {"id": 170, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer think about the ten digits when discussing interface design of remote control?", "answer": "Industrial Designer thought the ten buttons looked a bit dull so speech recognition could be added to solve this problem. But he was concerned that power saving could be difficult when implementing speech recognition."}, {"id": 171, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What did User Interface think about user interface design of remote control?", "answer": "User Interface found two kinds of remote controls: the multi-functional one and the one easy to use. He emphasized on user-friendliness, but considering that the target people were less than forty years old, multi-function should also be taken into account."}, {"id": 172, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about technical issues of the project?", "answer": "Industrial Designer introduced how the remote control worked and supposed that they should use infrared so that the remote control could communicate with most TV sets. He also proposed to use energy-friendly components and save the cost of circuit boards to develop elaborate lighting techniques. In order to prevent people from losing the remote control, the team decided to implement an audio signal. In terms of energy source, the team preferred to have a cradle so that the remote control could be recharged."}, {"id": 173, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What did the team come up with to prevent customers from losing their remote controls in the discussion of technical issues of the project?", "answer": "User Interface proposed that a base station next to the TV could be a solution, but Industrial Designer pointed out that this could be technically complicated and would cost a lot. So the team eventually adopted Marketing's advice to implement an audio signal."}, {"id": 174, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh let me see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's one of mine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Roo , welcome back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hello , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The waiting is for Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There he is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is there any time for a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have a slight problem . {vocalsound} I opened uh the C_D_ ROM box uh guys ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Can I get a cup of coffee ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh no . You can't ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So just cancel it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} Well , during my work I have no time either ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "this is life . {vocalsound} Sorry uh , Roo ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I opened the C_D_ ROM box . {vocalsound} Accidentally ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . People , welcome back with the second meeting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um for now on the schedule are a few points . Uh first of all the opening , which we are doing now . Um second , I received um some new project requirements . I'm not sure if you received them as well , um but I will tell you about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then um the three of you uh prepared a presentation , I think ? Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Roo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Almost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Almost , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Then we'll do your one uh uh as la uh the last . Um the top goal of this m"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't upload your presentation from here , I believe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um we will figure that out . Ca {vocalsound} can you try to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if it if it if it's wireless I could just uh put it in the {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , w we will see ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think it's wireless here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} it is , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it is . Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the top goal of this meeting is to reach a decision on the product , on the target group um and and the functions of the remote control , so keep that in mind . Um {vocalsound} we have forty minutes . So it's now {disfmarker} Yep . Okay . Um the new project requirements , first of all , um we didn't speak about it , but we should not um support teletext in the remote , um because our b um board uh feels that uh teletext is out of date and internet is replacing teletext . So um we are not even going to try to um implement it in our product . {vocalsound} It's a board decision . Um the remote control should only be used for television , because it's not uh f uh feasible , it's not uh w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "uh uh {disfmarker} we we cannot make it because of the time to market um that we have to deal with ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Time , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh the third requirement is that we should focus on customers that are younger than uh forty , {vocalsound} which is important for you , uh Ruud , and as well for uh Roo . Because the product should um be uh interesting and and uh should be bought by people younger than forty . Um {vocalsound} then for Roo , as well uh important , the corporate image should be recognisable in our product . So the colour colours and the slogan um do have to be uh in the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that clear ? Any questions on these requirements ? No ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the individual presentations , I th um Roo or Sebastian , who of you would like to start ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll start ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "great ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Oh , how can I uh {disfmarker} Geez , and sli and show . Um {disfmarker} Just uh press it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes . Alright . Um well w we uh we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous uh discussion . {vocalsound} Uh the method of the remote control is just {disfmarker} the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set . So that was the main uh important thing what a remote control should do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Then I found uh two different kind of remote controls , the multi-function uh remote control with many possibilities , but um the lack of the feeling I already mentioned uh in the previous uh discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the ease-of-use remote control with uh the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but um {disfmarker} yeah . My personal preferences were ease of uh {disfmarker} the easy to use remote control , because uh the user-friendliness and uh {disfmarker} it can be more trendy in in user design . But um your new goal f was for uh people than {disfmarker} less than forty years old ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So maybe um the multi-function can be implemented in uh in our design . But it should b I think it should be a combination , but teletext buttons are not uh in our design . So it should uh take out , well , eight buttons or so . But my {disfmarker} in {gap} my opinion , the the easy to use R_C_ is uh the best uh possi possibility for us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Uh Ruud , did you get that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , uh b uh most ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the important thing here is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And it's also i indeed uh uh Ruud's uh insight in the in the topic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , user-friendly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the market , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , what what does the market want ? I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , w we will s we all uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just for uh for user desi uh user uh friendliness I uh should choose for the the ease of use remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay . Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Excuse me . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Scusi . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay , it's still the right thing . Okay . Um well , there are some changes in the design requirements , so there are some changes in the method also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um basically all this device has to do is send messages to a T_V_ set . And the m most easy way to do this is by uh sending pulses of infrared light to a T_V_ set . Well , I th I tried to uh implement a picture here ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Energies and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it's hardly readable . Can you see it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's not visible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ? Well {disfmarker} Um , there's a energy source here . {vocalsound} And um basically there {disfmarker} it's connected to three things . The user interface connected to a chip , which is connected to the sender , which generates messages using uh infrared light , which are sent to the receiver . That's basically the idea . And there's a little picture , just for your imagination , how a device like this should look or can look . {vocalsound} Okay . Um what have I found . Usually these kind of things consist of a battery , infrared diode , buttons , chips , and circuit board . That's all . It's cased together , nothing more than that . {vocalsound} It's almost every piece of equipment um every piece of uh every T_V_ set is controlled infrared ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some exceptions , but most of all have uh infrared controls . And uh the more luxury uh remote controls have lithium buttons . And I think that's what we w"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The glow in the dark uh concept uh we discussed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yes . In the {disfmarker} and it's a little more {disfmarker} a little bit more fancy also . So maybe we should consider that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . I have a basic scheme of the things uh which are implemented . Um basically this is all there is . There's just one chip . There are a few buttons connected . Uh the buttons are lit . And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode , and there is not a power source here . {vocalsound} So that's basically the total design of this piece of equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's fairly easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's nothing more to it . It's fairly easy . It's been done many times before ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Succeed in it also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I think we should uh we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "personally I think we should infra use infrared , because uh otherwise our device cannot uh communicate with uh almost every T_V_ set . So I think that uh should be clear ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another important point is uh we really should use uh energy uh sparse , friendly components . Uh there are specially uh designed um energy-friendly components which consume uh far less power than uh conventional components . And um if we want to use uh a rechargeable design or uh a energy-save design , we should really implement them . {vocalsound} Um for cost-effectiveness , we should really use a very low-cost uh circuit board , um because most of the production cost are are in this uh part of the equipment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um the money we save on using this we can use uh for elaborate fancy lighting uh techniques , blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} And what's the um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think our uh users will really uh will really like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we use the LEDs , i does it use much more energy or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , they're p f uh power friendly LEDs also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can use them . So that's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the same costs , it's can be uh in our {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh no , they're uh they're a little bit more expensive , but by uh um um making {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Combined with the low-cost circuit board so it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can we can make its I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you could only lit uh the buttons {disfmarker} the buttons that are used most . So , the channel switching ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but but the question is whether um two or four buttons makes uh m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to uh include fancy lightning techniques , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's the same as in the cell phone , just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm , true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , it's not one light , it {disfmarker} there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but not for each button one LED , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no no , no . That's right , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} well , this uh should be it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um have a think about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , mine is already outdated ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay well ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we ar we are very curio curious to what the market um will feel about such a product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Since uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So any income is welcome . {vocalsound} Input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , make {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Uh then I'm sure the target market is uh ten million units . Of {gap} {disfmarker} of which we should sell about uh forty percent to make the five million ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could you step a little bit more to the right ? {vocalsound} Yeah , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um since uh the other part is uh forty percent of the market , I uh thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market . But uh since uh the requirements changed , that's uh not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , skip this . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , it's {disfmarker} this till true , of course . That they only use ten percent the buttons . The buttons to zap are used the {disfmarker} about uh fifteen hundred times , when uh the power button is only used one time . And the volume button's only four times . So they're obv obviously uh the most important buttons . And uh lots of people complained they kin can't find their remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we might want to build in a feature to uh support them . Some uh audio signal . Like uh home phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Well , that's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or a find {disfmarker} a finding function ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's definitely interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's quite a {disfmarker} yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It uh it separates our product from others uh as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "go on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , I just said that . And uh {disfmarker} well , this obvious , and he also said it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So that's what the market tells us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's about it , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The volume and uh the zap buttons are the mostly used ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh mo uh zap buttons most ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Volume , they are {gap} uh use a lot . But more than all the other buttons . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well it should just have a design {disfmarker} The perfect design for those {disfmarker} only those buttons . And first um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , we should focus on that , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , the technical uh {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are no technical difficulties . There's no um elaborate technique uh used in this uh kind of equipment . So um I don't think we have any hiccups there . So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really um what the market needs . So maybe it's a good idea to think about these buttons and and uh and a sound signal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the sound signal . Just one thing I'm just wondering , {vocalsound} the sound signal , from where do you execute th the s sound ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a problem . Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Th that's a bit of {disfmarker} that's a problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Another device is not a solution ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe maybe like clapping in your hands ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It should be uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like um turning on and off the the the lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but maybe you'll uh get some new technologies for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , there there are some devices who uh incorporate this technique already . Um there are video sets and um they have a special button , the find the remote control button . You press it and your T_V_ set starts to make a uh kind of weird sound , and your uh remote controls then start to beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Reports rep respend response to it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just like uh the phones Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes , that's it . Yes , same thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But uh th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But but T_V_s don't have all uh uh buttons . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , so we we should use something else ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , because we do not have a a a a a home um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I believe you will have an {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , and usually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We do not control the T_V_ set so well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And even if the T_V_ set would have such a button , uh you would have to walk to your T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , m yes . S and we b we want {gap} to make so it's {gap} {disfmarker} is easy as possible for our customers ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we should think about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what about the clapping technique ? Um because you se"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm convinced uh Sebastian will uh find uh one solution for us ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite complicated . Well , it's quite complicated . Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} And b"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , you see it a lot in in light uh lightning uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes . Well , basically the characteristics uh the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume , the amplitude of the sound ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a peak . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is uh generated a few times within a uh certain period of time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But there are many other sounds uh which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So if if you'd be watching a movie , it would constantly beep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can have just uh uh a home stat uh f a base station next to the T_V_ . Just a little antenna or uh something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe we can {disfmarker} Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well if you lost th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is there not something f something more easily {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't think people would bother walking to the T_V_ and press that button because they lost the {disfmarker} their remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I don't think uh {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh that's just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , and y the the most important thing for people is that there's a central point to which they can go and uh b uh perform a a some kind of uh {gap} . And then uh the remote control uh reports itself ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so w we should use have {disfmarker} uh we should use something like that . You do not want another device , which can be uh everywhere in the house , which you have to find first before you can find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} just a base station next to the T_V_ is the best possibility ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , something like that . But that will be very costly , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , m maybe um w we uh we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function , if it's possible within the costs and all that kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's not a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um maybe Sebastian should have uh a detailed look later on and um come up with a solution ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . I will ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because that's his {disfmarker} his field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Yes . But um before I do that I w I want to warn you that uh by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um and it will become more costly also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because there will be additional components which which uh will be used . And there are some implepe imp"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And do we even uh prefer the sound above the the LEDs , the lightning uh function ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I I think so , because um when you have a p newspaper over your remote control , you cannot see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a unique item uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's a distinction in the market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It will be an {disfmarker} a unique feature of our remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a different {disfmarker} exactly . It's an uni an unique feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um I think um it's worth um uh looking and and {disfmarker} probably more i interesting than uh than the lights ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just about uh the user interface , I came up with um {vocalsound} an easy remote control and an advanced remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What should we choose in in design ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Well , um according to Ruud , um people do not use um all the extra features very very often ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , the extra functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I have the numbers r I have the numbers right here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , t uh we won't support teletext which which was the third-most {disfmarker} the second-most used function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Used option ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we we do have a wise board , so I'm not questioning that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well {disfmarker} yeah , channel selection is obviously the most important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , so on the relevance scale uh the channel selection , the volume selection and the teletext ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , we skip that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , so it just th the basic functions . And we don't have to use it for D_V_D_ players uh and all kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Nope ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's out of the question ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Just through uh the easy uh design . We can make uh a nice design when when there's not mu uh much buttons in it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh uh uh I think we should go for the easier one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think also . Yes . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we should save costs uh by not implementing a lot of functions and uh the money that we can save from that we should use for uh having a nice design and uh thinking about the user interface"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ruud , how do you feel about that ? Uh do you agree , do you think the market would would respond to uh a simple {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well if we um include other uh innovative functions {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh then they uh might ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause young people uh like new features ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so this is is kind of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just a few buttons , trendy design , nice lightning effects wh and the sound ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , is it {disfmarker} maybe there's another possibility . You can make it look like an easy s piece of equipment , but it's quite elaborated , uh because it has many functions ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's more important to make the {disfmarker} make it look like a very uh friendly , easy to catch piece of equipment , but um nevertheless {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but are we not in in the in the manual uh {disfmarker} I mean if you have few buttons , no display , um I mean uh I guess it's l it's working with with a shift functions and um one button can uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Ok like that . Well , I was more thinking about a more elaborate way of controlling , by by these kinds of sticks or something like that . I don't know if if it's user-friendly . That's your field of expertise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but how does how does the remote uh report uh r uh give back to the user w in what state it is ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I don't know yet . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we do not implement uh a user history ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . There's {disfmarker} no , but there's no way to do that , because we cannot implement that kind of the system ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , but but if we use uh like a stick , for example , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W Mm-hmm . Well , maybe we can use a light for that . When you move the stick to a to a position , maybe uh a light next to it can lit up . So you know I've just uh pushed the button , or I changed the channel or t uh turned up the volume . Something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And if you use that stick for volume control and channel uh selection , you have the m two most important functions in one uh button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh and we could have other buttons for the for the advanced uh functions ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But does it {disfmarker} uh I then should n just use uh i instead of the stick , uh like many cell phones , just a round m well ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , draw draw it on the board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "should we just use a {disfmarker} Um it's already uh {disfmarker} oh , we have a blank . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , something like that . Oh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's just an easy uh way of of a round button what {disfmarker} which can be pushed in four directions . Instead of a stick ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really a stick , but {disfmarker} Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A stick is v vulnerab vulnerable when it's falling down"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it can break down ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just a round uh button should be the trick , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And {disfmarker} Yes , and this also looks more fancy , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it it will attract uh more uh uh public , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A younger uh {disfmarker} Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But you're the marketing man ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's also quite easy to use , so it'll {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh attract younger people because well new , and it might attract older people because it's easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Geez . Well , volume and something uh like that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The programme up and down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the vol yeah , the pen doesn't uh really does what I want ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , that's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , but w we still {vocalsound} we're still in the question of uh um uh putting in advanced options . Um Ruud just told us um the market is interested in some advanced uh new techniques . Um however , uh keeping it simple is is important for the costs and all all those kind of things . We need to find a balance between uh the advanced techniques and and the user-friendliness ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think our our next step to look at is just that . So I don't think it's {disfmarker} um we have something to do . Uh we can't discuss it right now , because n no one of us have {disfmarker} has the information to discuss about that , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , for {disfmarker} we do have to uh decide this this meeting . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We need to um have the uh the user function {disfmarker} uh the functions decided and um {vocalsound} uh our target audience ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but teletext is so uh is just scrapped . 'Kay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Do do you want a list of functions ? Do you want an explicit list ? Uh which uh incorporates all function available on the device ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , I do not want a full uh {disfmarker} it's not necessary to to have a full list , but I want um the kind of functions , for example uh th the most important are volume and uh programme selecting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , for example , that that's what we should think about . {gap} l how is the remote going to look ? Not not in the user interface , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , and just one function . The the the the programme to programme button , the switch to uh two channels , when you have uh something on channel four and something on channel six , just one button which which can uh change"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . A bit of a split mode ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Change ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh l like {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Dual channel watch ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , well um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "m maybe I should write that down . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you're the secretary . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , um what's your last name ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mielsen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mielsen , because I I was writing it down in the last uh {disfmarker} Mielsen . Right . Um I put all the minutes I make into the shared folder . So if you want to have a look at it , you know where to find it . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but make a s make a sub-folder for it , because it's starting to fill up already . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if you want to do it , Sebastian . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Our B_S_C_ uh W_ uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sure . {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , so so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Volume . Programme . Uh dual channel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , that's important ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And and do we want um the ten digits ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The ten digits ? Yeah , I believe so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , are are you sure ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well , if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not so sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's complicated ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but is that so relevant ? Because I don't think {disfmarker} but you should uh shou you should know that . If it were so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't buy it personally . A remote control without the ten digits ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh and I think the most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I agree actually . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just elder elder people would would buy it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can imagine when you're {disfmarker} when you have a satellite decoder and and you have , well , about six hundred channels , I can imagine you want this ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But if you're uh a regular T_V_ user , and you just want uh to watch the the Dutch television networks , well , you can uh {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you can use uh about ten buttons . That's enough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . The older people only use five of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but how how often do you watch all these channels ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and if if we {disfmarker} And if we are targeting at the younger audience , they will probably watch more channels than the older people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Often ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you're probably right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . But I think these uh ten uh buttons look a bit dull . Don't you think ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , it depends on the on the on the looks , on the on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well , y then there should be {disfmarker} should done {disfmarker} be done something specific with it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You c {vocalsound} you can d make them very fancy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "by um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean Nokia , they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I'm I'm {disfmarker} I do not agree {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , so you can experiment by {disfmarker} uh with with shape or with size or with colour , that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Exactly , exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um there are some numbers about uh speech recognition here that uh younger people would like it . Uh it might be expensive and uh hard to implement , but it would be a solution uh for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , speech ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So um when you add uh speech recognition to your remote control , uh it's very easy to change uh the channel . That's one thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very easy uh to find your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "To find {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So maybe that's a possibility , but I'm afraid it will be a bit costly ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} If if we would um drop the ten digits"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe when we uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but keep the programme and the volume ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because maybe people do not always want to use their voice , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Especially elder people uh don't like voice recognition . So then we should implement such a but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . But we do focus on younger people . We d it it's a board uh decision ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well . I I think it should uh should work , it sh we should manage that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we have to i to make um a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes . Well , the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage . It's mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find uh find the remote control button {disfmarker} uh remote control function ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's that's a big advantage , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , g good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's only one disadvantage uh by implementing this . Um the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult . So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But maybe can {disfmarker} we we can think something smart about it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There are some uh hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So when you just leave the device in a in a light room , it charges itself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But {disfmarker} But but can we manage it bu uh for the costs ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to do nothing for it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "M {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Twelve dollar fifty . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it seems like a very {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh if we if we could inc uh include a c a cradle in which it could recharge , then there wouldn't be uh a big problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll have to find that out . Yes . So {disfmarker} No , that's very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is a cradle very cheap ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Oh , it's very cheap . That's no problem . It's just a a case with two uh metal contacts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I know , b uh but there should be an adapter as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} Yes , but they're they're mass production ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're very cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it will cost us p practically nothing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . We we have uh about ten minutes left this meeting . Um {vocalsound} I would like to hear um {disfmarker} maybe maybe you all have th uh things not um spoken about , yeah , but that are important . Uh Ruud , you you came up with the voice recognition uh data . Uh are there other things about the market we should know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um I think we dealt with the most important information . Just that the younger part of uh the market isn't the forty percent we uh want to sell to . So we we should uh for least a bit uh look at the uh older people ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But with uh buttons like that , which are easy to use , we uh might attract them too . So {disfmarker} I don't think that's a big problem"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "although we are focussing on younger people uh to make it uh profitable uh {disfmarker} Profitable . We we {disfmarker} yeah , we still need to take in account the the bit older people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Yeah , profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Profitable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "O okay . {vocalsound} Um Roo . {gap} {disfmarker} Nothing to add ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have nothing uh nothing to add , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um I just want to make a summary of all all things uh spoken and uh the different possibilities . Um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so uh basically we've decided to implement a seemingly uh easy design . So on the outside it looks easy , but uh we can make it easy on the inside or elaborate on the inside . So that's one {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} those are the choices we have to make . But I think there's a big advantage in making it more elaborate by uh implementing uh speech techniques , uh voice recognition , that {disfmarker} these kinds of things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um it makes it also more uh attractable , I think , to our uh audience . Um there are some advantages and some disadvantages , and the main advantage is that we can implement uh fancy techniques , which uh I think our customers will like . The disadvantage is that there are some concerns about uh the the costs and um the things like uh battery lifetime , energy saving ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh another advantage is that the circuit board will become much more easier if we do not {disfmarker} do not implement these buttons . {vocalsound} If we just add uh uh a chip which does the voice recognition , uh our circuit board will become even more cheap . So that's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and that was the main issue , right ? The the board {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well , it wa it w it was an issue , but we also thought that {disfmarker} we already thought we should do it as cheaply as possible ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And this even uh makes it more cheapy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the cheaper the ch uh the the chip or th what was it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The fewer buttons you can use on it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fewer buttons you have , the ch ch the cheaper the circuit board , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's the other way around , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it's very cheap uh to incorporate uh uh an integrated circuit , a chip . So that's that's another advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It shouldn't be a big issue ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it {disfmarker} then we should just uh take a look at the costs and uh {disfmarker} especially for the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , because I don't know {disfmarker} Yes . I d I really don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be costly . Maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure how how we'll f uh determine the costs , I will have a look at it . Maybe you will get some information on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm not sure how how that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I al I I hope my personal coach will uh {vocalsound} have a lo uh look at it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great . Um {vocalsound} well , I think we're qui quite done ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We're done , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um for now we will have the lunch break ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "How nice ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm {disfmarker} don't know how long the break will be , but we'll find out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Me neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um then we will have thirty minutes of time to perform our individual work , uh and I'm sure your personal coaches will uh assist you with it . Um I will put the minutes I just made in the project documents folder . If you want to look at it um well , just do . Um {vocalsound} the Interface Designer , um I would like to {disfmarker} the next meeting I would like to receive the uh components concept ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Interface {disfmarker} industrial ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I'm sorry , yeah , I'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "User Interface Designer , uh Roo , I would like to see the user interface c uh concept ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , we understand . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the only problem is it {disfmarker} that it depends on the divisions {disfmarker} the decis uh decisions Sebastian makes . About the voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , i it should be easy ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's w w what we concluded . It should be an easy interface with not so much buttons . S just a a p a p a volume and a programme one . And um {vocalsound} um yeah , some some fancy lights ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's what we decided ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we drop the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no no , we didn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it shouldn't be integrated {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , it's {disfmarker} of course it's user interface , but um i I was talking about really the design of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Well um do we really have to decide now"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or can we decide next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We can decide the next meeting . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Because I'll have some updated info on that uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I guess all of you have i updated info . I'm sure the marketing expert will receive uh t uh you will do some trend watching ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I'm sure the market will um uh {vocalsound} {gap} uh will change , adapt"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Adapt ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Left ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we will see that . Um yeah , that's it for now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other questions"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or can we have the lunch ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can have the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll take the lunch ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good ."}], "query": "What did the team think about the energy source when discussing technical issues of the project?", "answer": "Industrial Designer proposed to incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries, but Project Manager agreed more with Marketing's proposal to include a cradle."}, {"id": 175, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "Project Manager initiated the meeting topic on the detailed design. Specifically, the prototype presentation was given by Industrial Designer, and calculation on each evaluation criteria was led by Marketing. Next, group members discussed changing aspects of the remote. Finally, they decided on changing the shape, instead of batteries. Then, Project Manager had a discussion on the process of the project with other teammates, including room for creativity, leadership, and convenience of materials. The group decided to write a final report in the end."}, {"id": 176, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about detailed design of the remote control.", "answer": "There were two main parts in the detailed design. Firstly, the prototype presentation, Industrial Designer presented the design on the wheel, the button, and the base of the remote control. Secondly, Marketing presented eleven points to be evaluated based on the findings in marketing trend reports and company strategy marketing. Besides, the group had a point calculation on each evaluation criterion."}, {"id": 177, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about changing an aspect of the remote.", "answer": "Project Manager suggested that the group might need to discuss changing an aspect of the remote. According to the previous evaluation, the worst one was material. Thus, the group gave suggestions on the smallish size, smashed or resembled fruit shape, and printed patterns on rubber design. The group also suggested changing batteries, but they ended up agreeing that there were no problems in battery design."}, {"id": 178, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the process of the project.", "answer": "Firstly, Project Manager asked about the room for creativity in fruit and squishiness. User Interface thought the prototype making was creatively stimulating and the product has met all the criteria. Next, Project Manager reflected on his leadership and management role in the group. Other members gave recognition to his performance and everyone's cooperation. Then, Project Manager asked about the convenience of the means for the materials and the pen used in the presentation. Group evaluated based on the user-friendly and the working efficiency."}, {"id": 179, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "Why did the group decide to choose the aspect of the shape of the remote to change?", "answer": "Instead of changing the shape of the remote, the group first discussed changing the batteries because some group mates gave a point under three. However, Marketing thought batteries were easy to insert so it would not be a problem anymore. In addition, all the group members gave the shape of the remote only two points. And they needed to change the most critical one. The shape and the squishiness of the remote were an innovation in terms of technology. Therefore, they all agreed to change the shape."}, {"id": 180, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the group think of the leadership in the process of the project?", "answer": "Project Manager thought his leadership was crap personally and he never did a management position. While Industrial Designer thought Project Manager did tell them when to start and when to end, which was important in good leadership. And User Interface thought Project Manager did a good job in leadership because they didn't have set roles so much, which was a democratic process. Marketing supplemented that everyone got blended quite well."}, {"id": 181, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Hmm . Okay everybody . Welcome to the detailed design meeting . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's see . Our agenda . Last time we discussed the squishy fruitiness of {vocalsound} our remote controls and how we might pursue that . Um and I think {disfmarker} looks like we've come up with some ideas . Um and we also talked about materials we'd use and what kind of chip would be necessary . Um so for later in the meeting I've done a a spreadsheet of production costs so we'll take a look at that . Um and see if it's changed at all from when we last discussed it . Um {vocalsound} so actually I think {disfmarker} Yeah um f {vocalsound} you guys wanna give a prototype presentation of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay well um . So our design looks something like this . This being the wheel that you use to uh change channels or volume or whatever . This is a button , serves as the power button if you hold it down , and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu . And uh the base of the remote control , which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel , is interchangeable . So you can change the colour , according to your {disfmarker} to suit your living room or whatever . And it comes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could change the vegetable , or fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , I can change the vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh is that broccoli ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This one's broccoli {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want . This is not to scale 'cause it would have the battery inside it . This is a mango ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The {disfmarker} it's trendy fruit , it's not just ordinary fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You don't have orange , you have mango . Um I guess strawberry's not as trendy , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S a very bright strawberry . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we'll come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control . And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them , because they'll need to switch 'em out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a l"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's been a little bit difficult to um make sure that it's hand-holdable , and that the user can use it , you know , it's not too big . Uh but we think that this you know , this size will be okay and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I guess the only other thing that we really didn't talk about was {disfmarker} or design yet actually , would be the um thing {disfmarker} the locator . How how {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the locator is just chip that's inside there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay so that's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the beeper's also inside there too somewhere"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you have to have a button on your on your {disfmarker} you have to attach the button to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah we didn't design that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we have {disfmarker} that that has yes yet to be designed ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it would be coordinating with that of course ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah that c hey that that could you know match the handset ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could have a broccoli , or you could have a mango . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So . Tada ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Um if you wanna look in your project documents folder , there's an Excel spreadsheet . Um the only one that's in there , production costs . And if you open it up . Um I've just stuck the numbers in , it was a real challenge there . {vocalsound} But if I missed anything that we've gone over , or if you see something that has changed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean , we decided on batteries , and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPod-like button . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I said uncurved or flat . I think that's what you have there , is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's really not very clear , because you got single curve and double curve and {disfmarker} d I dunno what that means ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One side is curved and then the other side is curved ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well {disfmarker} yeah . If we're talking about the area just {disfmarker} oh I d I dunno . I guess we'd have to contact the company that makes them and see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um so what else ? There's plastic for that area around the button . Um and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and lots of special colours actually . {vocalsound} Uh scroll wheel . Do you see anything that I've missed ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I think that's alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so that would make our total of eleven point nine , which is even less than twelve point five , which means we'd be making even more of a profit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if we sold a lot of squishy things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Boo yeah . Okay . {vocalsound} S So {disfmarker} Mm . Did y what did you work on ? The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Do you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've got a presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . I think that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I need {disfmarker} where's the cable ? Right what happens is we have to um decide whether this this whole this whole project we've been working on actually um meets the standards we were set at the start . Um . Right . This doesn't {disfmarker} okay . Um the method is {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} well I've analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing . And um the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , and this is {disfmarker} everything's listed down . Um , look in a certain way , feel in a certain way , it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use . These are all things we looked at at the start , um and criteria that have to be met . We have to use a table , I'll show you that later , together to decide whether it meets the standards . And {vocalsound} we we have therefore in total um {disfmarker} We have five {disfmarker} we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated . And um the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria . I would like to show you the table we have to use . Um . No . This is the table . Can you see this here ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um so the que the questions I've given you {disfmarker} c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven . And we'll just go through each point together , hopefully . Um . I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno how it works exactly , I haven't been told ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own {disfmarker} {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's in the um {disfmarker} it's in the project documents ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Is it meeting three minutes ? No it's not minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's called evaluation criteria ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it's under evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh , the PowerPoint one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You've found it all ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it was um {disfmarker} Yeah true's one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True's one and false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we can do it separately and then discuss it"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if if that's what people wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's actually a scale ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wait , one is true and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so these are the questions we're answering . And one is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes it's {disfmarker} if it's fancy you put one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's really unfancy it's seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If it's somewhere in between you put four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Does it feel fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Feels like play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They shouldn't really be questions . Should be more like {disfmarker} Are the batteries easy to insert ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm gonna say yes . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ? Very very true . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I imagine they're somewhere on the front . We have a little case that you slip 'em in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we just about ready ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Apparently I'm supposed to use the whiteboard . Do we {disfmarker} um is it necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We'll just do um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah the the marker thing kinda stopped working last time we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Our animals will forever be there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Un unless you feel you need it t to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't feel any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right um {disfmarker} Right so one point one ? We'll just go in a circle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Ooh I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think we should {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's four if you wanna do that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It adds to sixteen , so that's four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no . It adds to thirteen . One five five two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I thought she said five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One five five two is thirteen , over four for now . I think that's um {disfmarker} next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Six ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I wasn't cheating I swear ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-oh . Right . One point three is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's a one was true and seven was false ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Okay , so you guys really didn't like it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh I thought it was the other way round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wait a minute ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I thought it was the other way round too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we do have about the same thing , we just have it the other way {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sh Yeah I I was thinking one means no points , you know , all the way up to the top {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah yeah . It was one is true and {vocalsound} false is seven ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I should've kept the table up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh gosh . Okay . Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll just I'll just reverse them all . It's no problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , well I'm glad this came out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I thought you guys hated it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I was like , why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} Oh that's quite funny {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . So , starting again , one point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Say two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay , one point two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Okay . Um , one point three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . {vocalsound} Two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two point {disfmarker} I think I missed two . {vocalsound} Wait , is that two point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I put it down as one point four for some reason ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One point four , one point five . Okay right"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's {disfmarker} I have two of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mine has all kinds of problems ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry about that . T two point two , which is one point five ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh three . Wait why did I put three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I meant one on mine too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Three point one . Is that correct on my slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three point one . I have four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , four , three , three , three point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . One ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Five ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two . Four point two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Two and four point three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One , two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right so I put one on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay I'll um I'll just do the calculations now if you want to continue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or is it tedious ? I'm I'm sorry this was so tedious for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No no that's um {disfmarker} I think we should look at the ones that {vocalsound} like where s where people said four , where {disfmarker} um it looks like we might wanna discuss changing an aspect of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I didn't know how else to do it . Okay . Well the worst ones were three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do {disfmarker} does every ones have the slide ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was material ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slide show . Material {vocalsound} technologically innovative , okay . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I don't know , anyone ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah that {disfmarker} it's three point one was not that good . Four point one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Does the shape {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four point two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I'm having I'm having trouble imagining the {disfmarker} is it uh gonna be the size , like the the controller ? It {disfmarker} or bigger ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the wheel would probably be {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And like then it {disfmarker} you could hold it in your hand better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the base would definitely be larger , 'cause some of these are not as easy to hold . They're kinda smallish ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . No but I imagine even if it was bigger , like if it's round and it's big then you you can't get {disfmarker} that's why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The flat one . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um but I don't s I I personally don't think this is comfortable to to sit there , like it's an awkward position ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I didn't {disfmarker} yeah . But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well if they're that s uh stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's still too big I think , in your hand . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And would it even resemble fruit that way ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like certain ones {disfmarker} you'd have to limit the fruit selection ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could probably do a strawberry still ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the broccoli would be out ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You could do {gap} , although the broccoli is quite comfortable , I have to say , like {disfmarker} sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah that I I {disfmarker} when you were holding that before , it actually looked {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . That looked really good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't know . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are there any fruits that look like broccoli , no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not that I can think of . Rhubarb . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Rhubarb ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I think that broccoli is my favourite actually ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} These obscure fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh despite the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think we needn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if um the {disfmarker} it was just patterns on like {disfmarker} we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You know like like just a printed yeah or coloured yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's just colour , and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . That could work ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or I mean we could even have fruit like around {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if we if we need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah and just have the colour match or something ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . And if we wanna incorporate the fruit thing somehow , there might be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean if it if it in if it uh conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . 'Cause yeah no-one wants to hold a remote that's uncomfortable obviously ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or like {disfmarker} I dunno , some of 'em you can kind of think {disfmarker} see as like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like you could {disfmarker} if it was only this {disfmarker} you know , if it was shaped like that , and it just had that . But you see the problem is you have to attach that , and this has to be detachable ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like maybe that's just too big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kinda hold it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is a nice kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's sorta like a joystick ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause like kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could make it that shape but just have different colours , and call 'em the different fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or like even {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Dif"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We went with shape because we were having fun with the play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or even like {disfmarker} Yeah like you said , like a joystick like that . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Like uh we could do {disfmarker} I'm trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause that , I think {disfmarker} I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you still have the comfort of holding it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} like if it's like this , you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I mean it {disfmarker} do we have any other ideas about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could tr I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Think the critical ones came out to be {disfmarker} yeah that one . {vocalsound} . Batteries easy to insert for some reason ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which can be easily {disfmarker} I think that's not a problem any more ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The batteries are going in the back ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That {disfmarker} everyone gave that a one or a two . Yeah they'd probably be either on the front or the side of the remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The reason I I ga I didn't give it a one {disfmarker} I think I gave it a three because I thought you'd have to like unc clip {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No I imagine there'd be sort of a hatch door ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no you could {disfmarker} Just like any other one . Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah um like on a normal remote ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it would probably either in the f no it can't be in the front 'cause the I_R_'s right there , but it'd be on one of the sides probably ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think everyone's under three anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I think it's {disfmarker} yeah those are the only two points ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool . Well {disfmarker} Yeah the broccoli I guess wins ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I'd agree with changing the shape ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} We were a bit off task ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um so uh I can't think of any {disfmarker} So we'll have to like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes , but then that kind of re-designs the whole project like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you could do like {disfmarker} Yeah that's true ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . And it would probably cost more to produce , 'cause they're irregular ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah that's true . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Which is why printing might be like {disfmarker} just printing the fruit on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} fruit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound} Not really {disfmarker} Well we've done finance evaluation criteria , production evaluation . {vocalsound} Um so project evaluation ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do you want this and we can all {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I guess we're supposed to discuss um the prod the process of the project and how satisfied {disfmarker} oh , oh it's alright . Uh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's alright yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I did ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean fruit and squishiness . How c more creative can you get ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sponginess . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The prototype making was very creatively stimulating"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and I think we've come up with a product that's fun and meets all the criteria {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And how was our leadership and teamwork ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it was good . We knew what we were doing . It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I thought my leadership was crap personally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well you told us when to start and when to end , and that's all that matters ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Excuse me , am I allowed to say that ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you were fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , well I'm never gonna do a management position , I know that now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You did a good job leading ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um yeah , I thought we all worked very well together ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah we didn't {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} uh it all c sort of blended quite well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think it more than anything we didn't really have our set roles so much , as we just would be like {vocalsound} I don't know , all had ideas about it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Very democratic . No spats , that was good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um and the means for like {disfmarker} the materials we used , how convenient were they ? Like the the pens , the whiteboard ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we used {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I'm not a big fan of any Microsoft , PowerPoint or any of this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you a Mac person ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No no I never touch Macs either ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I just use the Unix or the off market , sort of WordPerfect and all these other things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which isn't very user-friendly though . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Well the problem is if you don't {disfmarker} like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it . So I have all these documents I can't use now . But yeah I mean I guess it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I felt like my {disfmarker} I dunno if it was just my role , but l but uh I di I thought that my {disfmarker} the information that was available to me was kind of just like {disfmarker} or maybe it was just the idea that we had . But there's kinda {disfmarker} it was kinda like okay , I don't really think {disfmarker} I dunno what I'm doing here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I didn't really think it was helpful . So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I didn't really like the PowerPoint presentations ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But yeah I d I don't really like PowerPoint personally , {vocalsound} think it's kinda stupid ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . I never use it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't say I found everything particularly helpful . Like I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It didn't really {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My first bit of information was like this child's drawn picture of how a remote works ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I though it was brilliant no ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean m my problem {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah it probably does ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So like a f"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it depends on the role"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause my problem was , you guys had access to like {disfmarker} they'd put {disfmarker} send you to sites and stuff right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See I couldn't do that , so I didn't really know what you guys were doing . And when you were talking about it I was just like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know that's wh that's why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As if you'd wanted to ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole um"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "System . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "a whole system ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'cause of course they can't give you uh uh anything comparable to the internet for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I mean , it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I think it's interesting how it all went together , like I had the stuff about how me how rubber's cheap , and you have how people want it to be spongy , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems planned you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I kinda thought that um {disfmarker} I felt like I would go and like try to use my information , or like I'd make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno I felt like I was off-task all the time . But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it wasn't necessarily what was like {disfmarker} we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If I hadn't been told that fruit was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I think that {vocalsound} it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh right . given certain information or {disfmarker} Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like if everyone's given the same input {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't have a clue , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um what's next ? Looks like {disfmarker} oh no that's not um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What do you guys think of the pens ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It asks about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're pretty cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wanna s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're kinda hard to write with though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I I've f forgotten once or twice to {vocalsound} check the box . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I I'd like to see what what it looks like on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're nicer than the pen that I'm using , because like your stuff actually shows up here , rather than having to look at the screen and write ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But even so , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas found ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah it's all very new ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ? It's all very new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think I'd like to um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I dunno . Like it was {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think the microphones are okay when you're sitting down , but like they're kinda clumsy I guess when you're {disfmarker} like when you're s going up to the whiteboard like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah . Well they drop off if you like move too much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I dunno . But they're they're okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't think we're supposed to be testing these microphones . Maybe we are ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh I think , and I think that uh all this technology like {disfmarker} I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can't imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone's notes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well the thing is , like I actually worked in a company ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or like {disfmarker} I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and I had a role and I had to go to meetings . And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video 'cause I missed a meeting . Like usually I missed meetings deliberately ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's just {disfmarker} there's really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting , like when you're actually at a real meeting in a real company ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's mostly like rehashing old stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you're sort of going over general stuff that anybody who's sort of on task should already know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like the {disfmarker} there's just really not a lot of information that goes through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It seems like way overkill ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I wouldn't need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I guess it would be {disfmarker} it's gotta be worth it to {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} 'cause I'm just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful , 'cause can't really imagine , dunno . How about a p {vocalsound} a {gap} {vocalsound} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does anyone wanna talk about fruit more while we still have time ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any other ideas for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What what's the end ? Are we are we supposed to um {disfmarker} you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um we still have time if there's any other input ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that the end ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} I think we did really well personally , which is why we've you know , gone through this so quickly . 'Cause I mean we've all {disfmarker} we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory , it fits the budget , and it's trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "End of meeting . You have to tell her , she {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think that's all for today . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay we have to fill in all this stuff ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} M meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Stuff stuff stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Meeting adjourned ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I've learned not to bring play-dough to meetings . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it would be a good idea , I like it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's hard enough to get people actually paying attention . Especially if you have food ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we're supposed to write final reports . 'Cause {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All of us ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well there's al eight , nine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ooh . Oh ooh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Or is that just me ? {vocalsound}"}], "query": "What did the group think of the convenience of presentation materials?", "answer": "Both User Interface and Industrial Designer thought it was not helpful to use PowerPoint to present. Instead, they preferred writing notes for massive information, while Marketing and Project Manager thought PowerPoint materials were quite useful. Specifically, Project Manager mentioned that he felt ignorant when the group was explaining things."}, {"id": 182, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah , so comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "On ? Am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think I 'm on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "growl ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "For which we thank you , by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love that story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh my goodness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Are you being silly ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh wait do we have t"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You 're kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And any rate ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e yeah , the"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So when I say"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Just plug one ear ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You lose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just to save time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does matter for them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , could we ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's strangely satisfying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We are ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We might ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes , and that too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I haven't looked at it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but I will ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and they will be incorporated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I s Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alrigh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That was the most recent one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "current formalism thing that you presented ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "readability {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , this is the twenty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , better hurry up then !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Easy parser ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and the generation outputter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's done ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You have to change those strategies ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I could hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I can hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I heard it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sounds like Fey ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "The system breaking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the s ? Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Looks familiar . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Future activities \" something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "one of Nancy 's st"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well , that might have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "your quals and your triple - AI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You could get it out of there , or some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , you shouldn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "is that what you said ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Roughly , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh my god !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Of what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the building ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's horrible ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Does it exist yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "They are w now building it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , as a model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "On that one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "In the presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , in the presentation here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Why ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He slipped on the wet floor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh , Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Depends ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Forceful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In other news ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , w where it should illustrate"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "as well as , mappings ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , what did he say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Did you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Join the club ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , but OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right , and like , what is film ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah , I mean ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "b that 's OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . So th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . You got there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That part is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You got to out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There was ? Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That kind of thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , the thesis !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I meant this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "it 's just for one guy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and , uh , someth"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Totally weird stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a speech - act ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might be beyond what you want to do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "About Plato and the book ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Just beyond that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Onward ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Where is the castle ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "A castle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Two hundred million dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ellipsis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "figuring that out is what this is about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "www ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Like what side were they on ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But that 's not metaphorical ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "State ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Would you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I 'm really into art ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Fixed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "A fixed expression , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . As an institution ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Metonymy , polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love Van Gogh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh geez ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I have to go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . s See you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and deal with ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "w Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Location versus what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "instruction ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you might want both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}], "query": "Summarize the meeting", "answer": "The meeting was taken up by discussion about a thesis proposal and a talk about to take place at EML. It was advised that more emphasis should be put on the role of construal in the understanding of metaphor and metonymy. Base constructions deal with the norm, while further general domain mechanisms determine how the constructions are invoked depending on the context. Several potential examples of polysemy were discussed in detail: \"walk/run into\", \"on the bus\", \"out of film\", \"where is X?\". However, none of them was an example of lexical polysemy resolved by construal straightforward enough to include in the proposal; the tourist domain is not metaphor rich."}, {"id": 183, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah , so comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "On ? Am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think I 'm on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "growl ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "For which we thank you , by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love that story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh my goodness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Are you being silly ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh wait do we have t"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You 're kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And any rate ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e yeah , the"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So when I say"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Just plug one ear ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You lose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just to save time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does matter for them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , could we ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's strangely satisfying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We are ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We might ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes , and that too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I haven't looked at it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but I will ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and they will be incorporated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I s Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alrigh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That was the most recent one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "current formalism thing that you presented ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "readability {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , this is the twenty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , better hurry up then !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Easy parser ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and the generation outputter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's done ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You have to change those strategies ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I could hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I can hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I heard it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sounds like Fey ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "The system breaking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the s ? Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Looks familiar . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Future activities \" something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "one of Nancy 's st"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well , that might have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "your quals and your triple - AI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You could get it out of there , or some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , you shouldn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "is that what you said ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Roughly , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh my god !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Of what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the building ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's horrible ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Does it exist yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "They are w now building it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , as a model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "On that one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "In the presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , in the presentation here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Why ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He slipped on the wet floor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh , Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Depends ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Forceful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In other news ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , w where it should illustrate"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "as well as , mappings ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , what did he say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Did you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Join the club ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , but OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right , and like , what is film ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah , I mean ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "b that 's OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . So th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . You got there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That part is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You got to out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There was ? Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That kind of thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , the thesis !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I meant this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "it 's just for one guy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and , uh , someth"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Totally weird stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a speech - act ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might be beyond what you want to do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "About Plato and the book ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Just beyond that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Onward ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Where is the castle ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "A castle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Two hundred million dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ellipsis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "figuring that out is what this is about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "www ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Like what side were they on ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But that 's not metaphorical ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "State ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Would you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I 'm really into art ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Fixed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "A fixed expression , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . As an institution ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Metonymy , polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love Van Gogh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh geez ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I have to go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . s See you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and deal with ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "w Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Location versus what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "instruction ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you might want both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}], "query": "What\u2019s the thesis about?", "answer": "The thesis proposal presents the idea of \"construal\" and makes claims as to how inferences are drawn in a probabilistic relational model by using information from the ontology, situation, user and discourse models. It was advised that more emphasis should be put on the role of construal in the understanding of metaphor and metonymy."}, {"id": 184, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah , so comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "On ? Am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think I 'm on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "growl ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "For which we thank you , by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love that story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh my goodness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Are you being silly ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh wait do we have t"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You 're kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And any rate ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e yeah , the"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So when I say"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Just plug one ear ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You lose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just to save time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does matter for them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , could we ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's strangely satisfying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We are ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We might ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes , and that too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I haven't looked at it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but I will ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and they will be incorporated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I s Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alrigh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That was the most recent one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "current formalism thing that you presented ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "readability {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , this is the twenty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , better hurry up then !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Easy parser ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and the generation outputter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's done ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You have to change those strategies ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I could hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I can hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I heard it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sounds like Fey ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "The system breaking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the s ? Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Looks familiar . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Future activities \" something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "one of Nancy 's st"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well , that might have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "your quals and your triple - AI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You could get it out of there , or some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , you shouldn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "is that what you said ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Roughly , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh my god !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Of what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the building ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's horrible ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Does it exist yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "They are w now building it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , as a model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "On that one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "In the presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , in the presentation here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Why ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He slipped on the wet floor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh , Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Depends ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Forceful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In other news ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , w where it should illustrate"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "as well as , mappings ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , what did he say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Did you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Join the club ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , but OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right , and like , what is film ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah , I mean ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "b that 's OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . So th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . You got there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That part is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You got to out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There was ? Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That kind of thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , the thesis !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I meant this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "it 's just for one guy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and , uh , someth"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Totally weird stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a speech - act ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might be beyond what you want to do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "About Plato and the book ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Just beyond that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Onward ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Where is the castle ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "A castle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Two hundred million dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ellipsis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "figuring that out is what this is about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "www ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Like what side were they on ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But that 's not metaphorical ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "State ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Would you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I 'm really into art ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Fixed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "A fixed expression , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . As an institution ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Metonymy , polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love Van Gogh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh geez ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I have to go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . s See you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and deal with ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "w Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Location versus what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "instruction ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you might want both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}], "query": "What was said about EML talk?", "answer": "The talk will present the work that is currently being done at ICSI including examples of inference of user intentions and of the recordings of the on-going data collection. The talk will also outline the theoretical (X-schemas, image schemas, Bayes-nets) and neural background."}, {"id": 185, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah , so comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Good . I know that he 's going to like , Taiwan and other places to eat . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "On ? Am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I think I 'm on ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Good . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Bye ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I just had one of the most frustrating meetings of my career ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's definitely not the most frustrating meeting I 've ever had ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You a You 're {disfmarker} you remember you 're being recorded at this point ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , so , w we didn't yet specify with whom ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So that 's why Keith and I are going to be a little dazed for the first half m the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Huh . Yeah , I 'm just gonna sit here and"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I avoided that as long as I could for you guys ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "growl ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "For which we thank you , by the way ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are very appreciative , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I know you were {disfmarker} you were doing that , but , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yeah , how di how d exactly did , uh , that paper lead to anti - lock brakes ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , I could tell you had a rough day , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love that story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , it 's a great story ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh my goodness ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh yeah , um , Liz suggested we could start off by uh , doing the digits all at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "All at the same time . I don't know if {disfmarker} I would get distracted and confused , probably ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ? Do we have to like , synchronize ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , I think you 're supposed to {disfmarker} OK . We can do this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Are you being silly ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh wait do we have t"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Everybody 's got different digits ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah , do we have to time them at the same time or just overlapping {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You 're kidding ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , no , just {disfmarker} just start whenever you want ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And any rate ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "e yeah , the"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , they {disfmarker} they have s they have the close talking microphones for each of us ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's true ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , there 's separate channels ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So when I say"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Just plug one ear ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You lose ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK , bye ! That was a great meeting !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "So - {vocalsound} Now , uh , why ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Just to save time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Does matter for them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Are we gonna start all our meetings out that way from now on ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Too bad . I kinda like it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , could we ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's strangely satisfying ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . It 's a ritual ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Are we to r Just to make sure I know what 's going on , we 're talking about Robert 's thesis proposal today ? Is that"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "true ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We are ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We might ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you {disfmarker} you had s you said there were two things that you might wanna do . One was rehearse your i i talk {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh yes , and that too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not rehearse , I mean , I have just not spent any time on it , so I can show you what I 've got , get your input on it , and maybe some suggestions , that would be great . And the same is true for the proposal . I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains . So , um . I don't know how much of a chance you had to actually read it"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I haven't looked at it"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "yet ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but you could always send me comments per electronic mail"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but I will ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and they will be incorporated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} It basically says , well \" this is construal \" , and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general , domain - general rules how things are construed , and then the idea is to use ontology , situation , user , and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model {pause} to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "in our beloved tourism domain . But , with a focus on"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Can I s Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I think I need a copy of this , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK , we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can pass {disfmarker} pass my , uh {disfmarker} we can pass my extra copy around ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I is there an extra copy around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh . He sent it . OK . You can keep it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Er , actually , my only copy , now that I think about it ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alrigh"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , I don't {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "but . I already read half of it , so it 's OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , actually this is the {disfmarker} the newest version after your comments ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no I s I s I see this has got the castle in it , and stuff like that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , maybe the version I didn't have that I {disfmarker} mine {disfmarker} the w did the one you sent on the email have the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That was the most recent one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK . Cuz I read halfway but I didn't see a castle thing ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm changing this . Just so you know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "But , anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , if you would have checked your email you may have received a note from Yees asking you to send me the , uh , up - to - d"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . Oh , sorry . OK . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "current formalism thing that you presented ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I will . OK . OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But for this it doesn't matter . But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "We can talk about it later . That 's not even ready , so . Um , OK ! Go on t to , uh , whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm making changes . \" Don't worry about that . \" OK . Mmm - mmm . Oh ! OK , sorry , go on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And any type of comment whether it 's a spelling or a syntax or"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "readability {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There 's only one \" S \" in \" interesting \" . On page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway . And y uh , email any time , but most usefully before {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "The twenty - first I 'm assuming ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "The twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , this is the twenty - first ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "What , today 's the twenty - first ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , better hurry up then !"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh , man !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Before the twenty - ninth ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The twenty - ninth ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's when I 'm meeting with Wolfgang Wahlster to sell him this idea ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK ? Then I 'm also going to present a little talk at EML , about what we have done here and so of course , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna start out with this slide , so the most relevant aspects of our stay here , and um , then I 'm asking them to imagine that they 're standing somewhere in Heidelberg and someone asks them in the morning {disfmarker} The Cave Forty - Five is a {disfmarker} is a well - known discotheque which is certainly not open at that {disfmarker} that time . And so"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "they 're supposed to imagine that , you know , do they think the person wants to go there , or just know where it is ? Uh , which is probably not , uh , the case in that discotheque example , or in the Bavaria example , you just want to know where it is . And so forth . So basically we can make a point that here is ontological knowledge but if it 's nine {disfmarker} nine PM in the evening then the discotheque question would be , for example , one that might ask for directions instead of just location . Um , {vocalsound} and so forth and so forth . That 's sort of motivating it . Then what have we done so far ? We had our little bit of , um , um , SmartKom stuff , that we did , um , everth"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , you 've got the parser done . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's the {disfmarker} not the construction parser . That 's the , uh , tablet - based parser ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Easy parser ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and the generation outputter ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Halfway done ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's done ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You have to change those strategies ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? That 's , ten words ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Yeah . Well , i it , you know . Maybe twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Twelve ? OK . And , um , and Fey is doing the synthesis stuff as we speak . That 's all about that . Then I 'm going to talk about the data , you know these things about {disfmarker} uh , actually I have an example , probably . Two s Can you hear that ? Or should I turn the l volume on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I could hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I can hear it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I heard it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "They might not hear it in the {disfmarker} well maybe they will . I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "This was an actual , um , subject ? Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sounds like Fey ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But they 're {disfmarker} they 're mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "the {disfmarker} you can observe that all the time , they 're trying to match their prosody onto the machine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh really . Interesting . Oh , it 's pretty slow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "The system breaking ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What is the s ? Oh !"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "OK . And so forth and so forth . Um , I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing , and how we solved it , and some preliminary observations , also , um , I 'm not gonna put in the figures from Liz , but I thought it would interesting to , uh , um , point out that it 's basically the same . Um , as in every human - human telephone conversation , and the human - computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from , uh , some first , uh , observations . Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz , uh {disfmarker} how to get there , what actually is happening there today , and then maybe talk about the big picture here , e tell a little bit {disfmarker} as much as I {pause} can about the NTL story . I {disfmarker} I wa I do wanna , um {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure about this , whether I should put this in , um , that , you know , you have these two sort of different ideas that are {disfmarker} or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works , and then , {vocalsound} talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude , I 'll talk about monkeys in Italy . And , um , Srini was gonna send me some slides but he didn't do it , so from {disfmarker} but I have the paper , I can make a resume of that , and then I stole an X - schema from one of your talks I think ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh . I was like , \" where 'd you get that ? \" OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , that looks familiar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" Looks familiar . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I think that 's Bergen , Chang , something , or the other ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , and that 's {disfmarker} now I 'm not going to bring that . So that 's basically what I have , so far , and the rest is for airplanes . So X - schemas , then , I would like to do {disfmarker} talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes - net ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "End of story . Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh , maybe the FMRI stuff . Should I mention the fact that , um , we 're also actually started {disfmarker} going to start to look at people 's brains in a more direct way ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You certainly can . I mean I y I you know , I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You might just wanna like , tack that on , as a comment , to something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Future activities \" something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , the time to mention it , if you mention it , is when you talk about mirror neurons , then you should talk about the more recent stuff , about the kicking"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and , you know , the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} that the plan is to see to what extent the {disfmarker} you 'll get the same phenomena with stories about this , so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and that we 're planning to do this , um , which , we are . So that 's one thing . Um . Depends . I mean , there is a , um , whole language learning story , OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "which , uh , actually , i i even on your five - layer slide , you {disfmarker} you 've got an old one that {disfmarker} that leaves that off ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do have it here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um . And , of course , you know , the {disfmarker} the big picture is this bit ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But , you know , it would {disfmarker} But I don't think I {disfmarker} I am capable of {disfmarker} of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter . I mean , there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works , so the emergentism story would be nice to be {disfmarker} you know , it would be nice to tell people how {disfmarker} what 's happening there , plus how the , uh , language learning stuff works ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , so anyway , I {disfmarker} I agree that 's not central ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What you might wanna do is , um , and may not , but you might wanna {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} rip off a bunch of the slides on the anal there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} we 've got various i generations of slides that show language analysis , and matching to the underlying image schemas , and , um , how the construction and simulation {disfmarker} that ho that whole th"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , th that {disfmarker} that 's c that comes up to the X - schema slide ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so basically I 'm gonna steal that from Nancy ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK , I can give you a more recent {disfmarker} if you want {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "one of Nancy 's st"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "well , that might have enough ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , I {disfmarker} yeah , but I also have stuff you {disfmarker} trash you left over ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "your quals and your triple - AI ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The quals w the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the quals slides would be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You could get it out of there , or some"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Which I can even email you then , you know , like there probably was a little {disfmarker} few changes , not a big deal . Yeah , you could steal anything you want , I don't care . Which you 've already done , obviously . So . Sorry"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't feel bad about it at all"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "No , you shouldn't ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "because {disfmarker} because you are on the , uh , title ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , that 's great , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean on the {disfmarker} the , you 're {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} see , that 's you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm glad to see propagation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ? Propagated ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean I might even mention that this work you 're doing is sort of also with the MPI in Leipzig , so ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly related , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Because , um , EML is building up a huge thing in Leipzig ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might wanna say . Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So it {disfmarker} It 's on biocomputation . Would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , it 's different , this is the , uh , DNA building , or someth the double helix building ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Kind of a different level of analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The {disfmarker} yeah it was {disfmarker} it turns out that if {disfmarker} if you have multiple billions of dollars , y you can do all sorts of weird things , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Wait , they 're building a building in the shape of DNA ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "is that what you said ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Roughly , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ! Oh boy !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Including cr cross - bridges ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh my god !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That 's brilliant ! Hhh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You d you really {disfmarker} now I I spent {disfmarker} the last time I was there I spent maybe two hours hearing this story which is , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Of what"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Y You definitely wanna w don't wanna waste that money on research ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the building ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "That 's horrible ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Well , no , no , y i there 's infinite money . See you th you th you then fill it with researchers ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "And give them more money . They just want a fun place for them to {disfmarker} to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "And everybody gets a trampoline in their office ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , the {disfmarker} the offices are actually a little {disfmarker} the , think of um , ramps , coming out of the double helix and then you have these half - domes , glass half - domes , and the offices are in {disfmarker} in the glass half - dome ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Alright , let 's stop talking about this ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Does it exist yet ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "They are w now building it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , as a model ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , yeah , I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point , th th that the date , the , uh , a lot of the {disfmarker} this is interacting with , uh , people in Italy but also definitely the people in Leipzig and the {disfmarker} the b the combination of the biology and the Leipzig connection might be interesting to these guys , yeah . OK . OK . Anyway ! Enough of that , let 's talk about your thesis proposal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , if somebody has something to say ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You might want to , uh , double - check the spellings of the authors ' names on your references , you had a few , uh , misspells in your slides , there . Like I believe you had \" Jackendorf \" ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , unless there 's a person called \" Jackendorf \" ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "On that one ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah . But that 's the only thing I noticed in there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "In the presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In the presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'll probably {disfmarker} I c might have {disfmarker} I 'll probably have comments for you separately , not important . Anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , in the presentation here ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what he was talking about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I was ac actually worried about bibtex . Uh . No , that 's quite possible . That 's copy and paste from something ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So I did note i i it looks like the , uh , metaphor didn't get in yet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Uh , it did , there is a reference to Srini {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , s reference is one thing , the question is is there any place {disfmarker} Oh , did you put in something about ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Metonymy and metaphor here , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "uh , the individual , we 'd talked about putting in something about people had , uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah , OK . Good . I see where you have it . So the top of the second {disfmarker} of pa page two you have a sentence ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , what I meant is , I think even before you give this , to Wahlster , uh , you should , unless you put it in the text , and I don't think it 's there yet , about {disfmarker} we talked about is the , um , scalability that you get by , um , combining the constructions with the general construal mechanism . Is that in there ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , mmm . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK , so where {disfmarker} where is it , cuz I 'll have to take a look ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um , but I {disfmarker} I did not focus on that aspect but , um {disfmarker} Ehhh , um , it 's just underneath , uh , um , that reference to metaphor . So it 's the last paragraph before two . So on page two , um , the main focus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , OK . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But that 's really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That 's not about that , is it ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it s says it but it doesn't say {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it d it d"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Why ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah , it doesn't give the punch line ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Cuz let me tell the gang what I think the punch line is , because it 's actually important , which is , that , the constructions , that , uh , Nancy and Keith and friends are doing , uh , are , in a way , quite general but cover only base cases . And to make them apply to metaphorical cases and metonymic cases and all those things , requires this additional mechanism , of construal . And the punch line is , he claimed , that if you do this right , you can get essentially orthogonality , that if you introduce a new construction at {disfmarker} at the base level , it should com uh , interact with all the metonymies and metaphors so that all of the projections of it also should work ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And , similarly , if you introduce a new metaphor , it should then uh , compose with all of the constructions ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it {disfmarker} to the extent that that 's true then {disfmarker} then it 's a big win over anything that exists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So does that mean instead of having tons and tons of rules in your context - free grammar you just have these base constructs and then a general mechanism for coercing them ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . So that , you know , for example , uh , in the metaphor case , that you have a kind of direct idea of a source , path , and goal and any metaphorical one {disfmarker} and abstract goals and all that sort of stuff {comment} {disfmarker} you can do the same grammar ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And it is the same grammar . But , um , the trick is that the {disfmarker} the way the construction 's written it requires that the object of the preposition for example be a container . Well , \" trouble \" isn't a container , but it gets constr construed as a c container ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Et cetera . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's where this , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "So with construal you don't have to have a construction for every possible thing that can fill the rule ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So 's it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a very big deal , i i in this framework , and the thesis proposal as it stands doesn't , um , I don't think , say that as clearly as it could ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it doesn't say it at all . No . Even though {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One could argue what {disfmarker} if there are basic cases , even . I mean , it seems like nothing is context - free ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , nothing is context - free , but there are basic cases . That is , um , there are physical containers , there are physical paths , there {disfmarker} you know , et cetera ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But \" walked into the cafe and ordered a drink , \" and \" walked into the cafe and broke his nose , \" that 's sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , it doesn't mean that they 're unambiguous ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean , a cafe can be construed as a container , or it can be construed you know as {disfmarker} as a obstacle ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or as some physical object . So there are multiple construals . And in fact that 's part of what has to be done . This is why there 's this interaction between the analysis and the construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The b the {disfmarker} the double arrow ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So , uh , yeah , I mean , it doesn't magically make ambiguity go away ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it does say that , uh , if you walked into the cafe and broke your nose , then you are construing the cafe as an obstacle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And if that 's not consistent with other things , then you 've gotta reject that reading ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You con {disfmarker} you conditioned me with your first sentence , and so I thought , \" Why would he walk into the cafe and then somehow break his nose ? \" uh , oh , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "He slipped on the wet floor ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "You don't find that usage , uh {disfmarker} uh , I checked for it in the Brown national corpus ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "The \" walk into it \" never really means , w as in walked smack {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , but , y y if you find \" walked smacked into the cafe \" or \" slammed into the wall \" {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , no , but \" run into \" does ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Because you will find \" run into , \" uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Cars run into telephone poles all the time ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "well , or \" into the cafe \" for that m"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know {disfmarker} \" His car ran into the cafe . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah . Or you can run into an old friend , or run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you can \" run into \" in that sense too ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , \" run into \" might even be more impact sense than , you know , container sense ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh , Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Depends ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {disfmarker} Like , \" run into an old friend \" , it probably needs its own construction . I mean , uh , you know , George would have I 'm sure some exa complicated ex reason why it really was an instance of something else"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "and maybe it is , but , um , there are idioms and my guess is that 's one of them , but , um {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "All contact . I mean , there there 's contact that doesn't {disfmarker} social contact , whatever . I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sudden surprising contact ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Right . i Yeah , it 's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Forceful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "But of course , no , i i I mean it has a life of its own . It 's sort of partially inspired by the spatial {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , this is this motivated {disfmarker} but yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "oh yeah , mo for sure , motivated , but then you can't parse on motivated ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Too bad ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "You should get a T - shirt that says that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there 's lots of things you could make T - shirts out of , but , uh , this has gotten {disfmarker} I mean wh We don't need the words to that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Pro - probably not your marks in the kitchen , today ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ? Oh , no no no no no no no no no , we 're not going there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Not {disfmarker} not your marks ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "In other news ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "anything else you want to ask us about the thesis proposal , you got {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We could look at a particular thing and give you feedback on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well there {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i what would have been really nice is to find an example for all of this , uh , from our domain . So maybe if we w if we can make one up {pause} now , that would be c incredibly helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So , w where it should illustrate"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} wh when you say all this , do you mean , like , I don't know , the related work stuff ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "as well as , mappings ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "w Well we have , for example , a canonical use of something"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right {disfmarker} right {disfmarker} r"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and y it 's , you know , we have some constructions and then it 's construed as something , and then we {disfmarker} we may get the same constructions with a metaphorical use that 's also relevant to the {disfmarker} to the domain ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , f let 's {disfmarker} let 's suppose you use \" in \" and \" on \" . I mean , that 's what you started with ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So \" in the bus \" and \" on the bus , \" um , that 's actually a little tricky in English because to some extent they 're synonyms . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I had two hours w with George on this , so it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , what did he say ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Did you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Join the club ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . Oh , h that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" On the bus \" is a m is a metaphorical metonymy that relates some meta path metaphorically and you 're on {disfmarker} on that path and th w I mean it 's {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} there 's a platform notion ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I believe all that , it 's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "right ? \" he 's on the {disfmarker} standing on the bus waving to me . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But th the regular as we speak \" J Johno was on the bus to New York , \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "um , uh , he 's {disfmarker} that 's , uh , what did I call it here , the transportation schema , something ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "where you can be on the first flight , on the second flight ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can be , you know , on the wagon ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you {disfmarker} what you want to do . I mean you could do something much simpler"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "like \" under the bus , \" or something , where {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} unfortunately , this is not really something a tourist would ever say . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , unless he was repairing it or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "but yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh , but OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So in terms of the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We had {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} initially we 'd {disfmarker} started discussing the \" out of film . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And there 's a lot of \" out of \" analysis , so , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "could we capture that with a different construal of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , it 's a little {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} we 've thought about it before , uh t uh {disfmarker} to use the examples in other papers , and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little complicated . Cuz you 're like , it 's a state of {disfmarker} there 's resource ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out of {disfmarker} out of film , in particular ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right , and like , what is film ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "the state {disfmarker} you know . You 're out of the state of having film , right ? and somehow film is standing for the re the resour the state of having some resource is just labeled as that resource ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I mean ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "yeah , I mean ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's a little bit {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but {disfmarker} and plus the fact that there 's also s I mean , can you say , like , \" The film ran out \" you know , or , maybe you could say something like \" The film is out \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , is film the trajector ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "so like the {disfmarker} the film went away from where it should be , namely with you , or something , right ? You know . The {disfmarker} the film {disfmarker} the film is gone , right ? Um , I never really knew what was going on , I mean I {disfmarker} I find it sort of a little bit farfetched to say that {disfmarker} that \" I 'm out of film \" means that I have left the state of having film or something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's weird . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Or , \" having \" is also , um , associated with location ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "so if the film left , you know {disfmarker} state is being near film ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So running {disfmarker} running out of something is different from being out of somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or being out of something as , uh {disfmarker} as well . So \" running out of it \" definitely has a process aspect to it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mm - hmm . But that 's from run , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "b that 's OK ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} b but the difference"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Is the d the final state of running out of something is being out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . So th"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah . You got there ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "That part is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "You got to out of it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm !"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} so nob so no one has in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} of the , uh , professional linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "they haven't {disfmarker} there was this whole thesis on \" out of \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There was ? Who ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , there {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} or there was a paper on it ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "There was one on {disfmarker} on \" out \" or \" out of \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There was a Well , it may be just \" out \" . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "I think there was \" over \" but there was also a paper on \" out \" ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , Lind - Susan Lindner ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , yeah , you 're right . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "right ? The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} \" the syrup spread out \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah , and all that sort of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "That kind of thing ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . And undoubtably there 's been reams of work about it in cognitive linguistics ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . But anyway . We 're not gonna do that between now and next week ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "It 's not one of the y it 's more straightforward ones {disfmarker} forward ones to defend , so you probably don't want to use it for the purposes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "th these are {disfmarker} you 're addressing like , computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "right . Or {disfmarker} are you ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "There 's gonna be four computational linguists ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . But more emphasis on the computational ? Or emphasis on the linguist ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "computer it 's {disfmarker} More {disfmarker} there 's going to be the {disfmarker} just four computational linguists , by coincidence , but the rest is , whatever , biocomputing people and physicists ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No no no , but not for your talk . I 'm - we 're worrying about the th the thes"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Oh , the thesis !"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I meant this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "it 's just for one guy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's computa should be very computational ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "you know , like {disfmarker} OK . So I would try to {disfmarker} I would stay away from one that involves weird construal stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and , uh , someth"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You know , it 's an obvious one {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Totally weird stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} the old bakery example might be nice ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "\" Is there a bakery around here \" . So if you c we really just construe it as a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Around ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No , it 's the bakery itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "is it a building ? uh , that you want to go to ? or is it something to eat that you want to buy ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , oh yeah . Yeah , we 've thought about that . Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "And then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Nnn . No . What ? \" Bakery \" can't be something you 're gonna eat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No , no . The question is d do you wanna {disfmarker} do you wanna construe {disfmarker} do you wanna constr - strue"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Sh"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It 's a speech - act ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "r Exactly . It 's because do you wanna c do you want to view the bakery as a p a place that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} i for example , if {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . Where you can get baked goods ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well th well , that 's one . You want to buy something . But the other is , uh , yo you might have smelled a smell and are just curious about whether there 'd be a bakery in the neighborhood , or ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "um , pfff you know , you wonder how people here make their living , and {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of reasons why you might be asking about the existence of a bakery"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that doesn't mean , \" I want to buy some baked goods . \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But {vocalsound} um , those are interesting examples but it 's not clear that they 're mainly construal examples ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So it 's a lot of pragmatics , there , that"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "There 's all sorts of stuff going on ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "might be beyond what you want to do ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So let 's {disfmarker} so let 's think about this from the point of view of construal . So let 's first do a {disfmarker} So the metonymy thing is probably the easiest and a and actually the {disfmarker} Though , the one you have isn't quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "You mean the s You mean \" the steak wants to pay \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "N no not that one , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} the sort of background . This is the t uh , page five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "About Plato and the book ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Just beyond that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Onward ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Where is the castle ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "A castle ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "How old is it ? How much does it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "To go in , that 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Two hundred million dollars ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . It 's not for sale . Uh . So"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah , I think that 's a good example , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , that 's good . u"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But as Nancy just su suggested it 's probably ellipticus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ellipsis ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like , \" it \" doesn't refer to \" thing , \" it refers to acti you know , j thing standing for activ most relevant activity for a tourist {disfmarker} you could think of it that way , but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Well , shoot , isn't that {disfmarker} I mean , that 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I mean , my argument here is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's the same thing as \" Plato 's on the top shelf , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "figuring that out is what this is about ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , yeah , no , I I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I 'm con you know , th that you can refer to a book of Plato by using \" Plato , \""}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . No no , I {disfmarker} I 'm agreeing that this is a good , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and you can refer back to it , and so you can {disfmarker} Castles have {disfmarker} as tourist sites , have admission fees , so you can say \" Where is the castle , how much does it cost ? \" Um . \" How far is it from here ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , You 're also not referring to the width of the object , or so ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "www ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK . Can we think of a nice metaphorical use of \" where \" in the tourist 's domain ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So you know it 's {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can sometimes use \" where \" f for \" when \""}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "in the sense of , you know , um , where {disfmarker} wh where {disfmarker} where was , um , \" where was Heidelberg , um , in the Thirty Years ' War ? \" Or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , or some such thing . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Like what side were they on ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Essentially , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "OK . I was like , \" Huh ? It was here . \" Like {disfmarker} {comment} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But anyway th so there are {disfmarker} there are cases like that . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Ah ! Or like its developmental state or something like that , you could {disfmarker} I guess you could get that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I mean , there 's also things like {disfmarker} I mean , s um , I guess I could ask something like \" Where can I find out about blah - blah - blah \" in a sort of {disfmarker} doesn't nece I don't necessarily have to care about the spatial location , just give me a phone number"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . There certainly is that , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "and I 'll call them or something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know , \" Where could I learn its opening hours , \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But that 's not metaphorical ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It 's another {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "So we 're thinking about , um , or we could also think about , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "How about \" I 'm in a hurry \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "State ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "It i But it 's a state {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the issue is , is that {disfmarker} it may be just a usage ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "you know , that it 's not particularly metaphorical , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right . So you want a more exotic one {disfmarker} version of that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "I 'm really into {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah ! How about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , \" I 'm in {disfmarker} I 'm in a state of exhaustion \" ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Do you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "or something like that , which a tourist w Huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Would you really say that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "A st uh , well , you can certainly say , um , you know , \" I 'm in overload . \" Tu - stur tourists will often say that ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I I 'm really into art ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah , I was gonna say , like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Oh , you can do that ? Really ? Of course that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's definitely a , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Fixed ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "A fixed expression , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "that 's a , uh {disfmarker} Right . But . {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "There 're too {disfmarker} there 're all sorts of fixed expressions I don't {disfmarker} like uh \" I 'm out of sorts now ! \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Like {comment} \" I 'm in trouble ! \""}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Well I {disfmarker} when , uh {disfmarker} just f u the data that I 've looked at so far that rec"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean , there 's tons of cases for polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , you know , mak re making reference to buildings as institutions , as containers , as build"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "you know , whatever . Um , so ib in mus for example , in museums , you know , as a building or as something where pictures hang versus , you know , ev something that puts on exhibits , so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . As an institution ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Why don't you want to use any of those ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "So y you don't wanna use one that 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , well {disfmarker} No , but this {disfmarker} that 's what I have , you know , started doing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "The castle {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that old castle one is sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Metonymy , polysemy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "I love Van Gogh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "\" I wanna go see the Van Gogh . \""}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Ah !"}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "Oh geez ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Anyway , I 'm sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I think the argument should be {disfmarker} uh , can be made that , you know , despite the fact that this is not the most met metaphorical domain , because people interacting with HTI systems try to be straightforward and less lyrical ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "construal still is , uh , you know , completely , um , key in terms of finding out any of these things , so , um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a reasonable point , that it {disfmarker} in this domain you 're gonna get less metaphor and more metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} I looked {disfmarker} with a student I looked at the entire database that we have on Heidelberg for cases of metonymy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "And polysemy , and stuff like that . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Hardly anything . So not even in descriptions w did we find anything , um , relevant ."}, {"speaker": "Grad F", "content": "I have to go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Alright . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But OK this is just something we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see , um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right . s See you ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "and deal with ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "OK , well . I guess if anybody has additional suggestions ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "I mean maybe the \" where is something \" question as a whole , you know , can be construed as , u i locational versus instructional request ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "w Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , if we 're not talk about the lexic"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Location versus what ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "instruction ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Instruction . Oh , directions ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , I thought that was {disfmarker} definitely treated as an example of construal ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah but then you 're not on the lexical level , that 's sort of one level higher ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Oh , you want a lexical example ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "But I don't need it ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Well , you might want both ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Also it would be nice to get {disfmarker} ultimately to get a nice mental space example ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "We {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "so , even temporal references are {disfmarker} just in the spatial domain are rare ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "But it 's {disfmarker} it 's easy to make up plausible ones ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "When {disfmarker} when you 're getting information on objects ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "You know ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "So , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Right , you know {disfmarker} you know , where r Yeah . What color was this in {disfmarker} in in the nain nineteenth century ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "What was this p instead of {disfmarker} wh what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} how was this painted , what color was this painted , um , was this alleyway open ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can include that also in our second , uh , data run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Grad C", "content": "We c we can show people pictures of objects and then have then ask the system about the objects and engage in conversation on the history and the art and the architecture and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Professor E", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . So why don't we plan to give you feedback electronically . Wish you a good trip . All success ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "For some reason when you said \" feedback electronically \" I thought of that {disfmarker} you ever see the Simpsons where they 're {disfmarker} like the family 's got the buzzers and they buzz each other when they don't like what the other one is saying ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Yeah . That 's the {disfmarker} first one , I think . The very very first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad D", "content": "It was a very early one . I don't know if it 's the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Grad A", "content": "Mmm . Mmm ."}], "query": "What was said about the talk and neurons?", "answer": "As the talk at EML will also refer to a theoretical framework, it was suggested that along with presenting NTL and the piece on mirror neurons, it also alludes to relevant fMRI work. The neural side of the research could be of interest to various groups. The language analysis itself will be introduced in terms of image schemas. On the other hand, it was arranged for more feedback on the thesis proposal to be sent by email. The latest version of the construction formalism will also be needed to complete the presentation."}, {"id": 186, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was about conceptual design. The user interface designer first introduced three concepts in the user interface - Google controller, fancy controller, and intelligent controller. The first two were approved by the project manager, but the last one was seriously questioned. The group finally decided to mix the Google controller and fancy controller with some simple vocal commands. The discussion about product industrial design covered three aspects \u2014material, alimentation, and chip. The industrial designer suggested using wood and having buttons with LCD, applying the classical battery and solar energy alimentation, and using low level chips, which was agreed by the group. The marketing expert gave three points from the market analysis. Users would like to have a fancy look and feel and the product should be technologically innovative. At the same time, being user-friendly was also important. Then the group discussed how to make these requirements into practice."}, {"id": 187, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the user interface design.", "answer": "The user interface designer introduced three concepts in the user interface - Google controller, fancy controller, and intelligent controller. The three meant that the product would be simple but powerful, attractive and recognizable, and loaded with speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology. The first two were approved by the project manager, but the last one was seriously questioned. After a lot of discussions, the group finally decided to mix the Google controller and fancy controller with some simple vocal commands."}, {"id": 188, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Why did the user interface designer propose the concept of intelligent controller?", "answer": "The user interface designer believed a controller with speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology would be convenient when you couldn't find it. More importantly, although the feature was not one hundred percent reliable, it was a feature to distinguish the new product from traditional ones. And there's not enough motivation for users to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller."}, {"id": 189, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Why did the project manager disapprove of the concept of intelligent controller?", "answer": "The project manager put forward that the speech recognition wouldn't work when several persons wanted to change the channel at the same time, and the cost would surely rise if adding the two technologies. In response to that, the user interface designer said they would just cooperate with some research institute and the vocabulary was limited, so it wouldn't cost much. Then the project manager posed the language problem. The user interface designer answered they would have some language adaptations so the product could be used by people from all countries. Finally, there were still problems with the microphone and camera that were necessary for the two technologies."}, {"id": 190, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about product industrial design.", "answer": "The discussion about product industrial design covered three aspects \u2014material, alimentation, and chip. The industrial designer suggested using wood instead of plastic to make the controller more fashionable and having buttons with LCD so that people could see the controller in dark. In terms of the alimentation, it would be good to have both the classical battery and solar energy alimentation. Considering that the product was supposed to be easy to use, the industrial designer thought some low level chip would be enough, which was agreed by the group."}, {"id": 191, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Why did the group decide to use both the classical battery and solar energy alimentation when discussing the industrial design?", "answer": "With the solar energy alimentation, people in remote areas could recharge the controller more conveniently. Plus, it might attract some ecologists to purchase. Although the design would increase the production cost, it would be added value that can be compensated."}, {"id": 192, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What was the decision of discussion about the material when talking about industrial design?", "answer": "The group decided to use wood partly instead of plastic because they wanted to put fashion in electronics and wood was a good option. By contrast, the plastic material was more common, impersonal, and not so high class as wood."}, {"id": 193, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about user requirements.", "answer": "The marketing expert gave three points from the market analysis. Users would like to have a fancy look and feel rather than a functional one. Apart from that, they still wanted the product to be technologically innovative. At the same time, being user-friendly was also important. Then the group discussed how to make these requirements into practice."}, {"id": 194, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What did the marketing recommend to do when discussing the problem of fashion?", "answer": "That year everything from clothes to shoes and furniture was inspired by fruits and vegetables so the marketing suggested taking that into account. The marketing also mentioned that people wanted a spongy touch which meant the product might be partly wooden and partly rubber-made."}, {"id": 195, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So let's start our second me meeting on {vocalsound} conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "as the previous meeting I will be the secretary"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we will have three presentations and we'll have to decide on the remote control concept and finally we'll close the decision . So I will first uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y you do the minutes first , or ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I think I will let uh our User Interface Designer speak first , Mister David Jordan ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , we'll {disfmarker} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "technical accessoire ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So uh first I will present the concept of user interface . Um there's three concepts in the user interface . So first one it's a Google controller . The second is a fancy controller . The last one is uh intelligent controller . So there are three concepts in our controller . Um n next I will explain one by one , the first is Google controller . Um , so I want the controller to be easy to use , but with sophisticated functions . So it's a combination of easy to use and um sophisticated functions . Uh this is a first concept of our controller . The second concept is a fancy controller , um so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive , um they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products , so so the u the user f the the u user interface should be very very cute , very very g um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A nice one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "attractive . Such like this , there are several uh examples in the slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm not sure the one in the middle {vocalsound} is very attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's very , you know"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very big ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if you're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's hard f i it's easy for you to remember it . {vocalsound} Or to recognise it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We'll have big discussion I suppose after that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the last uh concept is intelligent . We want uh we want our controller to be smart ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so maybe we should uh use um uh technology , such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology , so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and um gesture recognition . Um With this advanced features we {disfmarker} I think we can attract a lot of user ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Something else ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . No . There {disfmarker} this is the three concepts of our controller ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I just have one question , because for the intelligent controller , {vocalsound} you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but as the um expert told us , most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels . Do you think they will be able to use gestures ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because , if they do all the time the same gesture , as you said previously in the last meeting , maybe they will get injuries because of that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five , I think they will be bored after a while . You don't think so ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I think some time it's very uh convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For example , if you cannot find your uh {vocalsound} controller , you can just uh {vocalsound} just just uh speak something such as , yeah , one two ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , {vocalsound} that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good point , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you got a cold . You have a mute remote controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can use your gesture . That's no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but how how is {disfmarker} how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Broken arm ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but suppose you have a family watching T_V_ , and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time , do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But this this {disfmarker} but this would never happen anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , they cannot speak at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you have one brother and one sister"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and they want to watch their favourite uh T_V_ programme ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah but {vocalsound} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very interesting . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you have the remote control , so maybe you can keep it f with you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} That's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You're not you're not obliged to share it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , okay , you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we can {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's the advantage of intelligent controller . Even you h you have the controller , I can {vocalsound} I can say channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} it's {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so it's c come to channel three ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but this is disadvant disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I don't have to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's a disadvantage ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's advantage ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but one other question ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "manual controllers , eh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how much will it cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , more expensive maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How much ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we we d we we just are use um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Some some efficient ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh if you if if you use the basic {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no we just um have some cooperation with some research institute , we don't have to do some basic research on this field ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think it won't cost an {disfmarker} Not a lot for us ? Or ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} because uh this technology is uh um for limited wor or limited wor uh lexical recognition , it's very {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's uh {disfmarker} yeah . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's it's changing how the remote control is gonna be built . Because then you need uh {disfmarker} I mean this doesn't have uh the power to do recognition , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y y you have also the language problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No it's uh {disfmarker} Even for the f um because the the vocabulary {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you know when you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Cause it it have to be universal ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I agree with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The vocabulary is very small , so that's not a problem ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but there is one problem that uh Baba talked about is the international"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "remote control . We need something that is international . Suppose we're {disfmarker} we want to sell it in France ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The recognition system will be able to understand French . If you want to go to England , it will be able to understand English ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the key , the key um the key of our {disfmarker} the key feature of our controller is that it's it has some some um adaptation"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , this could be downloaded by the web maybe , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but you know . The product {disfmarker} The pro"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "mechanism . It's It's it means when you when you sell this controller in China it's can recognise Chinese . It's r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's a very smart , it's a very smart controller maybe {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Because of this product uh this technology has already been developed ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but how will you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller , you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world , the same one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you have the language , you have to develop for each country ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh n Yeah , yeah tha that's why we have to do language adaptation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but for each country you have to do one ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because uh the for example for Se {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d yeah we would we have to do adaptation to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh really ? {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be quite complex ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but then w Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Comple"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , it's not so complex {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we have to take care of the twelve Euros"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about voice recognition , do we have microphones ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "problem ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where will be they ? Do you think if we're far from television it will work ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no it's not {disfmarker} I think that's n that's not a problem because you you don't have to wear a microphone . It it just {disfmarker} the microphone is embedded in the controller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where is the controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's in your family , in your home . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , but then it's it's like this uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "here it's uh an object . But here you say you want to use i uh s technology ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah you can you can embed it uh microphone here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "A microphone maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this , if you have an object . If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free , without any object ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To talk to the to the T_V_ maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You just want to interact with television ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah just {disfmarker} you just put the controller here , then you"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I if you say one , he switch to channel ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you use your command"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you do s your gesture ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you can lose it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no it's n y {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you lose it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the T_V_ to switch to channel one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay you {disfmarker} so you can build a kind of black box"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Devic"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and put it on T_V_ and just to recognize gestures and voice ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah but so you need a camera and you know a microphone {vocalsound} inside your remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you would still have the buttons . Or is it {disfmarker} do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "think it {disfmarker} we should give the uh flexibility to the user and we think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can see {disfmarker} they can switch form one modality to another ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . It's a bit risky risky ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And maybe it will be quite {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's quite inter quite attractive ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think that , you know , switching from one country to to another will be a problem , so {disfmarker} although y y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , if you do language adaptation , there should be no problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but i i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should have confidence in technology . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , we should . {vocalsound} Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . So , what do you think ? We'll try the controllers you'd prefer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which kind of controller would you prefer to use , you as a remote control user ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If if {disfmarker} I mean , uh I'm sure if the user pays the same price , he's happy to have recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But if if if it like doubles uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think he need a control that is very reliable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no one would would be interested ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller . Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just want to have something {disfmarker} controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller , easy to use , sophisticated and fancy . You think it's possible ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah but if if you stick to um {disfmarker} stick to the first two parts . So what's the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There's no k features of our controller , so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not really the {disfmarker} we"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet , so {disfmarker} or something like that . But uh I think a user need {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , you y that's a fun that's not the function of the controller , that's a function of T_V_ . You can replace your T_V_ with a new T_V_ with internet browsing function ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but you need you need new remote controller then . Because if you wanna browse internet or , I don't know , if you wanna type something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Don't have a {disfmarker} the the {disfmarker} Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if we can send email from it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it's not the {disfmarker} only the problem {disfmarker} only the issue of controller , it's it's also the issue of the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cause for example {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but we do we do we we we cannot rely one hundred percent on these features to u to use the controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but uh we want so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it , your mobile , but you when you choose a new mobile , you choose the one with voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you wou you would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the feature is not one hundred percent reliable , but it's a feature to distinguish our product from our {disfmarker} from other products ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but w we we want something th that works all the time , every day , every hour , for everyone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And for all the person of the family maybe ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't need to tune it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if if if if you're if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable , would you replace it with another one ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ? If it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , for example the goo y"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because you have new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you say we would we would to have a Google-like controller ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google . Google is {vocalsound} is simple , works fine ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic , simple and works fine , it's already a lot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Oh yes , but there's no big difference between the traditional controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh thi this {disfmarker} I mean , the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The {disfmarker} then nn"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if he has something that works fine and is really {vocalsound} fancy , looks nice and it's easy easy to use , easy to use ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Tha"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Not too expensive too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But the there's there's n there's n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "See {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's the same {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's the problem ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah . I mean , I I know it's more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Ye {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But you have to think , the user is the one who gonna buy the product"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's go to the Industrial Designer ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe we'll be able to take a decision after that , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , participant two um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Working ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , working design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Can you go to the {vocalsound} next one ? I uh {disfmarker} it's not this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's uh oth the oth {vocalsound} so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the working design . Sorry . {vocalsound} Component design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So this yeah {disfmarker} so this is the described use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What ? Are you inst"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I think there's something wrong with your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It did didn't r receive it . Didn't receive it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you you record it somewhere else ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Participant one . Participant one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Interface concept . No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Maybe I record recorded directly on the {disfmarker} Computer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound} Nope . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It seems that we have a problem with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno if you remember what you had to say or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I can say it to you without ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe we can first come to"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , I think it will be more interesting to start with uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh to Frahan . With Frahan , then you can prepare your slides ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's more interesting what he says ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then present it later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "exac"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You will had s some more information in {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it will be interesting after your presentation to have um Baba's presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact , I don't know ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I s because i in my presentation I don't have here with {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , never mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker} It was in fact the design use to show you the design of what is inside a what is inside and what are the different component of the r"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "of the remote control . So it will be interesting so I could show you some some picture of what is inside"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so . So I {disfmarker} in fact the the {disfmarker} f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so will {disfmarker} it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one . So and {vocalsound} in which which which kind will be the the different bu button ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so it can be some , you know , classic pushbutton like this one , or you have also some button like L_C_D_ where you know , the button the buttons are unlighted during the night ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or , you know , you can see them in the darkness ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation , electric alimentation do you want to have , so will it be for example uh d uh solar energy alimentation"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or will it be a battery like the classical battery so . And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have uh both of them , so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from , you know , the cities uh for example in some place in in S Senegal , so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation , you just , when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker} so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it , for example ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think it's an added value to the remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and maybe it can attract all the ecological k yeah consumers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ecologists , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and but about the the price of adding this solar battery , would it be something really that will increase the price of production more ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alrigh In fact , having them both will {disfmarker} if we want to have battery , regular battery and and {vocalsound} the solar energy battery it could be {disfmarker} it'll it will add a little bit of the price ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it will be an added value also that will be compensated ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what tha what about the uh materials ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And the materials , it depends for example you {disfmarker} if you have a wooden material it can be more {disfmarker} the plastic material is more common"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Impersonal , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's very resistant but , you know , something wooden will be like , I don't know high cl so a special high class ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Special for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or you know , you can have some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and i if you {disfmarker} we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , even if it is not completely wood , but just a part of the , you know , will be wooden , in wood"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it can be interesting ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm okay , seems to be interesting , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits , chips , or do you have low level or or very very expensive , it depends , but I think that low level will be , you know , it is an interim module ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we want something easy to use and {disfmarker} so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you think that we will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think it will fit on the price we want , twel twelve Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what about the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the buttons I pr I prefer , you know , the L_C_D_ you know {vocalsound} lighted buttons because , you know , it's {disfmarker} I don't know {vocalsound} um yeah , in the dark , it's fashion"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's fashion , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's related to how beautiful it is or uh if you want to watch T_V_ in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost , you know in the darkness it's very easy so , right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example . It's it's expensive I I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think a touch screen {vocalsound} will be t as expensive as the L_C_D_ buttons so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} And it is a kind of other design , I mean . It can also be interesting to have this kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got email ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound} I think we have only {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh five minutes left ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Participant four ? Functional requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh no , trend watching . {vocalsound} The other one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Uh , I think so , just {disfmarker} Yeah , so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of um have a better overview of what's the fashion in general I've checked more than only the remote control market , so next ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So again , it's pretty much similar to what I've said in the previous meeting . Um user really really want a fancy look and feel . They're not so so interested in uh functional look and feel , okay . Like the one you've shown , David , with all the buttons and {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} i i it sounds good technically"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but it's it's not what they want and uh {disfmarker} So , second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative , so maybe it's sort of related to what you've said with the speech recognition and so on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "At the same time , it's important that it's easy to use . So that were the three first points from the remote control uh analysis ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now i if we look at fashion in general um {disfmarker} Okay . Wha what we really see this year is that uh everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay , so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause it's it's really what people want . Even if it's in general fashion , we want it to be in the remote control . And then uh if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points , fancy look and feel has , on a score of seven would have six as importance . Uh the remote control has to be technologically innovative , it's three . Then easy to use uh it's not so important actually with respect to other y other ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one , and then if we combine this with the fashion uh from Milan and Paris"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And fruit and vegetables yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we go to the fruits and vede vegetables . And the other point I haven't mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Spongy {vocalsound} 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay so this is this maybe doesn't really fit with the wooden design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah thi this is this would be like um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Pla S"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "plastic-like , but rubber , mayb maybe , you know , rubber-like uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very stuff {disfmarker} Okay , rubber rubber desi okay , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "device , so um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , tha tha that was the main point , I think , from the trend in fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to take decisions about the component concepts , about the energy . So , {vocalsound} as you say you want something technologically innovative , maybe using solar energy and {disfmarker} with battery would be something interesting ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , so when I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe will attract"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It will be a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pro-ecology consumers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh cheap imprint so you s you propose low level chips would be uh enough to have something working well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Later ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you think {gap} case . Something spongy . {vocalsound} Someth no wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} No wood but {disfmarker} Plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe not no wood , but I mean ma maybe not the part you touching you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Would some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pla"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think we can have wood for example in the bottom and , you know . It depends on the design we want ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , maybe the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's it's natural ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But still y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Th The feeling is natural ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's natural"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so maybe we can stay with wood ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And it can be correlated to energy , solar energy , so for the marketing aspect , you know , saying that it's ecol"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean it's not exactly right for the spongy point of view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm , yeah , it's not right , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's still fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we could maybe have both like part of wood and some rubber for the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "something that you can {vocalsound} into it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh and what about the user interface concept ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Google and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Google and fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and fancy , f how about the the voice ? {vocalsound} And {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because I think that with the voice and gesture recognition there are still some disadvantages with this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh maybe we can do some marketing studies asking people if they're interested"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It It is an an interesting concept to see {disfmarker} to have uh voice control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The smart controller . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker} and the problem is I I'm we can infer i if you have v voice control why not to put it directly on the the T_V_ , so speak directly to the T_V_ and you don't need a remote control actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but you need a receiver to recognize the gestures and the voice ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it will be embedded on the T_V_ and not on the remote control , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker} d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we'll just focus on the Google controller plus the fancy controller ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe try to mix them these two concepts together , just in one and do a remote control with solar energy and batteries and with lev low level chips and wood ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . It's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And L_C_D_ buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think for these supplements the solar energy would be something quite interesting and not maybe too difficult to add ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . And pf what can we think a supplement to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What interface ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for the interface something {disfmarker} added value ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the supplement can be the voice {vocalsound} . It is just , you know , it is not the most important , but it can be a part of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With a module ? You mean the remote control with a mur module if you want you can just use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "commands , words and use them when you don't want to use your fingers ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To push button , yeah , yeah . Even it is for s just some kids , you know , switching channels one two three four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Turning the T_V_ o on o or off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , turning {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Not very complex commands , but easy commands ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "adding some vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Simple ones ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , simple ones for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} So the next meeting will start in thirty meeti minutes {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} we'll {disfmarker} you will all have to work in in your direction . So you will have to work on the look and feel design , to have the easy to use , powerful and fancy remote control with some added value such as the uh simple vocal commands recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh you will have to work more , Baba , on the um spongy way to to add spongy um touch to the buttons {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} expensive buttons {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah , to make some new {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and try to find maybe a nice shape for the wooden remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And I sup I think we'll have to evaluate th the product too ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , no not forgetting about the fruits and vegetables trends ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If possible ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And remember as as I said last meeting , we really have to build a fashion remote control and uh the colour of the um the society will be really {disfmarker} it will be seen in the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Need it to be , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you will have {disfmarker} Baba and David Jordan you will have to work together on the prototype and you will have next time to show us um modelling a cl a clay remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you will have to model model something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I think that some specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no more questions , we can close the session ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sounds good , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay , cool ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}], "query": "What was the decision of the discussion about fulfilling user requirements?", "answer": "To meet the requirements of being fashionable and spongy, the group decided to use wood and rubber to make the controller. Maybe the part that users touched, such as the buttons, would be rubber, and the rest would be wooden, which would feel natural."}, {"id": 196, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was about the functional design of the remote control. Firstly, Marketing gave a presentation on the remote control market trend and suggested a fancy look as well as technology innovation features. Secondly, User Interface presented on technical function design and recommended changeable fonts on remote buttons and a modern look with a handheld shape. Thirdly, Industrial Designer presented on component design and suggested a soft material case with flashy colors and transparent buttons. Industrial Designer thought the normal infrared LED should be sufficient. Lastly, the group discussed the remote's features and they decided to have features including normal battery, scroll wheel, round shape, and speech recognition."}, {"id": 197, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "Summarize the presentation on the market trend.", "answer": "Marketing gave the presentation on the remote control market. Marketing suggested that the first most important aspect of remote controls should be with a fancy look and feel instead of the current functional look and feel. And the second most important aspect was that a remote control should be technologically innovative. Lastly, Marketing suggested the spongy material and colour fronts."}, {"id": 198, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "What did Marketing think of making spongy remote when presenting the market trend?", "answer": "When User Interface asked the group how to make the spongy remote, Marketing thought about changeable fronts and some basic colour fronts because a fancy look was the most important thing for remote control. So they could make five different fronts to start with. Marketing also mentioned that it could be round, different from a normal remote control."}, {"id": 199, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "What did User Interface recommend to do when discussing the technology innovation and why?", "answer": "User Interface recommended the speech recognition when Marketing asked how to do with technological innovation because User Interface knew from the technology department that they had done research about it and recommended using speech. And User Interface would also check with the technology department on how to do that."}, {"id": 200, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about remote control features.", "answer": "The group decided to have the normal batteries, the scroll wheel with rubber buttons together with back-lights, the beeping of the home station, the round shape as well as the speech recognition with an advanced chip. And they would skip the LCD because they would need the most expensive chip if they used an LCD."}, {"id": 201, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "What did Project Manager think of the shape of the remote when discussing the remote and the recharger contact?", "answer": "Marketing and User Interface suggested the group could choose the shape of the remote either like an iPod square or a more innovative round shape. Project Manager thought they should choose a round shape with rounded corners, instead of looking like an iPod so that would be more innovative."}, {"id": 202, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bonjour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It won't wake up . Yeah . I was a bit early . Like {disfmarker} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I just came in . Uh normally I was one of them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hello ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Check check check check ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oop ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Why won't it wake up ? Is it on ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The power light doesn't work . You turned it off ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But how ? Ah , there it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I received an email with uh a few possibilities on uh the materials . So I'll discuss them with you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we're just going to the {gap} later ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I received an email as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we're going to talk about the conceptual model ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which one was mine ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So that's me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh okay . So {disfmarker} Uh okay . Okay , so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes , minute . {gap} What's it called , I dunno . Whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The minutes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we just talked about uh {disfmarker} Oh you want me to show that there or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "just tell us ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we just talked about it looks . Has to look nice . Usability is very important . People don't want to spend money on something that's similar to cheaper ones . Um {disfmarker} It has to be very basic , not too many buttons . Light switches on if you use a button . Uh text T_V_ still has to be a possibility . And it has to be easy to learn . That were the things I uh make minutes of . And the functions are volume , channel to choose channels , an on-off , a mute uh button , and a text T_V_ button . That are the functions . That right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I just want to give you uh Mike again , the first uh presentation of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I start ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound} No . Okay well {disfmarker} I received an email {disfmarker} Okay . I searched the web , uh and uh I searched uh on this d document , recent investigation of the remote control market . It has been done in Italy uh Italy and in uh another country in Europe , I forget it . Uh but uh they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy look-and-feel , instead of the current functional look and feel . So it's very important for us to create something new . So what Michael just said , it must be uh some very different from ordinary uh remote controls . Fancy stands for an original look-and-feel of the case and interface . Uh this uh aspect is the most important one . Uh it came out of the research . It uh is twice important as the following . {vocalsound} The second uh most important aspect is that a remote control should it uh technological innovative . Uh that stands for uh uh new technical uh features . And then uh that uh {disfmarker} This is a point of discussion , because we just decided that we don't make use of uh L_C_D_ or uh speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But um {vocalsound} this is the second uh important uh aspect , and I think uh we must use some of the new technology , to be uh innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But we already have the flashing flashing light on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh maybe maybe something new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We have to discuss about it s uh {disfmarker} Okay , uh {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I'll I'll get back on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "features not uh do not exist in current remote controls . And that's very hard I think . Uh the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use . But uh that was an overall uh point . We already discussed that . Um I've got one picture . Uh d our our target group uh we thought about was young and trendy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So I took uh that part of the webpage . And it says uh fashion-watchers of uh uh Pari {vocalsound} uh France and uh Italy , yeah , uh have detected the following trends . This trends I th uh trend I think it's not um that meaningful for us , maybe . But it's about uh clothes and shoes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the uh the next uh aspect also in contrast to last year , the feel of material is expe uh uh is expected to be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But spongy , what what does spongy says ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Spongy , like sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Spongy . Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So rubber , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh soft materials ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe th that's al definitely a good idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've you're you drop y your remote control very often on the ground . So it has to be {vocalsound} flexible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it's something that uh it stand there . But I didn't knew uh knew what it means . So spongy means y Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's like a sponge ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Soft , sponge ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's also a stress-ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's a good {disfmarker} That's a good idea . If it's de like that . That's good , a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , somewhat like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it a bit like like the the the the {gap} remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How are you gonna make it ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "R_ soft ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I've some uh material uh information , but I'll give you it later in my presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What do I think ? Uh because a fancy look is the most important thing uh for remote control uh control , I think about changeable fronts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh maybe a see-through one in a a fruit front . Because it's uh it's hot ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh some basic uh colour fronts . {vocalsound} Uh so we can make uh five different fronts to start with or something . Uh maybe an extraordinary shape , like a sponge . {vocalsound} Uh or uh , yeah , just another shape than a normal uh remote control ha uh has ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just uh something round in it , or uh maybe not uh not uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I dun dunno . We have to discuss about that . Uh y yeah . Main point uh still uh is the technolo technological innovative . Yeah , how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'll get back on that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's very uh difficult to to to do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Intro"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because it's only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's the problem . That's the main problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I got f also an email from the the technology department ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker} Maybe we watch the first uh the next two presentations ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They have done uh research about it , and uh even more possibilities now with speech . So they recommended using it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll check what they exact mean ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh let's first watch Paul's presentation first then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , well actually we have don't have an idea how much it's gonna cost . But maybe it's cheap"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it's easy to implement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "th that's the only problem . I d They don't say how much it will cost , so {disfmarker} Um but uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "if we implement uh speech recognition , I think it would be better to implement L_C_D_ as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . It's mass production . So you can say , you can {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Since you have to uh configure speech thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's definitely more expensive than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's that's something I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But how uh we we're gonna make many of those . So we can start a mass production , and then the cost will still will be {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but a telephone {gap} {disfmarker} Okay , yeah . But a telephone also have a L_C_D_ and and it's about t two hundred Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so uh we gotta de"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to decide on that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Okay . That was this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh I got an email uh {disfmarker} And it says uh the chip can be uh simple , regular or advanced . And {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} They say uh a display requires an advanced chip . And this is more expensive than all the other chips . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "L_D_C_ doesn't require {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's m the most expensive . Yeah , it says in the email . The display requires an advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . And speech recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , probably too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced {gap} . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I haven't got anything about speech recognition , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll I'll give you my design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well it d That's that's the most expensive chip , we need . If we're doing uh if we're doing a display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well we can {disfmarker} I had uh to make a sort of a design . So I did some searching on the internet . I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como uh remote controls . I think we should um {disfmarker} This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment . I think we should go more to the iPod and M_P_ three players . Mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just modern modern but still uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More modern . Y yes . Um you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller . 'Cause remote con control , you can see it here , you have to bo reach both out {disfmarker} both sides . And here you just have one , few buttons . So that's that's the main difference . But looks uh I definitely think we should go like this . And then changeable fonts , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's the most important part , I think . But {disfmarker} And the home base is something like that , something simple . Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit . Uh basic buttons . On-off , mute . And th maybe two others , I dunno . Text buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe the teletext tel"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , text button , maybe there and there . And then the colour buttons , if we want it on . I don't find it very usable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I don't uh {disfmarker} I don't like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think it's fits in the the modern theme as well . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and then yeah we saw the the pla display , in the the iPod . They can put the basic buttons , one , two , three , four . And uh f above ten . {vocalsound} And I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it {disfmarker} That's on on the display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no . That th there is no display there . But it's on the place of the display . And I think we should uh light this up much more than that part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the focus is on these two parts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you don't see all the buttons you else need ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But it sounds very difficult to use . Because um the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh well um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can't use your thumb for it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is how it is now . Um {disfmarker} Here uh {disfmarker} Well we have volume ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it is on uh on the bottom too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "down there . But it's not not the best best ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well here we have also side scrolls . I dunno if we can use that . Do we want to use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , for volume . For volume , or a channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I've I've got something of that uh too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , why not ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For volume ? Well then we can even simplify it more ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Scroll ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "By just putting the volume on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the channels as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And and just channel buttons here ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But I think uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , or uh maybe uh {disfmarker} The channel buttons are often used . And you can't use them now with your thumb , because the thing is not , it's not easy to control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well . Yeah , well it's {disfmarker} Basically it's it's here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay , m maybe we cho should put that on top , and buttons we we don't use on , in the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's better ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're on top ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , just th th th other buttons like text T_V_ . Put that on the button bottom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh you can't hold it . You can't hold it th the control and push the buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You mean uh these to the low ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah . Except from the on-off button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh okay . Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think w you'll use uh the switch channels buttons uh more often than the normal uh channel buttons , like one two three . So maybe we can put that on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} Maybe . I dunno , but yeah we'll {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like zapping is just switching one channel at a time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe it's not easy if it's below . It's harder to zap . So I think uh it should be should be easy to {gap} . I think it's pretty standard , these rubber buttons on the top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh if you don't light 'em up , they don't uh {vocalsound} you don't see 'em very good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's good , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I think it's modern to light this area up , and to light this area up . So the focus gets on these parts and not on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh the position of course can be different . It's s We have to look uh what's easy to use , and how it's easier to use ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can uh switch these to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno if it l will look good , if you put those on t on the bottom half ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , I think th the the top buttons are okay . They sh Those should be on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh we we can switch those two ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh , yeah , you have to make sure it's easy to uh {disfmarker} Yes , it has to be big enough so you can hold it , right . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's that's my findings . So uh my personal opinion is that we should go more modern look . M_P_ three player . And uh well um if we want to put in speech rec recognition or something , we {disfmarker} I don't think we should put it on top then . I think that , if we're gonna put in more technology , that you need to be able to uh switch it open ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "To use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you put in uh speech recognition , you need so more uh many more buttons . Which won't look good on the front side I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's something we have to decide on ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have to keep it simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to decide this this lecture , or this this this uh fifty minutes , yeah , how it is gonna look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . What we're gonna do . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , the component design . I looked at uh some similar devices , and uh my own common knowledge . So uh this was on the web site . If you aim at a young public , you should use materials that are soft with primary colours like green , blue , red . So flashy kinda colours . Uh shapes should be curved , so round shapes . Not {disfmarker} Nothing square-like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker} Hmm , okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah well uh iPod is trendy . And it is well curved {gap} square ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Square . Like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but mm is uh has round corners I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So not {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we shouldn't have too square corners and that kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Not uh the old uh box look ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . And um sports and gaming device style characteristics . I don't know exactly what that means , but it should be , well yeah , popular kind of"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to put our Real Reaction logo as well on the on the {vocalsound} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "looking , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the colours also ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have ha to ma make it in black , black , yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Black yellow control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the sides in yellow and the the the top in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , mm n Not that weird , because we definitely want to make it kind of flashy , to attract a young public ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} I don't think the the colours black and yellow go well together . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We make i Maybe you can put yellow on the side and black on the on the front ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , okay . That's a that's a sen That's just a matter of tastes , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We have to use uh kind of flashy colours , I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh can't we use um different uh fron uh fronts , with all with the the logo on it ? Can we do that ? So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , it's cool . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Like fronts in in red and yellow and blue"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And still trans"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Still still transparent ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But with all with logo on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well this is a remote control , a very old one . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the components . The case has just a {disfmarker} Here's black ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we make it som Maybe we have to make it from soft material . Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe . But anyways uh it should be transparent . We decided that , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well one of the options ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can {disfmarker} Just like a mobile phone , you can make um different fronts on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can just replace them I think . That was the idea ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just uh release one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Just give five with them , just in a box . {vocalsound} Five different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker} Or just uh sell different ones ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but y you could you could make 'em uh uh like blue and transparent ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you can still th look through it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um the buttons . Normal rubber I think . Like normal ordinary buttons . Soft ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it could be like a Nokia , like {gap} plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A more {disfmarker} Yeah , just uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's better prob"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With the hard hard buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think uh rubber really has an odd look ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . The the the new uh new modern uh remote controls , uh the buttons are part of the {vocalsound} uh the style , I think is part of the remote control itself ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it's one uh a one uh out of one shape . Uh it's n doesn't {disfmarker} Is {vocalsound} uh a button uh um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do you say it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's it's all on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It it didn't it i it don't come out of the {vocalsound} on the background ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , on one level ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It is in uh the c a remote control uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I know what you mean . So we have to keep it on the one level . Like th the top it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like mobile phones . Like uh the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , it's chos So that should be hard plastic . Then the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I dunno what uh kind of material it is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think . Or maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can m make a uh round fluff or soft material . Just only the basic uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "basic remote control from normal plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the rounds of it from softer s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Then the L_E_D_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The normal infrared L_E_D_ I think s sufficient . And back light L_E_D_s ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think we have to make the case transparent , otherwise the back light won't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So if you put {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y i if you {disfmarker} The numbers could be can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh you can just make them around the buttons uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or it runs the whole {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can still make it transparent . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They can choose ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you can halfs transparent ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or no"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or just that it's comes out a bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay . Good . And in green colour , the back lights"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Different , I think , also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Blue . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blue or red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Whatever you want it , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh depends on the colour of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but you can't choo You can't choose it when you buy it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh i {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have to choose {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , but I think there are multiple colour LEDs . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I know {disfmarker} I dunno . Is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but can you change it if you already bought the the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it can ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause this a mo mib uh mobile phone as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe it's it's more impor more expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe put some different ones in it . Doesn't matter . It's just {disfmarker} No , just some LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have the mo mi I have a blinking light on my phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And I can change the colour of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , cool . Just make it some different colours . Blue , red and green , or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I dunno . Maybe it's too expensive , but it {disfmarker} I th I don't think so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , we don't put put in any fancier technology yet . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh some more technical things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what it is , but it should be there {vocalsound} I think ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um this is the normal circuit board , like a chip board in in a lot of uh things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we have to hurry up a bit , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W {vocalsound} So we d we just need this and {vocalsound} this transistors and resonators . There's all these kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they they basically said that that's almost the same on any uh remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'm sure we can fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I guess we j we just need that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know what they do or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can you can change {disfmarker} Yeah . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Nah , but they just said we need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh the battery contacts , like normal batteries ca you can put in ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , a recharger maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , we have to make sure to uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We still want to have a recharger , don't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that still the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but it i We don't wanna have a ar an {disfmarker} How do you call it ? Accu ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A recha Oh no . Uh {disfmarker} Battery . It's just a battery . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Re recharger . Base station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y uh just just batteries , rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , batteries . Yes , rechargeable batteries , I think's best ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Not a separate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . And uh a chip , that's this one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Then uh I received some possibilities . Um for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic uh {disfmarker} Like with the pulse watch . So it operates on your wrist kinda ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah cool . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So if you hold it , it gets powered ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hold it . Yeah , I don't think it will work , and {disfmarker} Or we can also use solar cells . But you mostly use it indoors ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's dark in the room . No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that's cheaper {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and and we can use the home station kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um cases , flat , so uncurved . Uh two D_ curved is um like front to the back . And three D_ curved is also in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's possible . Uh but with three D_ uh curved uh remote controls , we must use rubber buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . So"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can't use the flat buttons ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we need uh two D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think . Um these kinda materials can be used ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't really matter , we just make it plastic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think so too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The scroll wheels , that's cool . That's for the volume ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , scroll wheels um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's good . We can use multiple scroll wheels , w if we want to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think just the volume is enough ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Uh {disfmarker} For channels it's not handy ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you scroll too fast ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And uh the L_C_D_ . So we need uh the expensive , most expensive chip , if we use an L_C_D_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think that's an opportunity . Just skip it . Because we don't have time for that to to put it in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip . So th so the regular chip . Because we use scroll wheels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And um {disfmarker} Yeah , that was it I guess ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh are are we using a a rubber case , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh just sk"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We haven't decided yet ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe you have to skip that one as well . It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I don't think a rubber case looks {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh but we have to do something about the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , i it it should be soft . You said so ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The trend is uh spong spongy uh and uh fruit or fresh fresh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . That {disfmarker} Uh fruit and veg , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh now we have nothing about uh about those those two ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , fruit and veg can be just the covers ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah i Just {disfmarker} Just on front ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {gap} the the spongy {disfmarker} yeah , I dunno . I can't imagine a soft remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neith uh I don't like it uh neither ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just can't imagine it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} So just hard plastic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Titanium . It's mentioned here uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Titanium , uh I think it's too expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe the form has to be a bit different . Not the sh the square form . Just a bit"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "more rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you can make it curved or mm round . But just in two D_ , not in depth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} We have to decide which one we're going to choose from these . What exactly . Because we have to know it . So the energy uh is the recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We already know that . Just a normal battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . We have batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . The chip-on-print is a normal one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Regular ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the case is just a plastic one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah th yeah , the chip is the the regular one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , re Yeah , regular . Yeah , okay . Yeah , regular ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have the simple one , regular and advanced . So it's b should be regular uh the second ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think I'll just check it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a plastic case , with a scroll wheel . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's pretty much it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And a flashy light ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "User interface concept ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So uh I'm not sure . But we do I don't know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment . But {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno either ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . Or should we do it in the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I_D_ and U_I_D_ work together on prototype drawing on smart board ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's for the next one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we should did it here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's for th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we're staying here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh that {disfmarker} I think that's the next next meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or should we do it in the next meeting ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But you definitely get a specific instruction . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , so now we're ka thirty minutes alone again ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But th think about something that's more rounded . Just {disfmarker} And more {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh I dunno . But the iPod and etcetera , M_P_ three players , mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh a bit . Just just on the top or on the bottom ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a bit cur Okay , I'll see if I can see any of those ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe the wheel can be uh like uh like this . O um if you draw it like this , you get a {disfmarker} What the fuck is it ? {vocalsound} Okay . Mm {disfmarker} Doesn't work . {vocalsound} You see what I mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} What ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If I draw here {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It draws about four centimetres lower than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nah okay . Just {gap} . Maybe you can make it like this . And this is all the wheel for volume . So that you just um {disfmarker} It's all rounded , so you can do uh turn this one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like a very big scroll-wheel . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but just not on the top , but uh on the side of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we {vocalsound} have this at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think uh you'll get a a lot of uh volume changing when it's not wanted ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , you {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we'd have this . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that's a little problem , of course , as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it's probably better ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but maybe we can make a a plastic , so that you i if you like drop it , it won't change the volume . Only if you use your finger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , maybe you just have to make it uh {disfmarker} That's not scrollable too easy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like this . And uh what's the channel choose ? Where do we uh put that ? Still on the bottom"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think in middle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh wh what is the middle part ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's the numbers ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Numbers , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think th the numbers should be in the bottom , and and the switch channel in the middle ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't make a difference , if you put the s uh the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Use the dz"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because you already have the volume here , so {disfmarker} You can also put it here one butt and the other one there . Next to each other . {gap} back and forth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you can also can put it all on the top , and this , you keep this empty . Because you have to hold it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But that's not {gap} want to zap very quick , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think uh zapping is the highest priority ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? Is this a opportunity ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then you use those uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you don't want a different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , of course uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh but I think we we should bu uh put 'em on top of each other , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Why ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because then it's it's easy to know m if I push the the the up {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But still the next {disfmarker} It's still the next one . Doesn't make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up , and down button is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you put them {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but fo from left to right is exactly the same . It ma it doesn't make a big difference ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I I think it's {disfmarker} It's it's obvious , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But uh but I I think uh left to right is more often associated with volume , and top down is more with uh channel changing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's not not {disfmarker} It's not al uh always the same ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it's exactly th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In uh {disfmarker} On most on most remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Every remote control's uh different ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So so if we use that , they will probably have a long learning uh time ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I dunno . I {disfmarker} You already have the volume on the side ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , uh I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you can't make it you can't ma make a mistake ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's s so simple"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So but that's for that's for you ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay I'll d I'll take a look at it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so hmm . What did {disfmarker} What else we have to discuss about ? I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think we need to work uh thirty minutes again ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we have to care that it r uh looks really new . Because uh we still hold on to the uh ordinary uh uh square uh remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scroll-wheel on the outside ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And the LED ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , you have uh {disfmarker} It is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but i i it should be round in in shape ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh the current uh controllers are all black and plastic ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have to look at that image of the iPod ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More that uh kind of style ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And a bit uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Not not the old grey black {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Some some kind of bling bling uh mm can we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where you can put a ve Uh we have {disfmarker} If we do it like that we have below have we uh a lot of room to put a nice logo ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Uh the logo was has to be on there . Yeah , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and how many uh fronts uh fronts do we put on the market then ? Uh five or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , five . Let's give five ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or more or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe you can buy separate ones and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And um uh {vocalsound} uh buy the product . You buy , you get one . And uh basic ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or you can choose one uh if you buy the project ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yeah . That's your choice , I think huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , tha that will be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could put it like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , so top down ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , you sl uh you let it slide in the docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do we have to design that w as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The docking station ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But th Yeah , that can be very simple . Least ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we can b It c it could be just just a square , just a packet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a recharger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just where you're around something . Li Yeah , we had one example ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Which w"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's a round one . Maybe we can choose then ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Here you see one that's very round ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think that can be all kind of shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit . That's all ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Of the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just round it up {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so y you don't want uh this uh like the iPod {gap} . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "More rounded . Yeah , I think it will just look like more like this one . Since it's {disfmarker} This is also rounded ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , just just the corners ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , tho those are al already a bit cornered . Mm {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we can we can do all kinds of uh {disfmarker} As long as it isn is in two D_ we can use all kind of round shapes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Shapes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , but then we have to think of something totally new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Not in depth . Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , if if we want to make it kind of , yeah , new ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I've uh {disfmarker} I had a lot of picture of old ones . And all curves have already been done ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bit annoying , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . What do we do wrong ? Hmm . Just just more like this and not uh a square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay , yeah well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we could do a lot of , lot more curving . I would do it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I know we can do a lot more , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Like in this kind of shape or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's very annoying . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . I dunno if it's handy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} I think it will only look more like the old remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "This ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . But uh I had a lot of pictures {disfmarker} Oh I can show you here {vocalsound} what the old ones look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Curves , curves ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You've more {gap} there as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It wasn't very small one . {gap} very simple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That is for elderly ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have to make a decision , what kind of form it's gonna have t going to have ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think if w My opinion . If we just uh take the iPod , and the same look ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So uh light or just whatever colour , but the same light colours . And uh just with uh together with uh the back-lights b look will look very new ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No rubber buttons or something . Just together with the back-lights you'll get a totally new look . More like the M_P_ three player M_ um P_ M_ P_ three player ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you have the scroll button inside . {gap} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Just a simple scrollb"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of {disfmarker} Skip that one as well ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't have to be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah , it's cool ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , though that's a trend . If we want to make it . But yeah , I'm not a Trendwatcher , you are . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the t the trend is"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rubber spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "spongy and fruity ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . No . Spongy"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Spongeball kinda ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not not a lot of trends I uh I found uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we have s still one minute left . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's okay if you just keep it a bit square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It {disfmarker} The th th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I don't know n something about ergonomic kind of fits-in-the-hand uh stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I I think it's still for older people . You j still have older people . It's only annoying if it if it's like that f formed like that , like f Whatever . Just you have a normal {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but we're we're aiming at a young public ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There is one {disfmarker} There's just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original , and I hope we can uh make it look not like the iPod itself . It must have uh uh uh a very different {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , {gap} idea . But {vocalsound} you're {disfmarker} If you look at the way remote controls are now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i it is it is it is already fancy . Because of the lights on the bottom of it . That's already fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if you make it look like the iPod {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , they're all the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . So that's already a very big change"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh maybe maybe make the the mm the {vocalsound} wha what's it called uh scroll wheel . Make it in in yellow or something . Just like the colours of Real Reaction ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "compared to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ye yeah . Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we could do that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh yeah , but uh if you the f uh front , the scroll wheel will still uh be yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , I think {disfmarker} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Think the scroll wheel {vocalsound} won't be very big . Since if you put it uh somewhere , the chances that it will scroll are too big ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it will just be a small small scroll wheel . So it won't uh stick out much ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Maybe the ones we are going to draw there . Maybe we have to ask uh to the the mm to her if it has {vocalsound} if it can work better than this . Because it doesn't work properly . So maybe you have to ask her ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah okay . Well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "maybe we can just open images there , and I'll paint and paint ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah . That's probably {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I'll be able to do a better job ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you set the pen yeah , he will draw here . Doesn't work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , so just finish it . So we make it a bit like m that one probably . Yeah . Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I'll see it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Bu Yeah , I agree more like iPod {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , only the colour and the flashy light and the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just a {disfmarker} Speech . Yeah , do we s keep that ? Yeah , I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or keep that ? It's okay . But you'd definitely need a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "advanced chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then it w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah , I don't know . Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And we we have to build in a microphone and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well that's very easy . We already have uh the beeping of the {gap} home station ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , and I do I don't know anything about that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I d I didn't receive any information on speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh strange that I received {vocalsound} the information about that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh that's hard . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh the ma the main points I I I uh just said . We have to be original and uh technological innovative . Becau"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Ma"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "shall we {gap} it open then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can put all the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The function of that in there . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we need a {disfmarker} Probably we need a uh advanced chip then ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fine . Yeah , we probably do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But it doesn't say anything about it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we don't have any f information about the cost ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We started with information about the cost was now th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I just I just received the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh I have I have some some information about the cost . But just a about the chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how much is the chip ? The the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know how much , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , our division has developed a new speech recognition feature , the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker u unit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just in inexpensive or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is a very small electronic unit , will give a standard answer after it recognise a question ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And how how does it work ? Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Doesn't say . Just {disfmarker} You say record , followed by your question sample , and after a few seconds the answer uh sample . Because uh {disfmarker} So it works like uh good morning remote control , and then the remote control says good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It doesn't has to say anything . Just {disfmarker} You have to just talk to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah uh th that's just {disfmarker} It's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it say does it say something back ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we have to stop it now . So just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No . Yeah , it {disfmarker} Well that's integrated in the chip , so if you use the speech recognition , that's in it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's a r That's that's a advanced {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But i it's a separate chip ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I dunno , but if we use speech recognition , that will be in it as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't know anything about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , we just decide not to put it in ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker} Nah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because it's too difficult ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I dunno . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well it it would be would be a good feature feature ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we just put it in , because it's a good feature ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no worries about the cost , etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And there's a chip in it that will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have to stop it now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine ."}], "query": "What was the conclusion about choosing a regular chip or an advanced chip inside the speech recognition when discussing the remote features?", "answer": "Marketing emphasized on the importance of technology innovation. So Project Manager suggested putting the speech recognition in the remote directly and they would need an advanced chip. The group agreed on it and Industrial Designer supplemented that the division had developed a new and inexpensive speech recognition feature: the integrated programmable sample sensor, indicating that the cost would not be too much."}, {"id": 203, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The whole meeting was a special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. After some regulations proposed by The Chair, the members presented many petitions on behalf of different areas. Then the meeting proceeded to questioning ministers, the attendees asked for the reasons that the government put easy policy for fraudulence and tax evasion of businessmen. Moreover, the participants required government support under the COVID-19 Pandemic, not only for the elderly and vulnerable people, but also for energy resources and tourism sectors. At the same time, the exact funding from the government should be given to green economies including agriculture and forestry. In addition, the meeting also discussed the current situations of different sectors such as employment, fishing and tourism, oil and gas and business affected by the Covid-19 and called for government support for these sectors. Last but not least, the attendees required strict implementations of the laws and appealed for process following. They wanted a transparency and open environment for voting and debating under the precondition of community safety. Also, they wanted affordable medication including vaccines as a part of a sound health care system for their people."}, {"id": 204, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about petitions fraudulence, tax evasion, violence handling and their supervisory.", "answer": "Mr. Dan Albas asked about the handling of fraudulence by the Canadian government but Right Hon. Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister, was saying that the government put giving support and help to Canadians in the first place. Then Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie questioned the reason why the government supported the profiteers for tax evasion when implementing the large employer emergency financing facility. However, Right Hon. Justin Trudeau thought they were making plans to help workers to survive this pandemic and was always their priority to overcome. Hon. Candice Bergen required that how they were dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada and put out a violence case that why the Liberals were making this gun illegal and What the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle was. It was demonstrated by Hon. Bill Blair that many Canadians were murdered by these guns which was their explanation of banning guns."}, {"id": 205, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie mean by saying that the Prime Minister continued to support the profiteers?", "answer": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie first asked the prime minister whether the government would outlaw what was immoral and then, put it precisely, made an example that a bank relocated its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and registered them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Under this situation, the government might not consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada and that was why Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie said that the Prime Minister continued to support the profiteers."}, {"id": 206, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Why did Hon. Bill Blair support banning Iver Johnson?", "answer": "First, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. And Hon. Bill Blair thought what their regulations said very clearly, was that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers in Canadian society."}, {"id": 207, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about Government support for the elderly and for vulnerable people.", "answer": "During the pandemic of Covid-19, the government should fix this gap so that the single parents and their children could get the support they need. Also, matching funds and adequate housing should be given to support the affected in Canada. In addition, the elderly, one of the highest risk populations, had obtained extra funding from the government. Besides, vulnerable people like the disabled could gain more funding support and workers affected by the pandemic could also gain support."}, {"id": 208, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did Ms. Jenny Kwan mean by saying there was a gap between program making and its implementation?", "answer": "Ms. Jenny Kwan gave an example that a single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She paid taxes on her spousal income, but she was not eligible for CERB. That meant a complicated program delivered by the government that left many people behind, and more importantly, there was no action reacting to it. So Ms. Jenny Kwan called for a fixation for this gap and proposed that matching funding and adequate housing should be arranged for those who were affected."}, {"id": 209, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did the Canadian government do to support the elderly.", "answer": "As one of the highest risk populations, the elderly's costs had gone up. Many seniors who were facing extra dispensing fees were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It was so important that the government be there to support them. The government announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This meant there would be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, they announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that would help seniors to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected."}, {"id": 210, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about Government support for energy resources and tourism and funding in green economy and small businesses.", "answer": "Since Quebec was Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, renewable energy sharing through an energy corridor was very essential for different areas in Canada. And as a hard-hit sector, tourism needed much support from the Canadian government. The government was going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions would be ready when the economy reopened. When it came to the green economy, the government now gave priority to the virus and making through this disaster. Also, they paid much attention to the small businesses and carried out measures to help them out."}, {"id": 211, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What was the current situation of the tourism sector and what was the government going to do?", "answer": "The current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. And the pain would be felt by thousands of Canadians, who would have to find new jobs in order to survive. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people had lost their jobs and needed assistance from the government. That was why they were here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they could come out the other side."}, {"id": 212, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did the Canadian government do to help small businesses out?", "answer": "They shared the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why they've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, they were encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations were under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity Hon. Bill Morneau talked to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. They would continue to support small businesses. It allowed for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. It was a sound program and would require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"id": 213, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about things including fishing and tourism, oil and gas affected by the Covid-19.", "answer": "During the pandemic, the lobster fishery was being negatively affected and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Many fishermen had their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it was the whole family on the boat. Moreover, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals were having to deal with considerable losses of income. As for oil and gas, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. The oil and gas sector was suffering through two crises --COVID and the effects of a global price war."}, {"id": 214, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did the government do to help the fishing industry?", "answer": "The fish and seafood sector had been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. They've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who had run out of their fishery EI, but they knew that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises were uniquely structured, which was why they were looking at measures to address the concerns they had. Because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they were not eligible for many of the supports they had put in place. They had made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who ran out of the fishers EI were eligible as well as seasonal workers."}, {"id": 215, "transcript": [{"speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))", "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the sixth meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Today's meeting is taking place by videoconference. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please activate your mic. When you are not speaking, leave your mic on mute. Of course, change the language when you change the language on the screen.  I would remind hon. members that if you want to speak English, you should be on the English channel; if you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel; and should you wish to alternate between the two languages, as I just did, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking, each time you switch languages. In addition, please direct your remarks through the chair and speak slowly and clearly at all times to help our interpreters. Finally, for members who will be speaking, we strongly recommend that you use a headset. I recommend the headset for your fellow members, but also for the interpreters as it gets loud, up and down, and it squeaks. It really does make it difficult for them if you do not have the prescribed headsets. We'll go on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we will proceed to presenting petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. We will now proceed to presenting petitions."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. World Maternal Mental Health Day took place last week, and today I'd like to take a moment to present a very important petition on behalf of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. Whereas perinatal mood and anxiety disorders are the most common obstetrical complication, whereas in Canada and worldwide 20% of women and 10% of men suffer from a perinatal mental illness, resulting in an annual economic cost to Canada of approximately $11 billion, and whereas the U.K., Australia and parts of the U.S. have perinatal mental health strategies and screening guidelines in place and Canada does not, the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative is calling upon the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to create a national perinatal mental health strategy that will provide direction, policy and funding to develop specialized, comprehensive perinatal mental health care services, which include universal screening and timely access to treatment for all women and men during pregnancy and the postpartum period."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Scott Reid (LanarkFrontenacKingston, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. My petition relates to cystic fibrosis. If we were in the House now, as May is Cystic Fibrosis Awareness Month, one of the days this month we would all be wearing yellow roses in sympathy and solidarity with those who suffer from what is the number one disease killer in Canada of young people. The petitioners have asked us to look at the situation with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, which is scheduled to go through some important and potentially detrimental regulatory changes very soon. They ask that the amendments to the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board be rescinded, as these will restrict Canadians from receiving life-saving medications for cystic fibrosis and other illnesses, but in particular, a medicine called Trikafta, which can have the effect of treating cystic fibrosis in the case of 90% of cystic fibrosis sufferers. They ask the government to work with the provinces to find a strategy to jointly allow for the delivery of this life-saving medicine to Canadians across the country and to take a leadership role in negotiating a price for gene modulators throughout all the provinces of Canada."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's an honour to take the mike today, with all colleagues here. It's good to see you all virtually and safe. Petitioners in my community point out in this petition, which, of course, predates the pandemic, that the family doctor shortage is severe in this country. Nearly five million Canadians lack a regular family doctor. This problem is particularly profound in more rural areas, including, as the petitioners reference, the community in which I live, Sydney, British Columbia. We have a very significant crisis and a lack of family doctors. The petitioners call on the government to work with provinces and territories to find a collaborative, holistic solution so that every Canadian has a family doctor and we address the family doctor shortage."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)", "content": "Good morning, Mr. Chair. I'm presenting a timely petition today that emphasizes the concerns constituents in my riding of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon have with the Liberal government's inherently flawed and undemocratic approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petitioners call upon the Government of Canada to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMP-vetted Canadians; to focus taxpayer dollars where they will actually increase public safety, which is on keeping at-risk youth from being involved in gangs and on anti-gang enforcement; and to provide our men and women in uniform at the Canada Border Services Agency with the resources they need to stop the flow of illegal guns into this country. Through this petition, my constituents take issue with how the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal weapons smugglers responsible for the violence in our communities. They note that the use of the phrase military-style assault rifle is purely political posturing, as the term is undefined in Canadian law. They also draw attention to the numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'd like to remind the honourable members that this is a concise prcis of what a petition says, not a speech. I'll let Mr. Vis continue. I'm sure he'll be very brief in wrapping up."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis", "content": "Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's sufficient."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Okay. Now we'll go to Mr. Johns."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a huge honour to table e-petition 2512, which was signed by 1,198 petitioners, primarily from the province of Nova Scotia. The Province of Nova Scotia invited multinational companies to scope out and develop expansive open-net salmon farming operations. The petitioners cite that the expansion would increase environmental degradation, as seen in similar aquaculture operations in British Columbia, Newfoundland, Norway, Vietnam and elsewhere in the world. It also, they cite, would pose risks to native fish stocks, pollute coastal ecosystems, impair at-risk wild Atlantic salmon, and threaten established fisheries and tourism operations. They also raise concerns that open-net fish farming would not create significant employment and would undermine existing lobster and other fisheries. They are calling on the government to uphold Bill C-68 and species-at-risk legislation, protect our oceans, ban expansion of open-net finfish aquaculture in our oceans, work to phase out any existing open-net fish farming operations currently in place and, lastly, invest in land-based, closed-containment finfish aquaculture. I want to thank these petitioners for fighting for clean oceans, for their local economy and for the well-being of Nova Scotia."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. This petition was signed and sent in by constituents of my riding of NanaimoLadysmith. It calls upon the House of Commons to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on Wet'suwet'en territory, ordering the RCMP to dismantle its exclusion zone and stand down, scheduling nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentssomething that has already happened, thankfullyand prioritizing the real implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have the pleasure of presenting a petition on behalf of my constituents of Don Valley East. The petitioners are asking that the Government of Canada not provide any financial assistance to Canadian airlines until they promptly provide full refunds for flights that were cancelled due to COVID-19. They are asking the same for any foreign airlines that fly to, within or from Canada. The petitioners feel that these Canadians are facing economic hardship and need a refund."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now proceed to questioning ministers. The first question will go to Mr. Albas."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today we've learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits. Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200,000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need. We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out, to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation. We recognize there will be challenges, and we are going to work through those challenges. Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200,000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent? This is important."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can. Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out, with retroactive action if necessary, where and when there may have been fraudulent use. Our priority was getting that help out."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister. Did the minister's office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Again, in this unprecedented situation, our focus has been on helping as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government, but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, I asked a very simple question. Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it, and that has meant that yes, there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix, but getting that help into Canadians' pockets during this pandemic was our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "I'm asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability. Did he or his office sign off on this memo?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians. Perhaps, as Mr. Albas points out, other parties would have been slower to get the money out. We were flowing money to people who needed it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the question was quite simple. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't seem comfortable with the answer. Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud, or will he write them off, as the story said?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs; they've lost their paycheques; they don't know how they're going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries. We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage. We're asking a very simple question here. Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud, the fraud will be pursued?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians. That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation. Perhaps other parties don't think it's important to support Canadians. We will keep focused on supporting Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Dan Albas", "content": "That's not what I'm asking here, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through. What we are asking about is fraud. All along we've been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact, and we expect that to happen. Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians, we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact, to go after fraudulent cases. We will do that. Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need, and our economy comes roaring back. That's what we're focused on."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Ste-Marie."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)", "content": "Mr.Chair, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility. That's good. What's even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions. One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens. Excellent! Unfortunately, I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance. Basically, we're talking about fraudsters. There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers. Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility. Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance. It's a priority of our government. There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance. In the current situation, our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs. That's why we are introducing measures that support workers, who will continue to be our priority."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'm delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there's no tolerance for tax avoidance. The problem is that his remarks don't reflect reality. Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens. The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this, as do the big multinationals. It's time to tighten the screws on these companies. They have to pay their share. Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility, we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes. That's why we're putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a case-by-case basis. We don't expect the big banks to need these funds. Before we provide any money, we're going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed, including internationally."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'll change the subject now. Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards, which allows contactless payments in shops, not to mention online shopping. This benefits Visa and Mastercard, which charge appallingly high user fees, known as interchange fees. These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia, and it costs our merchants a fortune. Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at0.3%?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers. We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need. We're reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers. Right now, we're sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis. That's what we'll continue to focus on."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie", "content": "Mr.Chair, the question doesn't concern consumers, but merchants. A credit card company, such as Visa and Mastercard, that charges a fee of 2.5%to3% per transaction undermines the merchant's profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers. I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at0.3%."}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation. Of course, there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Kwan."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all, the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind. A single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She pays taxes on her spousal income, but she is not eligible for CERB. The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this gap. It has been weeks, and still no action. Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this gap so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I'm happy, Mr. Chair, to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit. However, as the member points out, when one moves quickly and efficiently, there will be gaps, and that's why we've been working diligently to try to fill those gaps. We want to make sure that Canadians who need help, get it."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it, there's still been no action. The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support. Will the Prime Minister fix this gap?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "We recognize the particular challenge faced by families, single parents and families with young children, which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment. On top of that, we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit. Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB, and we will continue to work with them"}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance, Prime Minister. Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic, leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID-19. Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene. Those living in crowded SROs and shelters cannot practise social distancing. The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside. While the B.C. government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term, support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions post-COVID-19. Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "I know that the honourable member wouldn't want to inadvertently mislead the House. The fact is, the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources, hundreds of millions of dollars, to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities, including renting new spaces, to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID-19. I recognize there's always more to do, but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy, we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians, and we will continue to do that."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient. Many people still remain homeless, and they are at risk. Cutting chronic homelessness by 50% over the next decade is not good enough, and that is this Prime Minister's national housing strategy. Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, cutting chronic homelessness by 50% is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government, and we are well on track for it. I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise, because we have demonstrated actions on it. I recognize there is more to do. There is always more to do. We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people, including homeless Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Jenny Kwan", "content": "I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993, so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals. We in Vancouver East have the third-largest urban indigenous population in the country, yet we got less than 2% of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding. They're overrepresented among the homeless population. Why?"}, {"speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau", "content": "Mr. Chair, we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people. We have moved forward, both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations. We will continue to work with them, recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government, and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays. It seems that the mail that's going to Service Canada has not been opened. In fact, one of my constituents sent documents, including a doctor's note, two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they've never been opened. Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem, and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians. In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have had unprecedented volumes, but we have redeployed thousands of staff to front-line services by phone and by other means. We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID-19 concerns and the safety and well-being of Canadians."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem? Is this happening rarely, or frequently? I'm hearing about it. I know, from many MPs, we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID-19. Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up. I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue. I'm happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Thanks very much. Mr. Chair, the Iver Johnson single-shot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding, in fact, passed down from generation to generation in some cases. Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal? What's the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program, with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes, models and variants of nine rifles, all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use, for soldiers to use in combat. Those are the weapons that have been"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go back to Ms. Bergen."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "I would challenge the minister on that. I do not believe that he has been consulting with front-line officers. We're hearing from front-line officers that they are concerned about gangs, drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and, in some cases, hunters. These are specifically used for hunting. So, Mr. Chair, we'd like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting law-abiding Canadians, ignoring gangsters and drug dealers. Why are they banning the Iver Johnson?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's a great opportunity, I think, when the member opposite says what the police are saying. Let's hear what the police are saying. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed rifles. They said, In our view, these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canada's military and law enforcement."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms. Bergen, we have about 50 seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Candice Bergen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we've seen this before, where the Liberals introduced a long-gun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes. This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before. Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "Actually, what I'm saying, and what our regulations say very clearly, is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society. I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many. We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now continue with Mr.Rayes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. Is it true that Canada Revenue Agency employees who process applications for the Canada emergency response benefit, or CERB, have been asked to send the payment even if fraud had been detected, as was pointed out in a national media report today?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue)", "content": "Mr.Chair, our government considers these to be very difficult times for Canadians. We're going to do everything we can to support them by helping them pay for their housing and their groceries. I'm very proud of the public servants who work at the Canada Revenue Agency. Nearly sevenmillion"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "I repeat my question, which is extremely simple: Is it true that the Canada Revenue Agency sent a memo to its employees asking them to ignore the fraudsters and still send the CERB payments??"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "I'll finish my response, which was interrupted: Nearly 7.8million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit. The priority is for Canadians to be able to pay for their groceries and their housing."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Yes or no: Did the Canada Revenue Agency send a memo to its employeeswho are doing an exceptional job, I'd like to point outso that they would ignore the 200,000potential cases of fraud that they detected?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "The answer is no."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The CERB has been distributed since March25, so for seven weeks now. The federal government website clearly states that if an employee returns to work, the employee must pay back the CERB. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether employees who decide to return to work have to pay back the full $2,000per month, or only $500for week of the month?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Diane Lebouthillier", "content": "As I mentioned, we believe that Canadians are going through a very difficult time, and we need to support them. We need to help people pay for their groceries and their housing. That's what our government is committed to, and that's what we'll continue to do."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "Mr.Chair, the extremely simple question I am asking the Minister comes from companies and workers. None of the officials dares to answer it when we call on technical matters, even though they are supposed to give us information that we can pass on to the public with complete transparency. So let me repeat my question; I don't think there can be a simpler one. The answer will benefit the workers and the companies that want access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy. If an employee is called back to workwhich is perfectly fineagrees to do so and wants to reimburse the CERB, must he reimburse $500for each week he works during the month, or the entire $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can clarify that Service Canada will work closely with anybody who transitions either from the CERB to the wage subsidy or from the CERB back to employment to ensure that there's no overpayment, but of course that there's no undue hardship on the individual."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "That announcement was made seven weeks ago. The workers want to know how much they have to reimburse. The companies want to know the situation so that they can make decisions on salary assistance. It seems to me that my question is not complicated: do people have to reimburse $500for each week they work in a month, or the full monthly amount of $2,000?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that will depend on the individual circumstances of the particular worker. That's why Service Canada is reaching out to individuals to make it as seamless as possible for them. I can assure the member that nobody will be put in a difficult situation. I recognize that there is some uncertainty, but we're trying to address that. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 35seconds left."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes", "content": "The answers that we are getting today are incredible. This is unacceptable, in my view. If an employer complies with the hygiene conditions, can employees still refuse to return to work, and therefore continue to receive the CERB?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure all Canadians that at the same time as employees have a right to refuse work and employers have an obligation to ensure healthy and safe workplaces, we want all people to be able to go back to work and feel safe. There are established processes and federal and provincial labour processes for refusal to work, and at the end of the day the CERB is there for workers who aren't working due to COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We're going to have to go on from here. The next question will come from Mr. Schmale."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Chair. The Wet'suwet'en elected chiefs and community members have been excluded from negotiations on a memorandum of understanding affecting land rights and titles. Only a few hereditary chiefs have been part of these secret negotiations. The elected chiefs have issued a press release asking for the government to halt the joint announcement scheduled for May 14 on the MOU until the community has had a chance to look at and understand how the MOU will affect them. Will the minister agree with the democratically elected chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en people they represent and delay any announcement until proper consultation can be completed?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations)", "content": "I want to reassure the member that communication is ongoing with and between our partners on how to go forward on implementing the Wet'suwet'en rights and title with a Wet'suwet'en-led solution. We encourage the leaders to continue their ongoing, necessary and important conversations with their community on how they want to proceed on a path toward implementing their rights and title. As we work to rebuild Canada's relationship with the Wet'suwet'en, we need to give them space for these important discussions."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Minister, is that a yes that the signing will be delayed until the elected chiefs have a chance to look at the agreement?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I believe the elected chiefs have had a look at the agreement. These are very difficult conversations on complex issues around rights and title. This has been outstanding for a long time"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "The current health crisis should not be used as an opportunity to sideline the Wet'suwet'en people and their elected chiefs. The federal government should be bringing the community together rather than actively excluding Wet'suwet'en members. The chiefs are so concerned that they are now calling for the resignation of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations for failure to engage in proper consultations, which has stoked divisions within the community. Will the minister reconsider and put in place a consultation process that honours both their traditional house system and the governance responsibilities of elected chiefs and councils?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Yet again, it's very important the member understand the engagement must take place and be led by the Wet'suwet'en nation. That means the elected chiefs and the hereditary chiefs need to work with all clan members as they determine how they wish to work with Canada and the Province of British Columbia to implement the rights and title of the Wet'suwet'en people."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I agree that the Wet'suwet'en should have the opportunity to look at the proposed agreement, but we are still seeing news coming out of the elected chiefs and the people they represent that they have not had a thorough chance to look at this proposed agreement. Will the minister delay the signing?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I think the member will agree that there's a lot more work to do with all the parties. I believe, in terms of the kind of engagement that has taken place in the feast houses and the notification that took place even before COVID-19, that the work is under way and it will have to be Wet'suwet'en-led in terms of what eventually will be their choice as to how they implement their rights and title."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "Mr. Chair, for two weeks now the Liberals on the indigenous affairs committee have shut down Conservatives and witnesses every time we mention the word Wet'suwet'en. They don't want to talk about the issue, an issue that is very much aggravated by the COVID-19 crisis. The Liberals profess to be the advocates for indigenous communities and the champions of reconciliation. Can the minister tell us why the Liberals are determined to shut down discussion and public debate?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "I would have to disagree with the member. I don't believe that there's, at any time, an interest in shutting down discussion or debate. I think, though, that at the COVID committee the issues facing indigenous communities, first nations, Inuit and Mtis around COVID-19 are very important to them. We need to work with them to make sure they can keep their communities safe."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. Schmale, you have 30 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jamie Schmale", "content": "I would argue with the minister and challenge her to talk to her committee members. Each time Conservatives have brought up the topic of the Wet'suwet'en and the situation happening with the elected chiefs and the people they represent, we have been shut down every single time. When will the minister allow the public debate to happen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carolyn Bennett", "content": "Again, in a committee, it is the work of the committee and the decision of the committee. I believe the chair and all members want first nations, Inuit and Mtis to be able to keep their communities safe during COVID-19."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question goes to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors. Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such. Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)", "content": "Thank you very much. There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors. We've been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic. I've just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a one-time special payment for those who receive OAS."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation, watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID-19 pandemic, eligible seniors are set to receive a one-time payment of up to $500. Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST top-up of almost $375 for single seniors and over $500 for couples. This is in addition to what we've just done today where, as you said, it's $500."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Abacus Data, 69% of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic, and 52% of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment, including personal protective equipment. Given these surprising figures, what is the government's plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment, should there be a second wave of the pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)", "content": "Our government is aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies that Canada needs, from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home. We're working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs. At this point, our primary focus is on front-line health care professionals, but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it. We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "According to Public Services and Procurement Canada, despite 1.8 billion units of PPE being procured, less than 6% of N95 respirator orders have been filled, less than 8% of surgical mask orders have been filled, and just 1.4% of face shield orders have been filled. We know that orders are not deliveries, so what's the delay?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items: face shields, gowns, hand sanitizer, and N95 surgical masks, and ventilators every single day. There is a delay in the production of these goods, but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada, including over two million face shields"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll have to go back to Mrs. Kusie."}, {"speaker": "Mrs. Stephanie Kusie", "content": "A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis, resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE, and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that cause rashes and headaches. What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE, given that 34 of the suppliers are from China, which has already supplied significant faulty PPE?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time, from China, and domestically, and from the United States and other countries around the world. Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe, effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our front-line health care workers. Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature, this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our front-line health care workers."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to the next question from Mr. d'Entremont."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries, in responding to my question in question period, acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID-19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Mr. Chair, on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the $62.5 million aid package. She mentioned that she was looking at sector-specific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed. Can the minister tell us what the government's plan is to directly support seafood harvesters?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleague for that very good question. We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. We've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI, but we know that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured, which is why we're looking at measures to address the concerns they have. I'm working with my provincial colleagues, as well as my caucus colleagues."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr. Chair, most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it cannot be used for employees who are related to their employer. Most fishing enterprises, like farm enterprises, are family oriented. Many fishermen have their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it's the whole family on the boat. Can the minister explain what the government's plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that, because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place. We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers. We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly. We are working on direct supports. We have put in place measures to address processors' concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product. We know that more has to be done. I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions, and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "In recent weeks, lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season. This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy. This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery, for sure. Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization, and can licence-holders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bernadette Jordan", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf. Those were not done under my authorization. They were removed right away from the condition of licence, and they will not happen."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "My next question is for the Minister of Health. Mr. Chair, on Wednesday, February 26, after the death of 23-year-old Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis, I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta, which might have saved Chantelle's life, available to Canadians. Now that almost 12 weeks have passed, we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study. Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex. Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Honourable minister, the floor is yours."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle, who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss. I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada. As the member has pointed out, Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada. However, there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available. In fact, the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access. I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer, as will we."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr. d'Entremont, you have 36 seconds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Chris d'Entremont", "content": "Mr.Chair, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income. In my constituency, tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor, Maine, and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season, if the borders remain closed this summer?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)", "content": "I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague Mr.d'Entremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country, and particularly in the Atlantic region. In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ACOA, I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Savard-Tremblay, the floor is now yours."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-HyacintheBagot, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Despite all the upheaval it causes, the crisis we are experiencing, considerable in scope though it is, can also be an opportunity to begin a transition. What is essential in normal times may, during a crisis, become crucial. What is unjust may, in times of crisis, become frankly scandalous. In Quebec, we are generally allergic to blatant injustice and inequality. Yesterday, Ottawa announced new support for large companies. Many of us in Quebec feel that, when a company knocks on the state's door to ask for assistance, it is totally legitimate for the state to impose conditions before providing its support. We in the Bloc Qubcois feel that there should be a limit, a ceiling, on the assistance provided to large companies, in order to avoid abuses in executive compensation. That is also the prevalent position in Quebec. A few years ago, after the Bombardier affair in QuebecI will not dwell on that because Quebecers are all too familiar with itthree of the four political parties that sat in the National Assembly and that still sit these took a position of that kind. A number of civil society groups in Quebec share it also. The United States, which, you will agree, is no bastion of socialism, has already implemented similar policies for periods of crisis. The idea is to offer support, but with conditions. According to a report published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives on January2, the 100highest-paid CEOs in Canada earned 227times more in 2018 than the average worker. The average salary for workers increased by 2.6% between 2017 and 2018. Given that inflation was then at 2.3%, it can be said that there was practically no increase. By contrast, the salary increase for CEOs in the same period was 18%, even in cases where the companies suffered losses. Let us be clear that we were not in a crisis when that study was conducted. We cannot even imagine what the figures are today. At this point, we are no longer talking about a gap but an abyss. Wealth is concentrated at the top of the pyramid, but clearly does not flow down to the base. Does the government intend to put a ceiling on executive compensation to ensure that they are not the only ones to profits from the support at this time of crisis? The question is clear and I am asking you to give me a clear answer. If I don't get one, I am going to have to demand a new version of the Clarity Act."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable Minister has the floor. I would also like to remind members to ask their questions through the Chair"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We know that our approach has to help small and medium-size companies, but also large companies in order to provide a bridge to the end of the crisis. In our opinion, that is very important. It will protect the jobs of Canadians and the future of our economy. That's why the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility is very important. That said, we know that it is necessary and important to impose conditions. Yes, we do want to make sure that the facility is available for companies that are going to continue to support our economy, to protect their employees, and to make a significant contribution to our communities. That is why we have attached a number of major conditions to our approach. We will have more details on the subject in the coming days. We established from the outset that we had to impose conditions on executive compensation. That is very important. We are going to consider the rules and conditions that are needed in order for the facility to be available to the companies, the operations and the employees. Of course, conditions are required to ensure that the facility is available for operations, not for dividends or share buybacks, for example. We will impose conditions of that kind. We also want to make sure that we are aware of the situation the companies are in. For example, we want to be sure that they are not engaged in tax evasion."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll now go on to Ms. Sgro."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity. I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants. Canadian seniors are worried about COVID-19. In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek, 30% of the population are 65 or older. We know they are one of the highest risk populations. During this time, their costs have gone up. They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery, as many cannot leave their homes. I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees. These costs all add up, and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It is so important that our government be there to support them. Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "My colleague is right. Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and our government today has responded to that with additional action. We announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This means there will be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, we announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example, to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected. We've worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors. Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC))", "content": "You have 30 seconds left, Ms. Sgro. Go ahead with a short question and a response."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Judy A. Sgro", "content": "Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to applaud the minister for that work. I know she's been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made, so congratulations. Keep up the work. You know there is lots more we want to do."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Please give a short response. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte", "content": "Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy. Thanks for everyone's advocacy. Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs, and we have been responding."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Now I'll go over to Mr. Blois. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Kody Blois (KingsHants, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's always a privilege to have a chance to speak on issues that matter to Canadians, whether it's from the floor of the House of Commons or, indeed, from my house here in Nova Scotia. It's great to see everyone across the country. Like my colleagues, I'd like to thank the staff of the House of Commons for their continued work to make sure that we have this forum to be able to continue the democratic process. I would also quickly like to thank my staff both here locally in KingsHants and in Ottawa for their continued work for my constituents. Mr. Chair, my question through you is to the minister of agriculture. In KingsHants, agriculture is an important economic driver for our economy. We have the greatest concentration of agriculture producers east of Montreal. From our beef industry to our wine industry and everything in-between, it is extremely important. We have the Kentville Research and Development Centre and the Hants County agricultural exhibition, the longest-standing exhibition in North America. We know that COVID-19 has had impacts on the agriculture industry to differing degrees. In particular, KingsHants is home to an important dairy sector. We also have a growing and important horticulture sector. Can the minister specifically provide an update to the House on the measures our government has taken on those two particular commodity groups that are so important in my riding?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are targeting support to some of the most critical challenges facing the food supply chain. Last Tuesday I was proud to announce our emergency processing fund for a total of $77.5 million, $50 million for the surplus food program and $125 million through AgriRecovery to support our beef and pork producers. Concerning the dairy sector in particular, I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will get the support of all of the parties to be able to respond to their request for an increase in their loan capacity from $300 million to $500 million. I would like to encourage all farmers to apply to the business risk management programs, including AgriStability, for which we have improved some of the mechanisms."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll go on with questions, but I'll also just ask Mr. Blois to excuse me for mispronouncing his name. Let's go now to Mr. Masse for Windsor West. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP)", "content": "During the COVID-19 pandemic, the State of Michigan has become an epicentre of the outbreak. The city of Detroit alone has more deaths than the entire province of Ontario. The border communities of Sarnia and Windsor have higher per capita infection rates than the rest of the province. Next week, the border restrictions between the U.S. and Canada expire. With the premiers of B.C., Quebec and Ontario opposing the opening of the border at this time, will the restrictions be extended, or is the Prime Minister discussing changing the restrictions?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "content": "Let me assure the honourable member that, first and foremost, all decisions about Canada's border are taken by Canadians and with the health and safety of Canadians first and foremost in mind. When it comes to the current agreement's coming up next week, we are in very close conversations with Americans about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "What changes are on the table?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just be clear that I didn't speak about any changes; I spoke about a very collaborative conversation with our American neighbours about next steps."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Are you discussing any changes to the current status right now?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I found during the NAFTA negotiations that negotiations are best not conducted in public, but let me just assure Canadians that the health and safety of Canadians is first and foremost. Our government is taking a cautious approach, and we're working effectively."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "This is not negotiation. This is whether there are changes on the table. What are they?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just say that I think the honourable member was actually seeking to know what exactly is being discussed with our American partners. Let me just say that we are taking a very cautious approach to the health and safety of Canadians. A very collaborative discussion is happening."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will more information be shared between your government and the American government on Canadians and Americans crossing the border on both sides?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "I'm not sure what the member is alluding to, but let me just say that the current arrangements are working extremely well. Non-essential travel is down very sharply. Essential travel, particularly for trade, continues, and that's a good thing, too."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "With border communities having more rates of infection, will they receive additional PPE and financial assistance to deal with the loosening of current border restrictions that is being discussed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Let me just emphasize to the honourable member that on a couple of occasions he has implied that a loosening of the current restrictions is being discussed. Let me be very clear that this is his assertion; I have not said that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Apparently, we're meeting for nothing. I'll move to the large commercial banks who are profiteering off or squeezing Canadians during this public crisis. Credit card interest rates are still high from previous price-gouging levels. Despite numerous favours from the Liberals, there have not been significant changes. Vancity Savings Credit Union demonstrated leadership when it set credit card rates at zero. Will the government use its statutory powers and force the banks to offer the credit card relief that Vancity has already done?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to say that we recognize the challenges that Canadians face, especially with issues like credit card rates. That's exactly why we've been working on this issue since we came into office. We came to an agreement on interchange fees that was important for consumers. Most recently, during the COVID-19 crisis, we've negotiated with the banks and encouraged them, and they have come out with reductions in their credit card fees that are significant, and deferrals for customers"}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will you use your statutory powers, yes or no, to do what Vancity has done to help Canadian consumers?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "As I've said, Mr. Chair, we're continuing to support consumers. We're continuing to work together with banks to make sure that they are giving the kind of support necessary to their customers, and we've seen actions in this regard, supporting customers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Why do banks have to profit at higher interest rates on Canadian consumer and retailer exchange rates during COVID-19?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, I think it's important to clarify that banks have come forward and given deferrals to customers in trouble and cut their interest by half  Mr. Brian Masse: Not on credit cards.  Hon. Bill Morneau: and that's been important on credit cards."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "There's time for one more short question. Go ahead, Mr. Masse."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Brian Masse", "content": "Will the minister use his powers if the banks continue to charge Canadian consumers interest rates that are higher than Vancity's?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, again, we will continue to work with banks to ensure that they're supporting their customers. What banks have done on credit cards by cutting their fees in half is an important nod in that direction."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Next, we have Jacques Gourde."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Quebec is Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation. The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec, in Ontario, for instance. This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions. Will the government show leadership and allow Canada's provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor, as we proposed?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr.Chair, we are continuing to work towards that end. It is always very important to protect Canadians, and we are going to stick to that approach."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new CanadaU.S.Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product. Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation. I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products. Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Chrystia Freeland", "content": "Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question. I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, when it comes to the COVID-19 crisis, what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable high-speed Internet will have fared better, feeling less financial strain, than those who are cut off from the rest of the world. Is the government ready to invest in making high-speed Internet available to all Canadians, no matter where they live in the country?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Maryam Monsef", "content": "Yes, we are, Mr. Chair."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Jacques Gourde", "content": "Mr.Chair, the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians, who will have to find new jobs in order to survive. Is the government going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Bruce Stanton", "content": "Ms. Joly, you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly", "content": "Yes, I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue. I know the tourism sector is important to him and, especially, his constituents. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government. That is why we're here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Continuing with questions, we'll go to the honourable member for SaskatoonUniversity, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor (SaskatoonUniversity, CPC)", "content": "Good afternoon, everybody. With respect to entering Canada, does the government consider spousal reunification as essential travel, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "The CBSA has exercised the appropriate discretion in determining when a non-Canadian citizen, who has no status in Canada, attempts to enter the country for any consideration considered non-essential. They are turned back because we have restrictions in place for non-essential travel."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully to the minister, you're letting down Canadians. People are being stranded, and you need to do better as a government.  Changing gears a little, all Canadians would agree, or can agree, that the Prime Minister requires suitable accommodation. Why did the government simply not tell Canadians that the Harrington cottage needed to be rebuilt and massively expanded?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I would ask the honourable members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "The NCC is an independent Crown corporation. It recognizes the importance of the official residences it has jurisdiction over. The work at Harrington Lake is part of a broader program to preserve and maintain and restore all official residences under NCC management, and we will support the NCC in its important work."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Was there something in particular that this government did not want Canadians to know about the cottage, or is secrecy all this government knows how to do?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, this information was and has been public since 2018. There is no effort to hide any information from the public in this regard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Respectfully, Canadians feel misled on this, and we're not clear on what the expenses were, how large an expansion it was"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Go ahead, the honourable government House leader."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Pablo Rodriguez", "content": "On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the pandemic, so the questions are out of order, in my opinion. Thank you."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "I thank the honourable government House leader for his comment. Certainly the scope of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic does expect and anticipate that the subject matter will be related to the matter at hand, so I would ask honourable members to continue to keep within those bounds. Of course, members will also know that we're unable to gauge that until members have spoken, so I would ask members to keep on subject. Let's go back to Mr. Tochor to finish his question, and we have about two minutes remaining in this spot."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "Yes, thank you, Chair. The point I was making was about transparency or lack of transparency that is hurting our efforts with COVID-19. Changing gears onto CERB, who came up with the number for CERB? Why is it $2,000? A senior gets $1,200, people with disabilities get $1,600, and now we've added another ad hoc program on top of those. I'd like to know a little more about how and who came up with those unique numbers."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Working collaboratively between ESDC and the Department of Finance, we determined that that would be an appropriate amount, based on what workers were earning and what we anticipated they would need to live on, and what we anticipated they would be losing by way of employment income."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Your last question, Mr. Tochor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Corey Tochor", "content": "I have a really quick question, which I've heard in my office, on charities and non-profits that do not have their own payroll number and are ineligible for the wage subsidy. Does the Prime Minister have a program fix coming so that charities and non-profits can receive the wage subsidy?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen", "content": "Mr. Chair, we understand the important role that charities and non-profits are playing to help vulnerable Canadians at this difficult time. We have announced supports in the amount of $350 million to ensure that not only do they continue that great work, but also expand it to serve the most vulnerable to get through the COVID-19 pandemic."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Okay. We will move to the next questioner, Mr. Aboultaif from Edmonton Manning. Mr. Aboultaif, go ahead with your question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, last week markets were shocked when leaks regarding the state of our economy came to light before the market even opened. This caused worry to investors at home and abroad about the integrity of our markets and the nature of the leak, which is, in itself, unprecedented. Section 34 of the Statistics Act indicates the following:     Every person who, after taking the oath set out in subsection 6, is guity of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to impreisonment for a term not exceeing five years or both:       wilfully discloses or divulges directly or indirectly to any person not entitled under this Act to receive the same any information obtained by him in the course of his employment that might exert an influence on or affect the market value of any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article, or       uses any information described in paragraph for the purpose of speculating in any stocks, bonds or other security or any product or article   My question for the minister is this: Does the government consider this case to be subject to paragraph 34 or 34 and a criminal offence, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "The honourable minister."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)", "content": "Mr. Chair, my hon. colleague is absolutely right that the current situation with regard to the COVID crisis is deeply problematic, and we want to make sure that any information we share with the Canadian public with regard to economic measures or labour market numbers follows the appropriate process. The breach that occurred is completely unacceptable. Our government has denounced this breach. That breach was not the way to deal with such sensitive information. The member has alluded to several paragraphs within the Statistics Act. I can assure him that we are looking into this matter and that Statistics Canada is looking into this issue as well. Going forward, we will ensure that such a breach does not occur again, because it's important that we continue to have the confidence of Canadians during this current health care crisis."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Okay, I will take that as a yes. So this matter should be investigated, yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "As I have indicated very clearly, what has happened is completely unacceptable. This breach should not have occurred. This matter is being looked into, and we want to assure Canadians going forward that"}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Back to Mr. Aboultaif."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "In that case, the minister said the matter will be looked into. Basically, my understanding of this case is that Statistics Canada is going to investigate itself, or does the minister think that the government should refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Sorry, could you repeat that question? I had a bit of an issue and could not hear the question."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "Will Statistics Canada investigate itself or will the government refer this to the RCMP?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, there are appropriate protocols in place to look into such breaches. Those protocols will be followed, and the appropriate actions will be taken to ensure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "Mr. Aboultaif, you have about a minute left. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "The minister indicated that this will be investigated, but during the investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the Liberal staff refused to co-operate. Will the minister commit today that all Liberal staff will co-operate with this investigation?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Again, we've been clear that it's important that any such breach be taken seriously. What has happened is unacceptable, and we will ensure that the appropriate steps are taken to make sure that such breaches do not occur going forward."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "You have time for one short question, Mr. Aboultaif. Go ahead."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Ziad Aboultaif", "content": "There's no doubt about the general terms, but I need to make sure that the government will commit that its staff will co-operate. Yes or no?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "The process is very clear. The protocols are very clear. The law is very clear, and we will make sure that the process is followed and the law is upheld."}, {"speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton)", "content": "We'll continue. The next question will go to Mr. Yurdiga."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I start my questions, I would like to thank the various ministers, parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray. Your support during these trying times is much appreciated. The oil and gas industry is under severe strain. Over the past number of years, we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill, Bill C-69, which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil. Mr. Chair, 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies, there are still no applications open for these loans. Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)", "content": "Mr. Chair, I'm happy that we were able to announce today some liquidity measures for large cap corporations in the oil and gas sector. These measures will provide them with the liquidity that they needed, and this is also the liquidity that they asked for. It was on April 17 that we started liquidity measures for small and medium-sized businesses in the oil and gas industry, and those are the ones in which 85% of workers are affected. Today's measures will complete that. I'm very happy that we've had such people as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers come out and say that this is what they asked for and this is what they need, and we have produced what they need in order to ensure the future competitiveness of Canada's oil and gas sector."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have seen junior oil companies close their doors. The larger companies have sent contractors home and laid off employees. Many of these contractors are indigenous companies, and they are having a difficult time qualifying for programs to save their businesses. Can the honourable Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations inform us of the measures the government is taking to ensure there are no gaps in the current programs, and commit to review the eligibility criteria for owners of aboriginal businesses struggling to qualify for financial help?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's oil sector provides jobs for more than 576,000 people, including 11,000 indigenous people, in every part of Canada. It is essential that we support those businesses. It is essential that we support the many indigenous people who work in our oil and gas sector, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. We have provided supports for those businesses, and we will continue to do so, also keeping in mind that in many of these communities the importance of public health and safety is foremost in our minds."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. If the global oil markets remain oversupplied into the summer and industry must shut down production, what is the government's plan to ensure Canada's energy security and the economic future of the oil sands with the potential shutdown of oil production?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we have worked with industry and with provinces on every front to ensure the stability of the oil and gas sector of our country. We have concentrated on workers. We need the workers in our oil and gas sector in order to lower emissions and achieve a greener economy. We need their determination and their ingenuity. We need to make sure that their jobs are held whole. Therefore, we are looking after workers and we are looking out for companies that hold onto those jobs for those workers."}, {"speaker": "Mr. David Yurdiga", "content": "Mr. Chair, the government's assistance package for the Canadian oil and gas industry provides some hope to the industry. The lack of detail and action has led to some challenges. Can the minister clarify? On a medium-sized energy company's eligibility, if the company is in default to financial institutions, does it still qualify for the business credit availability program?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr. Chair, we know that our oil and gas sector is suffering through two crises. We have the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war, and we have been tackling both of these on each front. On April 17, we announced liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players. That made up 85% of the jobs in this sector. We have announced liquidity will be further made available to larger players. As well, through the BCAP, we are making sure that more companies are eligible so that they can remain whole and so they can hold onto the jobs that we need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Ms. May."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues. It's lovely to see all of you. My first question is directed to the Prime Minister. It's a higher-level abstraction. As we all know, we're being told we need a vaccine, and the quest for a vaccine is all-consuming globally. However, people who think about this issue and the question of the power structure and profit motive, particularly Dr. Matthew Herder of the Health Law Institute at Dalhousie University, are questioning this model. We know that Jonas Salk never sought a patent on his polio vaccine. Can we ensure that public dollars for finding a vaccine will result in a product that is shared globally, openly, and is not for profit?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for her question. Our approach has been very clear when it comes to science. We have an open science model, and we're working with different partners and different jurisdictions to help develop vaccines and look at countermeasures and other therapeutics. Our goal is to make sure that we do so in a collaborative fashion, because this is a global pandemic, but make no mistake: If it's Canadian ingenuity and Canadian IP that's driving it, we want to support them as well."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "As a follow-up to the minister's comment, I note it was interesting to see the claim made by this public health institute at Dalhousie about the wonderful research that was being done in Winnipeg on an Ebola vaccine. Because of the for-profit motive and the interests that big pharma had in seeing their market before they developed the product, it is alleged that the Ebola vaccine was actually delayed by the for-profit model. I wonder if we might consider examining this profit motive around the development of life-saving vaccines and other drugs. Is that a conversation the minister is having with others?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains", "content": "I'd like to thank the member for her question. I'm working very closely with Minister Hajdu and the chief science advisor to look at all options. I'm glad the member highlighted the Ebola virus vaccine, which was developed here in Canada. I'm proud of the fact that the DNA sequencing for SARS was also done in Canada. We have incredible scientists and researchers. We are engaging with them and empowering them, and we will continue to share details of this with the public."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "Changing gears, we know that the new regulations limiting what are described as military-style assault rifles and guns have been very controversial. It's very clear to me as an opposition member why we haven't seen legislation on any fast track. It's obviously not the sort of legislation that would gain unanimous consent. Wouldn't it be wise to table for first reading the entire legislative framework so that we know what we're talking about in the long term with regard to the buyback program and other aspects of this issue?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "I want to thank the member for the question. I want to assure her that at the first opportunity, we will bring forward legislation dealing with a number of aspects of our commitment to strengthen gun control in Canada, including legislation to deal with a buyback program, which we've indicated we will put in place. There are a number of other significant measures as well that we intend to bring forward to strengthen gun control legislation. We understand that it's a priority. The pandemic does not diminish our responsibility to do what is necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we will bring that legislation forward at the first opportunity."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May", "content": "I confess that I was disappointed by this morning's announcement on support for seniors. I had been hoping for much more, because I hear from many seniors. I'm going to focus my question for the minister on the issue of seniors homes. Some that are being run by not-for-profit societies are actually running very well, certainly in my community, but they are facing increased costs that could bankrupt them. As yet, there's no program to help a well-run seniors home that is not experiencing a loss of revenue and has lots of staff working hard. These homes have increased costs for wages and increased costs for PPE and nowhere to look for help. Is there help coming?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "I offer my gratitude to the many people who are working in these long-term care facilities day and night to keep seniors safe. The member certainly highlighted that there are not only additional expenses for some of the not-for-profit seniors homes, but also additional new measures that will increase all kinds of things, including costs. We continue to work with the provinces and territories and support them through, for example, generous transfers of money to boost their health care systems in ways that they think are most appropriate. We continue to have conversations at the health ministers' table on how we can support them."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I'm afraid we're out of time on that one. The next question will go to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians are appalled by the disgraceful treatment of seniors in care homes across this country. Old folks are being left in soiled clothing and are going without baths for weeks. They are packed four to a room in dangerously unhealthy conditions. The situation is so bad that the armed forces had to be called in to intervene. To the Minister of Health, is her government prepared to take strong action to address this crisis in seniors health care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member has illustrated some of the horror stories that have appalled us all as Canadians and certainly as parliamentarians. We know that seniors deserve to live in dignity and safety with the utmost care, and that just hasn't been happening in this time of COVID and certainly, in some cases, in previous times as well. As the member knows, I've said publicly that I believe we need to hold long-term care homes to stronger standards. I have begun those preliminary conversations with my counterparts. I am working with many ministers across our government to think about how we do that, how we"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Davies."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, if we treated children the way we do seniors in this country, social services would seize them. Over 80% of the deaths in Canada from COVID-19 have occurred in long-term care homes. Canada has the highest proportion of deaths in long-term care home settings among 14 comparable countries, including France, Germany, Denmark and Ireland. Canadians want action. What specifically is the minister going to do about the crisis in long-term care?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows that long-term care homes have rested largely in the jurisdiction of provincial governments and, in fact, municipal governments, which often run them and fund them partially as well. That's why it's important that we have those conversations with our provincial and territorial partners, but the member can rest assured that it is on the top of my priority list to engage with my colleagues all across the country, including many experts who have studied this issue multiple times, to come up with stronger standards so all seniors have quality of life, safety and dignity in their elder years."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, Canadians don't want politicians pointing fingers at each other; they want our seniors taken care of. COVID-19 didn't cause the problems; it exposed them. Decades of neglect by governments at all levels have resulted in this calamity. Not a single province or territory in Canada is meeting the minimum standards of hands-on care for seniors, and death rates from COVID-19 in private, for-profit facilities are two to three times that of public or non-profit homes. Will the minister agree with New Democrats that we need strong national standards, federal funding tied to enforcement and public delivery of care to effectively improve care for seniors?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, certainly the member of Parliament has made an assertion that there is finger pointing. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, what I hear from my colleagues at the provincial and territorial level is the willingness to collaborate on how, first of all, we get through this crisis together and strengthen safety for seniors in homes right now and then how we look to the future to build a stronger network of long-term care or care alternatives that will ensure that seniors have the right and the ability to live with dignity and safety in their homes."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Don Davies", "content": "Mr. Chair, what I'm not hearing is a single concrete proposal or measure that this minister is suggesting her government can take, but let me move to another subject. Like long-term care, COVID-19 has exposed other major gaps in our health care system. Millions of Canadians lost their prescription benefits when they lost their jobs, revealing the fundamental weakness of medical coverage tied to employment status. Will this government finally move to ensure all Canadians get the medicine they need by bringing in universal pharmacare at the earliest opportunity?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu", "content": "Mr. Chair, as you know, in the mandate that the Prime Minister gave to me, working on a national pharmacare plan is still there. I know it feels like a lifetime ago, but the member has very aptly illustrated why affordable medication is so important as part of a robust health care system. I look forward to continuing our work on ensuring that all Canadians can afford the medication they need."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "It is now over to Mr.Simard."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ)", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister made a big announcement expressing his desire to launch an economic recovery plan that fast-tracks the transition to a green economy. MinisterGuilbeault, MinisterMcKenna and MinisterWilkinson were appointed to a group tasked with doing just that. Today, I worry that the group is nothing but an empty shell, a convenient post-crisis political pitch. On the natural resources front, the government's two main announcements primarily involve fossil fuels. We need only think of the $1.7billion being invested to clean up orphan wells. Perhaps there is an environmental component, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around yesterday's announcement by Export and Development Canada. It's going to lend TC Energy $500million to build its Coastal GasLink pipeline. That's $500million for a pipeline project that will eventually produce 8.6million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually. How does the government reconcile that with its desire to transition to a green economy?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (North Vancouver, Lib.)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for the question. Certainly at this time, Canadians are most particularly focused on ensuring that support is provided so that they can put food on the table and pay their rent. We are starting to focus on the relaxation measures in many provinces and territories in Canada. That is the primary focus of the government, as it is of Canadians. Certainly as we move forward, we need to be thinking about the kind of society and economy that we want to create for the future. In that context, we need to learn lessons coming out of this experience, and certainly we need to ensure that we are addressing challenges that are on the horizon, including the challenge of climate change. Those are conversations that will need to be had as we move beyond this phase of the crisis, but at the current time, the focus is clearly on combatting the virus."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Ms.Pauz has a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Ms. Monique Pauz (Repentigny, BQ)", "content": "There was absolutely no interpretation while the minister was speaking."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Since so many are having issues with the interpretation, let's take a quick break while I try to fix the problem on my end. I'm going to ask the minister to repeat his answer, and we'll see whether the interpretation comes through this time. If not, please let me know, Ms.Pauz and anyone else who doesn't hear it."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson", "content": "Of course, the issues of the future are very important. That means not just climate change, but also other challenges that we saw during the coronavirus crisis, challenges we need to take into account. Now, I think Canadians want us to take the time to focus on what is currently going on. We have put rules in place to protect Canadians. We really need to think about this. We need a plan. Of course, we need to think about the future, but I want Canadians"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Mr.Simard has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Mario Simard", "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. I want to tell you that, of all industries, the one best positioned to make the energy transition is probably the forestry industry. Unfortunately, in Canadaa petro statethere always seem to be two sets of rules when it comes to helping key industries, including providing liquidity support. Yesterday's announcement suggests that the $500million being provided by EDC is for a single project: Coastal GasLink. In 2017, under the softwood lumber action plan, EDC's entire budget for the forestry industry was exactly $500million. Now, EDC is shelling out $500million for just one project, Coastal GasLink, even though the whole of the forestry industry also received $500million when it needed EDC's support under a 2017 action plan to deal with tariffs. The industry accounts for 58,000jobs in Quebec and $6billion of Quebec's GDP. As I see it, there is a fundamental inequity. My question is for the natural resources minister. Does he think this situation is fair? Will he commit to providing the forestry industry with the same amount of liquidity being made available to the fossil fuel sector?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan", "content": "Mr.Chair, since 2017, our government has invested billions of dollars.  I'll answer the question in English.  Sorry. We launched our softwood lumber action plan to support workers in communities. We introduced funding through the strategic innovation fund specifically for forestry. Building on our work today, we have included traditional investments to make sure this sector innovates, diversifies and grows. Over these past two and a half months, I have spent an inordinate amount of time with CEOs, with heads of the forestry sectors from coast to coast to coast. A few days ago, I convened a meeting of CEOs from all parts of this country, from Quebec to British Columbia, to talk to them about solutions, about answers. The liquidity measures that were announced yesterday will help some of them. We will continue to work closely with industry to make sure we are there for them and that we stand by them through the COVID crisis, so we make sure that"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The next question will go to Mr. Dalton."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)", "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing from small business owners like Joel, who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program. These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50% and 100% and are asking for just 25% off their rent. When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau", "content": "Mr. Chair, first of all, we share the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why we've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, we are encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. We will continue to support small businesses. We believe this program has significant merit. It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. We think it is an excellent program. It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, here in B.C., businesses are preparing for phased reopening. A number of my constituents, including Kathy, who owns a beauty salon, are concerned about meeting the PPE requirements. What is the federal government doing to ensure businesses in my riding can get access to the PPE they need to keep their employees and customers safe when they reopen?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand", "content": "Mr. Chair, as a federal government, we are aggressively buying life-saving equipment and supplies. Our first priority is to provide PPE to our front-line health care workers. However, we are actively involved in trying to ascertain how the federal government can work with the provinces and territories to provide essential services and other businesses with PPE."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, Craig and Matt are co-owners of Wanstalls, a firearms retail outlet in downtown Maple Ridge that employs eight people and serves thousands of law-abiding firearm owners in my riding, people who are now made to feel like criminals by the Liberal government. Further, they are now stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of inventory that they can no longer sell. What are they supposed to do to keep open in this already tumultuous COVID environment?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair", "content": "It's important to understand that none of the restrictions that we have put in place, the new prohibitions, in any way impact weapons that are used for the lawful purposes in Canada of hunting and sport shooting, so those weapons remain available to Canadians engaged in those lawful activities. We have prohibited weapons that were not intended for the legal purposes of hunting and sport shooting and for which firearms are available to Canadians. What we prohibited were weapons designed for another purpose, an unacceptable purpose."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton", "content": "Mr. Chair, according to the CERB website, if a recipient earns over $1,000 in a reporting period, their entire $2,000 benefit must be repaid. I have constituents who are working part time and casually. They're worried that if they take an extra shift, they will lose their CERB, but if they refuse a shift, they will also lose their CERB. It's a classic Liberal catch-22. A worker may unknowingly make over the $1,000 by a couple of dollars. Does the government intend to make them repay all their CERB if they barely go over the threshold?"}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, that is why we're working with individual eligible CERB recipients to make sure they are not put in positions of undue hardship. At the beginning, the registration restricted it to basically not working, and then we relaxed the condition to earning up to $1,000. I can assure the member that we will work with individuals. Service Canada is reaching out to people so that nobody is in the difficult position he is talking about."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "There's a point of order."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "There were some technical issues earlier during my fellow member Mario Simard's turn. Normally, each person gets five minutes. According to our calculations, he had about 45seconds left. This is a serious point of order. We shouldn't get the short end of the stick because we speak French in the House. Thank you, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "All right. We'll check what happened, but I had stopped the clock."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "I assure you he lost some time."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The minister had to repeat his answer. We'll check and make sure it doesn't happen again. The good thing is that this is all being filmed, so we can watch the video back to see what happened."}, {"speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe", "content": "Mr.Chair, because the ministers chose to answer in French owing to a technical issue, their answers were unduly drawn out, which cost my fellow member speaking time. I think he should be given a chance to ask one last question, to be fair. Otherwise, French speakers are going to be at a major disadvantage."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "As I said, I'll check what happened and we'll have a solution for next time."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I have a point of order, Mr.Chair."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "We have another point of order. Mr.Guilbeault now has the floor."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault", "content": "I hope the member isn't suggesting that, because some members of the House are making an effort to speak French, they are unduly dragging out the time, as he seems to have said. Good for them, I say, for trying to speak a language they aren't necessarily comfortable in for the benefit of other members."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "I think a debate is brewing, but I'm sure that's not what people want, so I don't want an argument to break out over the fact that different languages are being spoken. We'll look into what happened and fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. We will go back to Mr. Dalton. You have about 30 seconds for a question. Thank you. Mr.Chair, many farmers in my riding and elsewhere are afraid they won't have enough workers this summer and fall. What is the government going to do to make sure those receiving the CERB and CESB have the right information and know about the job opportunities in the agri-food sector in our communities?"}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "The honourable minister has 15seconds to answer."}, {"speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough", "content": "Mr. Chair, I can assure the member that while we are supporting Canadians through both the CERB and the CESB, we are creating tens of thousands of jobs, including in the agriculture sector, to make sure there is labour available in this important and essential sector."}, {"speaker": "The Chair", "content": "Those are all the questions we will have for today. I want to thank everyone. When I first got elected as Speaker, one of the things I mentioned was that you would want everyone who was watching, including your families and your friends, to be proud of you. I can honestly say that they would all be very proud of what we went through today. I am very proud of today's session. I want to thank everyone for wearing the headsets. I didn't see anybody answer without one, and it is very much appreciated, not only by our fellow members but also by the people who are translating into the other language that you are not speaking. Thank you all again. Have a good day everyone. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon."}], "query": "What did the stress faced by oil and gas?", "answer": "The oil and gas industry was under severe strain. Over the past number of years, they had seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the Bill C-69, which would prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil."}, {"id": 216, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This was a meeting on the detailed design. First, the user interface designer presented a prototype to show the basic colour and shape of the product. Next, the marketing suggested doing some product evaluation instead of just talking about it, so the group started to judge the design in three aspects: how fancy, technologically innovative, and easy-to-use the remote control was. It got three, two, and four in separate aspects, which meant the design was acceptable. Later, the group discussed the quotation and made some decisions on details of industrial design to make sure the cost was within the budget. Furthermore, they came up with some new ideas about future products, such as a fruit collection of electronic devices or a customizable TV that followed the trend and people's moods. Finally, the group named the product as pineapple remote control."}, {"id": 217, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about product appearance.", "answer": "The user interface designer put forward that the basic colour would be red and yellow and there would be two basic shapes - circle and triangle, which was called a mushroom design. Specifically, the prototype had 3 key features - a fuzzy look, a spherical channel selection and a stable triangle base. However, the marketing thought mushroom was not in the trends so the group decided to change it into a pineapple."}, {"id": 218, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the user interface think the basic colour should be yellow and red when talking about the product appearance?", "answer": "Because yellow was their company colour and red was more attractive, which met the product requirement that the remote control should have a fancy look to attract the customers."}, {"id": 219, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the marketing disagree with the user interface designer on the shape of the product when discussing product appearance?", "answer": "In the user interface designer's design, the shape of the product and the buttons were all mushrooms, but the marketing thought mushroom was not in the trends because mushroom was neither a vegetable nor a fruit."}, {"id": 220, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about product evaluation.", "answer": "The marketing suggested measuring how good the design was instead of just talking about it so the group started to judge the design in three aspects on a scale of one to seven, one being true and seven being false. The criterion was how fancy, technologically innovative, and easy-to-use the remote control was and it got three, two, and four in separate aspects, which meant it was acceptable."}, {"id": 221, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the group think the design was technologically innovative?", "answer": "The controller had an embedded microphone array which could recognise simple vocal commands and the four microphones could capture voice from different directions. It also had tactile buttons, which was a really good point."}, {"id": 222, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the marketing and the industrial designer disagree with the user interface designer when judging whether the controller was easy to use?", "answer": "The user interface designer thought it was easier than a traditional controller because you didn't have to press a button, just turn the ball to a certain angle to select channels. However, the marketing and the industrial designer thought it was quite difficult because users didn't know the angle was the correct one and they had to go through all the channels if they wanted to jump from channel one to twenty."}, {"id": 223, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about industrial design and quotation.", "answer": "The group decided that the product would have a low level chip, one button with LCD, a scroll wheel with a push button on it, a battery in the base, a single curve, and solar cells and it would be plastic instead of wooden so that the costs were 12.5 Euros which was within the budget. Furthermore, they came up with some new ideas about future products, such as a fruit collection of electronic devices or a customizable TV that followed the trend and people's moods."}, {"id": 224, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the group decide to keep the solar cells when discussing the industrial design?", "answer": "Although solar cell was the most expensive part of the whole product, it still played a crucial role in making the controller technologically innovative. Plus, it would be interesting for their marketing team to make a lot of advertisements to sell it."}, {"id": 225, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm So , ready ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No not really Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Sorry , {vocalsound} I I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Your judgement it's {disfmarker} is biased . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm afraid {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh thi this remote control will stay a prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay , so whe where is the remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , we are {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Where ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's here . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} let's go for our detailed design meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I will still play the role of the secretary , and we'll have um first the project presentation by our User Interface Designer , David Jordan ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} and our Industrial Designer , Baba ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we'll have to evaluate the uh {disfmarker} your proposed remote control ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and um have an idea of the price that uh this thing will cost . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} And in case if we're {disfmarker} we all agree on the fabrica of um building of this remote control , we'll evaluate the um production ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So maybe I will let the {disfmarker} our two designers talk about so their {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I have slides ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You have s oh , sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Effectively one slide and maybe we can discuss everything ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Product prod"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What slides ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} So , this is our product or prototype . This is made by clay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks strange . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Uh the basic colour is uh yellow and red . Yellow is uh our company colour ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh red it's uh is more attractive . So we used two basic colour , yellow and red . And the shape , there's two basic shape . The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker} we call it a mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's looks like some mushroom , so we call it mushroom design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So this is a introduction of our product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Genetically modified mushroom I will say , but"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Next a mo"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {disfmarker} keep on speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , so next slide . So there are several key features of our pr prototype . The first is that it is fuzzy . I'm sure this would be the unique design the market ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I'm sure {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe , I hope so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , so it's a fuzzy design , and a unique design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's true ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , and uh the second key feature is that uh s circle channel um selection . In the traditional key uh traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle , so we can turn this ball to t to select channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Chan"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's quite convenient for user to use it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay , but don't touch {disfmarker} don't destroy your prototype . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , s {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay . Uh the third feature is a stable triangle base . Uh this sta uh this triangle base is very stable , so uh so it's it's um it's unlikely you cannot found it . So it's v Um , you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there's some cute button . You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Everything's mushroom . So we can call our remote control the mushroom ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , everything's mushroom . Mush Mushroom design , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but it's not like really mushroom because you have uh you know uh {vocalsound} like lemon shape , you know , centre {vocalsound} is yellow and t d"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , th that's why if you put it in the table , be careful , somebody will eat it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "To integrate , you know {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I hope nobody will eat it {gap} You know , to integrate the fruit aspect , you know the {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} in"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , because mushroom was not in the trends . I mean there was fruits {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Really ? But {disfmarker} Fruit and vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Vegetables . Mushroom is a vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so mushroom was a kind of you know {gap} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think it is ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's vegetable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mushroom ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh , uh I'm not sure . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So th it's something eatable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can {disfmarker} it's a veg a kind of vegetable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you know we we integrated them with different colour ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway , so it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable {gap} you know . This , you know , very enlighted colours , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , I mean , yeah {vocalsound} yeah . Inspira inspiration is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And inspired colour"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and {vocalsound} and very sophisticated material , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Next slide ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , no this our only two slides . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what we w what I can add is that , you know {vocalsound} he talk about what is outside , so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about , you know , the chip ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it is a low level chip , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we cut it to see . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know , we don't need to k {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know wi {vocalsound} the low level chips inside and you know the L_C_D_ button and the i"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So where's the battery battery ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The battery it is under {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is in th in {disfmarker} in the base , yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "In the basement . In the basement ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Base . Here ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And where is the solar solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But we say uh we sa we said solar ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Where is the solar cell ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Do you think it won't be {disfmarker} It won't cris increase the price ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} I don't think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll see after ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} but it it's might be okay , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We will have first to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I it might be okay . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so , mister money , what's your opinion according to this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , we gonna try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about {disfmarker} uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we had three keys {disfmarker} {vocalsound} key points to uh for this remote control design ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and first one was uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So w we'll try to judge this feature uh with a one to seven scale , one being uh no , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh just let me check ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , four point {disfmarker} three point five , it means it's acceptable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "One one being true , and seven being false . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ouch . So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we have a fancy look and feel , according to you ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you have nice colours . {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The sha the bowl shape people like ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , the shape is unique , and the colour {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I'll agree it's unique , but is it really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Is it really fancy ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So it depend on how d do you define fancy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I mean , fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} you have the lemon aspect of this th this {vocalsound} this thing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if you change {disfmarker} if you take the buttons out , and maybe do things like that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Do Don't do that , please ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno where the lemon is , but"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I it's it's i this shape is a lemon like , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's not obvious ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would be bet more like a lemon ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because i"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno , maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Less button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh so , my mush {disfmarker} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks like more fruit . Maybe a pineapple ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , but you don't have any button now ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you know , you have the finger here , with the buttons ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's uh yeah , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , it's getting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks {vocalsound} more like a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's great . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What's the use for that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , for turn turn the ball . If you want to turn the ball , it's very it's very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have no idea {vocalsound} what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} And where is the voice recognition ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh . Ah , it's embedded , your microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this th th there's two two functions ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Wait th that's the second point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is microphone array {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If it is fancy or not ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Is it better like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Looks {disfmarker} okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we can we can say t"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's say it's a pineapple now . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The colour , is the colour acceptable ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colour is okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So the shape now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I would say there is more {disfmarker} too much red ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "now you took it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's too much red ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um if"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "In the basement ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Right . So , from one to seven ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I will give {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm uh {disfmarker} Seven is the ma the maximum ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll gi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , seven is false and one is true ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll give two or three ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three , I will say three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three , it's okay . Three , three . Three is fine for me ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Isn't it bitter like that {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then {vocalsound} uh let me {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "What other {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The other criterion is is it technologically uh technologically in innovative ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it easy to use ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Feasible ? {vocalsound} You said previously that you {disfmarker} there's um microphone inside an"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye uh {disfmarker} Embedded ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this is microphone array , in fact ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's a micro array , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There four microphone ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So they they they they {disfmarker} there's a microphone array ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} there's the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you can turn it so maybe it's techno technologically innov innovative ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can capture voice {disfmarker} yeah , you c"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so you can capture s voice from different directions . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And I think you {disfmarker} you've never seen a rou a round remote control , so it is {disfmarker} I"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah bu but when you say technologically it's more uh I dunno , in the core , or single ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} W Yeah , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have tactile buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I see , you have microphone array embedded . You have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , that's good . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's good ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , th that's another really good point . Maybe {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think technically it's acceptable , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe two ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So using the same scale , two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Two ? I would say two"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Two , yeah , two . It's it's fine , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". You agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's better like that , isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Now maybe the most critical one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Eh , for th the vocal command yes , it's might be easy . But it's just speaking ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's very easy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just need the command ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can use this in this way ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this this turning {disfmarker} can you can you just re explain me the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "As a principle . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Please ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Th this is the base ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can turn to change the channel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Yeah but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You just tu turn d d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think maybe if you he"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , ok I understand ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like if you want to go from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You take take {vocalsound} the remote , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you hear some click {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you can turn like that to change the channel ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but imagine you y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's quite easy to so s zapping , but maybe it will be too fast . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I'm I'm no I'm not definitely convinced it's it's the best way to {disfmarker} if you wanna jump from , I dunno , one to twenty ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , that's difficult . That's dif that's difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "How can you go directly to twenty , for example ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , no , no . I {disfmarker} if y uh if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it depend on the the angle you turn the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I agree . I agree ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y how {disfmarker} you need to know {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But I mean if you're fro from two ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I if if this is a channel one . So it c it could be channel two , channel three , channel four , channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think something that {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you have a {vocalsound} , like that , and so on ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So change . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y uh fifth channel divided by the num by the {disfmarker} by three hundred thirteen degree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We're not talking {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you got how many degree you you {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can if you have a scale , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no , you don't have to y no it's uh when you when you stop t uh when you stop , the the turn ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "then the angle you stop is the angle you {disfmarker} is the channel you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's it's very easy , because you kn you know how many channel are there in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you you count {gap} one degree , two degrees , no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . You can do it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's a bit difficult ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think so {vocalsound} I think so you can do it . {vocalsound} I think so , you can just change ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think b but the the vocal command is easy too . You can say fifty and fifty it's okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah voc vocal command is okay . But w we've said previously that maybe it's not going to be th l the main {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's uh also a number , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but when you're zapping you're changing from one channel to the other , so you're passing through all the channels . So , when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that's {disfmarker} you've decided to go to channel twenty , so you can say channel twenty , or channel four , because you really want to go on this channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh , yeah , and y that's {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But if you really want to to do zapping you you don't really know what you want to do , you can turn it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And this would be more for browsing , ah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . To see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seems to be good ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good choice , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I mean you're famous . You {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And but I'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And also you can , if you i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} yeah , what's what's this cherry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You ca you can turn this . Or you ca you can you can also turn this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It is a turn off t turn off button , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For this you can tune it's for tune . You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two , you you skip this . If you want to from uh skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like fine , from coarse to fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is coarse , this is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah . That's"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it's coarse to fine design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "that's very technologic , so . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay the uh th this looks better . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah is is {disfmarker} this is , from one channel to maybe to ten channel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S But I di I didn't see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is from one channel to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "maybe one of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th you have the vocal commands ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's k {gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on off , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but it has to be on to recognise fas"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Most of the time you have the {disfmarker} yeah it's a sleeping remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , sleeping ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , that's not the ecological part , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's true . W that why we have the solar ti yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} To compensate {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , which number ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} three ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Easy to use , it's very relative but three it's fine , I think , it's reasonable three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , agree , agree ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So reasonably , is four , is one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Three f three for me , it's o it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Four or three . Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and {disfmarker} no and just take the mean ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And what's your opinion ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Will you give four ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh we wouldn't say , I mean , those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ? Yeah , so maybe if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh w w what do y what uh {disfmarker} you compare with traditional uh um tr traditional controller ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's easier than traditional controller . If you use traditional controller you have to put a button , but now you don't have to put button , you have {disfmarker} you just turn the turn the ball ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but y you know {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "There's two kind of balls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the smaller the the the {disfmarker} so you can c you can c you can control the scale ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But in the traditional controller , how do {disfmarker} how can you control the scale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh by pushing zero after after the first one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You just push two button , zero and and one ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah , y you you can do it , but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there's also a button here ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there some buttons ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , this function is just for your browsing , from one channel to th the next one , the next s sn s , the th the third one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's not what you said previously ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Previously you said that turning this was the fine {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if you're changing your mind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Fine to coarse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And from ten to ten channels here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Y one to ten , ten to twelve , uh ten to t uh twenty . Ten to twenty and this one , t one two three four five six , like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh there's different scale , so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . But this this has to stay on the table , right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This has to stay on the table ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} In fact on a flat place {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I i this is just a base . You can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but then uh when you turn turn it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , no no , no . You can't put it out ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh ye yes , that's right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just {disfmarker} It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just your turning from the base . You need to have everything in hand . If you want to turn , you can't use it and turn ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's impossible . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need to put it on and turn . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . You know tha that's the weak point ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You use your y"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because with a traditional one you just have one hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I've lost the remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "my God ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} So th this is a d next generation controller . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Nobody would take it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure . {vocalsound} Yeah , you would never you would never lose this one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So nobody w will lost {disfmarker} lose it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} yeah maybe , maybe may"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's the next prototype , maybe we cou"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S maybe we can change from th"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Four . Maybe four , it's okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Four . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Four ? Easy to use , four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'll put four ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna say four ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh it's even easier to {disfmarker} maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can erase with this er yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ok"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , four it's more reasonable , so . So it's nine ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So , average ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "nine over three ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Trois . Three . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , it's {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Trois . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It need maybe some wo further work , but it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , especially on the easy to use"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , uh s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "target ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Might {disfmarker} it might be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , th the project is accepted ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , b I think {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So uh mm mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's the finance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay and we we had a project prototype presentation with the evaluation . So as we all agree to accept , under certain conditions , the prototype , we'll have look to the final sh financial view ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So we need to calculate the production cost . As I said in the first meeting we need to have so a remote control that would cost not more than twelve and point fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And if not {disfmarker} if it's not the case y you would have to redesign it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , just have a look at the {disfmarker} okay here is the Excel sheet , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so it has the energy source . We have hand dynamo . No , we don't use that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We have battery , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , we have battery ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Kinetic , we don't have it , I suppose ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but we have solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "um solar cells , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , how many do y do you need , solar cells ? Do you think one would be enough , or {disfmarker} such as {vocalsound} as number of branches ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh I think in each ball you have three {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Three ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "three uh yeah , three , yeah . Three {gap} three solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , electronic . Single simple chip on print ? Just one would be necessary ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S s simple , simple , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Zero for the others . And sample sensor , sample speaker . One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . One maybe , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "As we have voice recognition , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the case ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is sh it {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we are all already nineteen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wooden . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just keep on going , just to have an idea ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The solar cell is too expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is {disfmarker} Yes a wooden pl I and that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's no wood , so plastic just only , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , but what what about case ? Uncurved , flat , single curved , double curved . I think it's more like double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's gonna be double curved , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve , yeah , double curve ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "One ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One , you have ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh wood ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's {disfmarker} yeah , a a rubber uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Rather four buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh no , interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Y maybe , two ? We have two special colours ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Y y yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah that's special colours , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Push button ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . Yeah , we have four ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Five ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Five . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Scroll wheel . We don no ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it's more like integrated scor ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think that this will be like a scroll wheel , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah tha that's wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y you tu you turn you turn it , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No no no , it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe two scroll wheel , as we have the coarse coarse to fine scroll wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , true . Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Okay , yeah , yeah . Scr"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , no button supplements ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think the price is okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay we {disfmarker} I think we have problem . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "L_C_ display , maybe . Interface ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we s if we keep on adding things {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's okay . {vocalsound} {gap} fine {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah w one of the m key point is solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe if w t if suppose if we change and we g put just one ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Has it changed ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it was stage one , so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No y i it did change , but"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have change the electronics to {disfmarker} from from the the the sample sensor to regular chip . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just imagine we have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We have to delete the the sample sensor , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} the the voice recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but this one one of the feature we were not really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah it's the one it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m maybe we ha we have two versions , the first version , the basic version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think you can transform the wood into plastic , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Advanced version we have speak ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Because uh it seems that this can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or it would be better ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , wood into plastic and it it should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plastic is free . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So , do we need special colour ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , that's one of the requirement ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because we have red ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Red and yellow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wait ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Fancy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We we can we can we c {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We could turn we could turn everything in either yellow or black ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yellow ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Black then is a regular colour , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so we need {disfmarker} if we try to have a kind of"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "pineapple bee . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So push button then it's it's the next expensive one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . An but we have integrated scroll wheel with push dut button . And I think this is one . Integrated scroll wheel push button"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , thi this might be ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": ". So we'll {disfmarker} we have only one ? And push button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Close to ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So if we have all integrated i in the scroll wheel and push button , it's uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . I can remove maybe f you have five with push buttons , so we can just , I dunno , try to modify some of them to have {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , so what's the bottleneck ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "How about we change the sale ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Double curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Double curve . We can transform the double curve into single c yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Something flat ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "F some {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but flat {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S uncurved . Yeah , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Single curve {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Case , what's the ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Single curve should be fine , so . Oh , what {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Nearly ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ah we have one {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And then one Euro left ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Maybe don't bat no battery , only solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's a bad idea , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I think there's a problem with the push push button . We only need maybe just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Two ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Just one ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "One . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's fine . That's fine . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay . {vocalsound} Agree ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {vocalsound} yeah , you will have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we have one button ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} One s one scroll wheel , so"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "one wheel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So one button , and s scroll wheel with push button on it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} {vocalsound} And the vocal chord , it's fine . {gap} It I th it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's good they're not charging anything for that . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , yeah . It think we we've done good job , as the cost is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cou could we have look {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve fifty e"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we have look at the p the the prod the p the cost ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah y actually it's wrong . We're not under twelve Euros and a half ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , but it's under or equal . It's not written . Sometimes it's under or equal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine . It's under or equal . It's fine , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . So let's say {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Twelve fifty ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Wha what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's fine , twelve fifty uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah . Which part is the most expensive part ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Solar cells ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The solar cells , r is i is it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think it's not t t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think , yeah . But it would i be interesting for our marketing team , to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , to be able to si to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's nice argument ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , with mi"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but if it's it's still four our of twelve ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's {disfmarker} it is really really uh really very very expensive , though ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe if uh {disfmarker} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but it will be technologically innova innovative , so . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but we just have one button . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's easy to use and powerful , as the remote control a has only one button ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Easy . I don't know about powerful . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Easy , powerful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's easy to use . It's very easy to use . {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I don't think we need to redesign the p the product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh that's what we've just done ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We've done it with {disfmarker} it is under the {disfmarker} if it was low , high or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker} So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I think we have just have to discuss if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So did you enjoy your clay modelling ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes . Of course . This is my job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ? {vocalsound} Was it a nice way to create your remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's uh it's good , to to create a control instead of a computer . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I think I find it really funny and amazing and interesting to go through all the process to {disfmarker} from the beginning to the end . And designing , looking at the chips , the solar cells and uh and it was very {vocalsound} informative for {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And for the marketing guy ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh tha that was good but we should have more brainstorming like meetings , maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we just presenting one is presenting his stuff"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "next one his stuff and then we try to combine afterwards , so it {disfmarker} um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And new ideas about new products , maybe , wi which would be fashion and uh and yellow . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow . {vocalsound} I think you can think about a yellow T_V_ now after {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a fruit T_V_ or I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It can be an interesting I don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , just lemon ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , just a lemon T_V_ it'd be {vocalsound} yellow lemon ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , but y you know the traditional T_V_ it's um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's flat , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah yeah it's flat ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Squared ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah the shape is very boring ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , that's right . It's really boring , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Could we come up with new T_V_ with {disfmarker} such as this kind of T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have base , triangle base so you the T_V_ you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Ah , the lemon T_V_ with the pineapple remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , that's {disfmarker} that would be really interesting , actually ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Because the T_V_ you {vocalsound} also {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , that's interesting . You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things . Electronic device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} Device devi"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just don't trust too much the trends ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The fruit ? {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause fruit and vegetables it won't last for ten years uh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , maybe la next year it will be insects ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe two years it's dead ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think it's good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after , you know , if the people change their mind you change also the product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but this is good because it's not a long long life product ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "T_V_ is more like fifteen years , maybe , so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah . That's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If you have a lemon lemon T_V_ for"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We can think about T_V_ with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "fifteen years {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Customable T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you customise it every ti so every ti if people change , you just change the appearance , and y y you can keep {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah such {disfmarker} yeah . You've already said mobile phones ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Tha that would that would make it . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , you can keep the global appearan"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , and following {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The mood of persons , the fashions uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's interesting , maybe we can create a a line of uh T_V_ with uh a a tr"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We int {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , T_V_ , yeah . A T_V_ for autumn and a T_V_ for winter , you know , so it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So what i and do w is it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think the costs are within the budget . We're just at twelve fifty Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , the pr {gap} at {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "do you think you can celebrate your creation ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And you can celebrate your leadership . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , thanks a lot . {vocalsound} Thank you , mister David Jordan . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but I think f {vocalsound} it's really a celebrating object . {vocalsound} So it's yellow and very {disfmarker} a very ha it's very happy , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh it's it's a pr it's like {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . It's party party remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The thing now is to to sell it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's your job . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sell it . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "right , go and sell it . Goo and good luck , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Okay and the twelve fifty {disfmarker} twelve uh twelve {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It should be fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's maybe a little bit expensive . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five Euros ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's cheap , yeah . {vocalsound} No , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} No , it's not so expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not so happy about the fruit shape , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Wh really ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It should be it should be fine , you know , actually . {vocalsound} S"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe what you can do a test . Put it outside , and if bees come , {vocalsound} it's really fruit . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think I like {vocalsound} the the colour a the colour are very good , so actually so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But don't put sugar in it , it's not working ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} No , the colours are uh {disfmarker} it's perfect , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's perfect , and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "True . Uh yeah , another thing is the logo is missing still ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I p is th y {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but the colour , I think the colour is more {disfmarker} is most important ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the the yellow ball thing that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because I I don't think you have ever seen something like that before for a remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Still that was one of the requirements we had . It's {disfmarker} yeah but it {disfmarker} I don't think it's such a problem just putting the logo somewhere ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh f like y we can we can put some uh double R_ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , but we decided to have something yellow and red , for the costs ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So maybe we can just integrate it on th on one side , the double R_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay yeah , yeah . That's actually good idea , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So we have the logo , we have the colour , and we have the fashion in electronics ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have to give a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we have the slogan too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we have give him {disfmarker} give it a cute name ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "th no , it's the it's the pineapple control {disfmarker} remote control ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mush mushroom controller ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Cute na You cannot say mushroom because it's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a pineapple now , it has changed . It's a pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a mushroom . {vocalsound} It's a pineapple remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not the trend ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Pineapple ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pa Pine apple ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , pineapple remote remote control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , but just flying saucer , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "With cherry on top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I would say flying saucer ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh unid uh unidentified remote control , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's more appropriate , somehow ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's that's pineapple remote control . I think it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Will you buy one ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah I will try {vocalsound} I'll try {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Try to . Okay uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Twenty five {vocalsound} Euro ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} . I can hel I will try versions so to see how easy easy to manage {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Yeah you told me you h you d you d you lost your control your T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah I always lose my {disfmarker} Yeah , so so i if it is a universal one I can use it with my T_V_ , so it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} so you need to buy one ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} One thing I like is the shape , because you know it's not like the uh the remote controls you can put in your pocket , on uh in your jacket ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Traditional one ? Yeah . So this one and this one . What do you choose ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I prefer the laser remote control . {vocalsound} No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I think I would choose this one because of the colour . It's"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} What do you choose ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's will enlight your house , your home and your T_V_ , so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh . Maybe next if we decide to do something we'd {disfmarker} can put light inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , yeah that would be uh an idea ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but that's going to be expensive , you know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We had some problems {vocalsound} going to twelve Euros and uh I dunno ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it it would be interesting to {disfmarker} just to see if we can {disfmarker} if people will buy this one , and maybe add some features to it after yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , afterwards , if"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if it's a new trend . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah that's that fine . So we can celebrate now . That's our new product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Champagne {gap} , mister Baba . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We should celebrate ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's fine . It's {disfmarker} I like it {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Next time . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So buy one . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , I'll buy one here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I will close this . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . No ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So I think we have finished the designing and the evaluation of our remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we have a nearly final product ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Our final prototype which {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Final prototype , yeah , ye yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Final prototype , right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Prototype , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Very productive ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S so who is going to take the remote control ?"}], "query": "Why did the industrial designer disagree with the marketing when talking about some new ideas about future products?", "answer": "The marketing thought they should not trust too much the trend because it wouldn't last long - fruits and vegetables were in fashion this year but maybe next year it would be insects. However, the industrial designer believed it was good to follow the flow now and then since electronic devices were not long life products: if people changed, the product appearance should change as well."}, {"id": 226, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "Project Manager introduced a new remote control project. The team started to know each other by drawing favourite animals. Project Manager proposed to price each remote control at 25 Euros, considering the 12.5-Euro production cost. The market range would be international and over all age groups. After the financial targets, the team discussed the remote design. Despite the \"one-for-all\" style, the remote was still supposed to be user-friendly. Standard features such as sorting through channels and adjusting volume would not lose their priority. The team, therefore, agreed on a style of basic buttons with a self-intuitive screen menu. Silver lightweight plastic was temporarily decided to be the material, for it is easily moulded and cost-saving."}, {"id": 227, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about remote control style and design optimization?", "answer": "Industrial Designer desired to integrate remote controls for different appliances into one. Marketing pointed out that such integration would lead to too many buttons, which was not user-friendly enough. Instead, Marketing suggested that a menu display should be incorporated. Project Manager and User Interface agreed and added that basic buttons could remain. User Interface and Industrial Designer refused the flip top, however, for it costs a lot. The team temporarily chose lightweight plastic to be the material."}, {"id": 228, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "Why did the group decide to incorporate a menu display when discussing remote control style and design optimization?", "answer": "Marketing believed that most of the market would want convenient channel browsing and volume adjustment features instead of any tampering or programming with too many buttons. User Interface agreed with the simplification of symbols. The team came up with a menu display to make the remote more user-friendly."}, {"id": 229, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer think of the older generation when discussing remote control style and design optimization?", "answer": "Industrial Designer initially worried about the replacement of buttons. Industrial Designer was soon convinced by Marketing that the age gap was a problem regardless of any design modifications and insisted on the incorporation of a menu display, however."}, {"id": 230, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer think of plastic when discussing remote control style and design optimization?", "answer": "Industrial Designer was uncertain about whether the remote could look fashionable with plastic at first. Marketing and Project Manager exemplified other remote controls to make Industrial Designer believe that silver plastic could look smart."}, {"id": 231, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about price issues and target groups of remote control.", "answer": "Project Manager proposed to price each remote control at 25 Euros, considering the 12.5-Euro production cost. The profit aim for the team would be 50 million Euros in the first year. The market range would be international and over all age groups."}, {"id": 232, "transcript": [{"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm hmm hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Are we {disfmarker} we're not allowed to dim the lights so people can see that a bit better ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's fine . Am I supposed to be standing up there ? Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So we've got both of these clipped on ? She gonna answer me or not ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , both of them , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Jesus , it's gonna fall off {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Yep , yep . {vocalsound} Okay . Tu tu tu tu"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Hello everybody ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hi , good morning ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm Sarah , the Project Manager and this is our first meeting , surprisingly enough . Okay , this is our agenda , um {vocalsound} we will do some stuff , get to know each other a bit better to feel more comfortable with each other . Um then we'll go do tool training , talk about the project plan , discuss our own ideas and everything um and we've got twenty five minutes to do that , as far as I can understand . Now , we're developing a remote control which you probably already know . Um , we want it to be original , something that's uh {disfmarker} people haven't thought of , that's not out in the shops , um , trendy , appealing to a wide market , but you know , not a hunk of metal , and user-friendly , grannies to kids , maybe even pooches should be able to use it . Okay , um , first is the functional design , um this is where we all go off and do our individual work , um what needs need to be fulfilled by the product , um what effects the product has to have and how it's actually going to do that . Um , conceptual design , what we're thinking , how it's gonna go and then the detailed design , how we're actually gonna put it into practice and make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right . We're gonna practice with the pens and draw our favourite animal on the white board , I'll go first , and um sum up the characteristics of that animal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , I'll leave space for everyone else . Um {disfmarker} What's missing ? We're running out of blue . Okay . I'm not gonna ask you to guess , I'm going to tell you that's supposed to be a tiger ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And I see them as majestic , and independent , and proud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh sorry . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now , who would like to go next ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} Cat . Where did this come from ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that your lapel then ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh , yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There you go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you . Uh , maybe you can guess what I'm trying to make ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "A kind of dog ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . It's actually sitting , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's sitting down ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it's sitting , it's not standing ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , I see it as one thing it's very supportive . It's your best friend and your {disfmarker} you can talk to a dog , it can be your best friend , it doesn't discriminate between you , based on what you are . Second it's loyal and third thing it's got intuition . {gap} dogs can som sometimes can make out between a thief and a person"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so basically these are the three unique features I think belong to a dog ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I'll have a go ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Please , please leave me a space at the bottom , I'm little ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can get to the top , with standing on a chair ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well since you guys have chosen the ones I wanted to do , I'll have to have to go for something a bit random ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it look like a dog actually ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And also , my drawing skill isn't that great so , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well , as you can see , the quality of the work today is um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think it's outstandingly good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , now I'm gonna have to change what is was originally gonna be"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because that looks like a beak now , so . {vocalsound} Yeah , it can be a crocodile , it can be a crocodile ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Crocodile ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Gonna be a bird . Is it gonna be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well it was it was an {disfmarker} at first {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} it's gonna be a bird ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "firstly it was an attempt at a T_ Rex and then it sort of changed into a pelican"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "O"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but it can be a crocodile now actually {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and uh I'll have to think on the spot of uh things that it is . Um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Beauti that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh scary , uh strong , yeah that's about it I think {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay {vocalsound} it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Um , I'm very impressed with your artistic skills ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "mine's {disfmarker} are dreadful . Oops this is now coming apart , let me just put the top in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Wo {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I hope that clicks in , I'll just {disfmarker} I'll hold it on , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oops , oh dear , what happened there ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Technical help ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hopefully that'll stay on , two-handed version ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , uh {disfmarker} Again this is off the top of my head , I was gonna do a big cat too , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh dear , it doesn't look what like what I want it to be {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "S Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not a vampire bat honestly {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh and somewhere there's a body behind ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , some sort of bird {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's my dreadful {disfmarker} that's the worst yet , that's {disfmarker} it's meant to be an eagle {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A seagu"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Eagle , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "right ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ah eagle , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not a seagull {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you can tell it's a flying animal {vocalsound} could have been a seagull , I never thought of a seagull . An eagle , um again I'm thinking on my feet goodness . I suppose they're all so independent , I'd put that one down again . {vocalsound} Da dum um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Indepen independent , right , did you say they're good at golf ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , no yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Are they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "an eagle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . Oh right , okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm not good at golf ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'd say they're quite free-spirited , flying around everywhere , doing their own thing . And uh , birds of prey aren't they ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear , intrepid . I'll put that , intrepid ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "There we go ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's lovely ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "hope that pen's gonna be okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . That was fun , right . Um finance-wise , we've got a selling price at twenty five Euros , which I don't actually know what that is in Pounds , at all . Any ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "mm , mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "D fifteen ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah about seventeen , seventeen Pounds , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Seventeen ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Seventeen Pounds ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , that's expensive ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can't we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , I think so ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll be able to um pull it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or I could put it in the shared folder or something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Havi having said that though , if you wanna get one of those {disfmarker} the the ones on the market at the moment they're s they're about twenty pounds anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So , it'd still be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , we had to buy one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price , we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapie-cheapie option ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , um production cost's at twelve fifty , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , pretty huge margin ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "half of the selling price is taken up by building it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and profit aim is fifty million Euros ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In our first year ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yi yes , um yeah , I presume so . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You've got market range international and you did say earlier it's got to be a {disfmarker} um accessible and usable by sort of all age groups"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just t we're not focusing on business market , any particular thing , it's everyone"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{disfmarker} user-friendly to everyone . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Big target group {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes , yes , I don't think we have to {disfmarker} I don't think it's a case of worrying about different languages and things like that , um making that a key point ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "just that it's going to be in the international market like Australia , America , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I've got {disfmarker} we got um {disfmarker} we had three videos , a T_V_ and a sort of amp thing all set up"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we got one of the universal remote controls , um that you programme each of your things into ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that kept losing the signals so we'd have to re-programme it every now and again . I think it was quite a cheapie as well , so that might have had something to do with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah uh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that was quite good , the fact that you could {disfmarker} You didn't have six remote controls sitting in front of you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Use all the ones at the same time ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , you wanna integrate everything into one like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy , not doing any tampering with it and programming , using it to programme T_V_ and uh uh videos and things . But basically on , off , volume up and down , channel one , two , th that basic functions ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't think I could go any further with it than that , so , I suppose it's got to be something usable by someone like me as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , the main {disfmarker} that's the main stuff anyway , I mean"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} and you don't want to {disfmarker} I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . And symbols that you don't necessarily understand ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "symbols you're meant to understand that you don't ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So simplification of symbols you could think of ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um . When they're {disfmarker} when you've got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording , things like that inside it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it doesn't make {disfmarker} when you pick it up it doesn't make it really complicated to look at ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's obvious what you're doing , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Actually that just raises a point , I wonder what our design people think , but you know on a mobile phone , you can press a key and it gives you a menu , it's got a menu display ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Menu , alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got a little L_C_D_ display ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right , I was thinking on the same lines you , instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user , may h maybe have an L_C_D_ di display or something like that , like a mobile , yeah and with menus ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "With menus , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And if it's s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone , people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You mean to save it lesser number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , my grandad can answer his mobile phone , but he couldn't even dream of texting or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they tape things ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , my grandad's actually better than me at using teletext , so {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think they use {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . So that's a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that's gonna be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , yeah , the age gap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , what it just needs to be {disfmarker} as long as it's sort of self-intuitive and you can can work out what everything's doing , 'cause I mean , menus on sort of new phones now they've sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you're trying to do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know , I d"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I don't know how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't like the , you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windows-based running system ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I find it really confusing , I kept getting lost {vocalsound} in the phone , I di I've not got a new one but uh my friend got a new one"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost , but that's just me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I don't I don't know how for twenty fi , or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you'd you'd have to sort of keep it down to a black and white L_C_D_ thing anyway , I'd assume ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Teletext has got that option as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Obviously it displays less on the screen , it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that's the main thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you've got the basic buttons just for your play , volume , programme things"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and also {disfmarker} and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures , obvious symbols and that's where you control recording and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm . The other thing is , just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again , it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top , your screen is {disfmarker} you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , okay . S"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's a cost thing , I don't I don't know how much we're gonna know about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It might"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it might save a b bit of space , it's i instead of looking bulky , it might look small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , no that's important ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But it might have its cost implications ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , like smaller ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And there's no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone , it can still be lightweight plastic , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Something that's easily moulded and produced ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry I'm treading on your territory guys . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , right , okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No uh uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got half an hour before the next meeting , so we're all gonna go off and do our individual things . Um I think that's probably about it and then we'll come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Just just a quick thing about the um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "about what you're saying about the uh {disfmarker} does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of {disfmarker} I I had a quick look at the company website and it's like the the uh {disfmarker} we put the fashion into electronics , so I think think the whole design thing might be qui"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you don't {disfmarker} you you can still have plastic"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure b y yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it'd look quite good but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it doesn't have to be that , you know {vocalsound} th that was my main point ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we don't have to use metal , I don't know if using plastic does make it cheaper ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I presume it would ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it would probably . I mean there's Sky remote controls and everything . They're kind of moulded and look a bit different , and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic , which looks a bit smarter ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so yeah I guess that's stuff we can think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so let's break it up there . Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So , see you in half an hour ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Do we go back to our room ? Yep ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so , yeah ."}], "query": "What did Project Manager think of the market range when discussing price issues and target groups of the remote control?", "answer": "Project Manager hoped to make the market range international, covering all age groups, instead of focusing solely on the business market. Project Manager highlighted that the team should not worry about the language differences and the big target group would be achievable."}, {"id": 233, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "The team mainly made some adjustments to the remote control design to meet the new project requirements. The second meeting started with Project Manager who briefly went over the last meeting. Industrial Designer hoped to minimize the size of the battery. The team thus decided on a rechargeable one. User Interface desired to simplify the remote control style, cutting down unnecessary functions. According to the market research presented by Marketing, the team agreed on a trendy and user-friendly flip-top design. An alarm would be incorporated for detection in case the remote control was lost in the house."}, {"id": 234, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about battery issues and flip top design?", "answer": "On battery issue, Industrial Designer expressed a desire to minimize the size of the battery. Meanwhile, cost, power consumption, wireless range and data transmission were supposed to be considered. User Interface's presentation followed. The remote control design would be simplified and user-friendly. To make the style more trendy, User Interface decided on a flip-top model."}, {"id": 235, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer think of triple A batteries when discussing battery issues and flip top design?", "answer": "Industrial Designer admitted that current remote controls were mostly powered by triple A batteries. However, Industrial Designer also pointed out that they were bulky, although they had been the smallest fit-in batteries at present. Industrial Designer expressed a desire to find a smaller alternative for triple A batteries."}, {"id": 236, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about market research and adjustments due to new project requirements.", "answer": "The market research presented by Marketing implicated that the remote control design was expected to be more stylish and less complicated. Project Manager added that an ideal model would be for TV only and have a corporate logo incorporated. To meet the requirements above, Industrial Designer recommended a touch screen panel. Marketing suggested that the remote control size could be adjusted due to physical differences among international users. The team gave up speech recognition, for it would cost a lot. An alarm would be incorporated for detection in case the remote control was lost in the house."}, {"id": 237, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "Why did Industrial Designer think of incorporating an alarm when discussing market research and adjustments due to new project requirements?", "answer": "The market research implicated that users' biggest frustration was their failure in finding the remote control once it was lost in the house. To solve the problem, Industrial Designer suggested that a button could be added on the TV; when the user pressed the button, the remote control would beep to let the user know its location. Meanwhile, such a solution would be within budget."}, {"id": 238, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "Why did Industrial Designer think of physically different designs when discussing market research and adjustments due to new project requirements?", "answer": "Industrial Designer was inspired by the design of Xbox and gave an example of Japanese people's small hands compared to the big controller. Out of ergonomic considerations, Industrial Designer encouraged the team to notice the physical differences among users all over the world when deciding the remote control size."}, {"id": 239, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Help . {gap} It's up there ? That screen's black ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright , okay . Okay , that's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh God ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are we done ? Right , okay um , this is our second meeting and I might be a bit all over the place ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right our agenda for today , do you want us to give you a second ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , no that's okay ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll go over what we decided last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , we decided upon a universal control , one handset for all , T_V_ , video equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that it was important that the product was accessible to a wide range of consumers , wide age range , not limiting anyone . We decided it was important to reflect the company's image in our product , we put fashion in electronics , you know that kind of s thing . Um , our budget would have to affect um {disfmarker} try not to reflect our budget , um that we might have a bit of {disfmarker} oh oh you can see it , okay {vocalsound} . Um dissonance between what our budget was and what we want it to look like ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um want it to look uncluttered , undaunting to the customer . We discussed a flip-open design , um reducing the size of the control and an electronic panel um for further features like programming , things like that . Okay . Um , three presentations , I've got written here so shall we hear from Marketing first ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um is it okay if I postpone that til later , I just want to get access to a little bit more information ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No that's fine , that's fine . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , yeah I'll go first . Can I grab the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Unplug me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Thanks . What do I have to press ? Oh , F_ eight ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , F_N_ function F_ eight ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh right , yeah . Okay . Maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yep there we go . Okay this is uh the working design , presented by me , the uh Industrial Designer extraordinaire ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so . What {disfmarker} the first thing {disfmarker} question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well , a device which basically just sends the signal to the T_V_ to change its state , whether that be the power , or the channel um or the volume , everything is just um some sort of signal to change the state of the T_V_ or other appliance that it's sending the signal to . Um , so I decided I'd have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that . But uh although we will want to be taking ideas from other people , we wanna make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that {disfmarker} well it wasn't really my area because {vocalsound} I'm dealing with the inside really . So um , yeah I ran out of time so I couldn't do this one as fun as the last one {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and uh {vocalsound} I found out that most uh controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the T_V_ presumably because of the cost issue of uh something like uh the same thing that computers use , wireless and , you don't need to send very much information . Um , most of them are powered by some form of battery . Now our one , I'm I'm not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A_ batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I didn't know if you wanted to look at something else um so we could shrink down the size of the control ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Could I {disfmarker} can I interject to ask a question there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that appropriate ? You're saying the triple A_ batteries are small or the {gap} surrounding it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um no no , if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they're quite they're quite chunky and that's because of the size of the batteries ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , the triple A_s are the smallest you can get are they not , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They are ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I'm just wondering about power consumption"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I see ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and how much you need to send the data across ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , and d which leads sort of onto the next point about 'em being small and easy to carry round . Um , now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller . {vocalsound} Now the main components I came up with um were obviously the power source for the batteries 'cause otherwise it's not gonna work , uh as I said about the {disfmarker} w which batteries we were gonna choose , we can uh discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you're putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who's watching the T_V_ unless they're in a cinema , which not most people do so as we're applying to the most audience that should be fine . And then I was uh {disfmarker} just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the uh interface designer . And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we wanna do ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not a proper circuit , I'm not sure if it'd work or not , I'm not even confident that those are the real um the real way you'd wire it up but anyway , we've just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the {vocalsound} uh U_I_ interface um which would basically , when you when you pressed anything it would {disfmarker} the chip would convert it into some form of I_R_ data which could be decoded by the T_V_ receiver , which obviously means that we're gonna have to conform to {vocalsound} whatever um whatever form of communication that the T_V_s are already using and since that that's another use and {disfmarker} reason to use that infrared because that's what all T_V_s use at the moment . And then finally , um we want uh the {disfmarker} it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I've put forward are uh low in cost so that that should be good . Um it should should be different enough um from the alternative products to get a good consumer base , we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about , uh because they're small they're also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of {disfmarker} d dunno some anti-going down the side of the sofa {vocalsound} thing that you could have ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} th that was just sort of a general point there ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} And that's uh {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's a very important part , it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that , whenever you like me to present ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright okay , and yeah , that's that's what I came up with there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , thank you very much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so if you wanna {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , would you like to continue on from that ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ooh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay . It can be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or , maybe move the laptop over ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "okay , that's okay with me . {gap} further . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops . Why's it not working ? F_ eight , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "F_ function ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Function F_ eight yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Mm why's it in the right ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . The plug hasn't come out at the bottom , has it ? No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , it's connecting {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , no yeah it's just {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Meter adjusting ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh , there {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what William's just mention ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but basically my method was like uh whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting , just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we'll uh take a feedback from the marketing because um , I haven't had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable . So purpose , as William already said , I would put it to simplify the interaction with T_V_ to make make it as simple as possible . And to summarise I I would say it's {disfmarker} it should be user-friendly by being easy to use , rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering {gap} maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having uh a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever . But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it , will {gap} this two features together . So what the concept is to have a flip-top model . The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you {disfmarker} you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever , can be put in the middle part of the f flip-top . So it's like {disfmarker} it could be accessed by a wide ra range of uh audience and we can punch in new f features such as uh {disfmarker} added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people . Findings most people prefer us user-friendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like uh people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it's not {disfmarker} of no use of punching in the uh {disfmarker} trying to put in those things in {disfmarker} on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user . As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "with that I think we'll be able to achieve economies of scale also , so we can give in {disfmarker} add in more features and make it less costly . Um , that's {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} if you ask me personally , I would make uh flip-top with a trendy uh uh design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after uh continuous use {disfmarker} usage and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in overall a simple and uh user-friendly design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh any comments like , if you want ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . Um , I think we'll chat about it at the end ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay so if anyone wants to write something down that they want to bring up at the end , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ooh , it's vibrating , that's strange . Oh , God . Right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think you'll have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I got to keep this here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does it matter ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It'll have to {disfmarker} this can't be pulled ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll have t I'll have to move it won't I ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We just do the best we can ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh , whoops ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You'll have to push it a bit more ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Will it manage ? Bit more ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "oh dear . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah this is more than enough . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go , I've got a bit more of the cable {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah I think you can pull it out now ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just pull it closer a little bit ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh you should be able to {gap} and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , you might ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , there you go ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Get it right over , okay , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah . Look at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay , um , I'm going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and uh obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research . {vocalsound} Um , so that's where we started , we used our our usability lab , the company's usability lab , we did our usual selection methods to get a cross-section of the general public , male and female , all age groups from fifteen upwards and um we observed them in the lab , just their general use of the remote control , you can see we had a hundred subjects there . {vocalsound} Our findings , lots of findings , I've just summarised some of them here . The overall thing which I've I've got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls , so it has obvious design implications there . Um , we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy , we were quite surprised by that finding , but um that's quite a high proportion of our our , you know , international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that's a bit nicer looking . Um , current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall . For example , you can see below there , seventy five percent of users zap a lot ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so you've got your person sunk back in the sofa channel-hopping . So again there's power implications there . {vocalsound} Um , fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons , so again a big design issue there . Um and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we don't have so many functions actually on the remote control . Um the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were um something that you you mentioned earlier , uh remote controls are often lost in the room , it's a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing , uh fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that . Uh thirty four percent of people take {disfmarker} said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the um the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons , they just can't be bothered to learn about the other functions . Um , um slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for uh repetitive strain injury . You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems . Um the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like um a liquid crystal display and speech recognition , again that was to aid I think in uh {disfmarker} when they've lost the actual remote control , some kind of speech recognition . Something we didn't put to them , but which I'm thinking of now is um even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light , possibly . Um , that trend reverses in the older age groups . So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features , that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses , they're not so bothered with this . {vocalsound} I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I think I'll just keep it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "if there's any more information I can email you extra details ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap} That's fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that okay ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we have new project requirements , um we're not going to be using teletext ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now . Um {vocalsound} our control is only going to be for T_V_ , it's not going to be a combined control , which limits you know all of the different things that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it limits the cost for us ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , so can we not programme a video with this remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It says for T_V_ only , so {vocalsound} looks like it's just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just channel-hopping ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it , but {vocalsound} I don't know , what do you think ? It just said , for T_V_ only . But I mean , general T_V_ controls do do video as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Would that imply video use ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T yeah yeah . I d well I dunno 'cause uh the w if you've g"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined T_V_ and videos don't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . If yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and if you got if you got a Sky box , they have one of those plus boxes , you can record straight off the T_V_ anyway so on to on to like the T_V_ hard drive or so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . I think we assume that it's still got play and stop functions and {vocalsound} programming ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um we didn't really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about uh ten percent of the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Ten perc"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think th th those do tend to be the basic channel-hopping things and on and off for the video , fast-forwarding , so on"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I think it's sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ju um just as an idea on the uh speech recognition thing that pr it'd probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Pens"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and they're not that great anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "In fact I've just called up that table there ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we asked those two questions , the table relates to both questions , so we didn't differentiate . Would you prefer an L_C_D_ screen , that's multi-function remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and a substantial number of don't knows in the older age group , I think that's just general fear of new technology ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but um on on that again I just thought {disfmarker} 'cause you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it'll let off a loud noise to let you know where it is"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "bu"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so I thought that could be quite a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We do have a budget limitation that we can't control ourselves , so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kinda thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um because it is something I {disfmarker} it needs to be {disfmarker} the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you don't lose , you were saying whistling ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "maybe {vocalsound} on the T_V_ {disfmarker} you could put like a pack on the T_V_ or something so you can't see the remote , you go and press the button on top of the T_V_ and it beeps"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and you're like oh okay it's over there , something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . That's a super idea ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's {disfmarker} that sounds a lot cheaper to me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset . Um so we want logo , we want um fashionable , trendy , I mean what you were talking about with the marketing . Um , people paying more for it to look good . Um , we need to focus on that as well ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is , it's gonna be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who's sixty"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and also across the world if we're aiming at the international market . What is um attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African , I dunno ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "you get the idea . It's it's gonna vary around the world . At the end of the day , th the engineering design is one thing , it's the user interface design that may {disfmarker} and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a single model or maybe five , six designs {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well y yeah you could you could have a number of different designs"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean inside they'd be essentially exactly the same ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The features could be same and the body could look slightly different ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about {disfmarker} you were talking about the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the controls that are coming out now have kind of big , rubber buttons , not tiny little one , big , rubber buttons , but what about , I mean , 'cause we got to make it original , what about um you know with the touch screen computers"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay . Yeah , yeah that's what I was just {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ? Um so you {disfmarker} it's like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which shouldn't wear out as much either , not sure about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , well no 'cause you wouldn't have to {disfmarker} you don't actually have to press them you just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You don't have to press it , you just have to put your thumb onto it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , think that might appeal {disfmarker} I'm thinking kind of Japan , I'm thinking uh young , um office people ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "trendy kind of a thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , but quite , um , easily labelled so that anyone can {gap} oh yeah that's obvious what that's for"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's not daunting to maybe the older generations , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm , mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm . But also er ergonomics as we're saying with the different designs , ergonomics uh there's sort of physically different things 'cause um {vocalsound} if you've ever seen the X_ Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan wouldn't buy it because the controller was physically to big"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Were too big ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "because um {vocalsound} they're c uh just generally Japanese people have smaller hands"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so they couldn't get round the controller which is uh {disfmarker} so if you {disfmarker} I don't know what {disfmarker} 'cause you {disfmarker} obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , uh maybe to {disfmarker} as uh {disfmarker} it it was indicated that uh uh risk uh of uh repeated use , the injuries , maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , a bigger b okay so y you're dividing designs based on not only segment age groups , you're desi uh dividing it according to the countries also , the market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe for U_S_ and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think we have to design one product"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then the company can take it wherever they want to uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "in the sense that they can make it smaller , or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same , yes , absolutely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's gonna be the same , so we need to focus on just one thing , not get bogged down in lots of different um possibilities , um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I'm concerned , when you read the the R_S_I_ issue again , repetitive strain injury , I don't think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough , I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that . Um , R_S_I_ tends to be caused by repetitive small movements ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'm j I really can't get my head round this one ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it's something we should think about ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I {disfmarker} yeah I was just thinking about how you could combat that 'cause {disfmarker} without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . I know , and it becomes ridiculous , yes I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or a speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . Yeah , speech recognition ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which is extremely expensive ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think that's the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Do we have to initially um , you know looking at the findings here , focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later . Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could focus on the biggest market ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ge uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And when we've been throwing up our ideas we're automatically talking about business people , young people , trendy people ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We are {disfmarker} we're talking about um the type of company that we're working for as well . That they want um it to be fashionable ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "they want it to be trendy and you wouldn't automatically assume {disfmarker} associate that with the older generations ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now with the baby boomers , the older generations are actually larger , they have a greater population than us young people ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I don't think we're focusing on that , I think we are focusing on a sort of mid-range um , business kind of class type people ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm . I'm just thinking of budgetary issues too , for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage , we want to , you know , not waste money , not be profligate"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and uh you know focus on where the idea will be taken up , first {disfmarker} it's most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the remote control functions . Um we've got the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we've got the video , now there's um I can't remember what it's called , the little code at the end of programme details ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Video plus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . We could use that as an alternative to programming in times , things like that , is that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I always found that really easy when I discovered it , um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you've got your general record anyway so if you {disfmarker} there's a programme on you want to put record on , that's fine , but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you're not sure if you're going to , you put the number in"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Just whack in the number ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and it's just a number , it's not a date , it's not a time , it's not a channel , it's not when it finishes , it's not anything like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you w {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just a number ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah . And you wouldn't you wouldn't need uh a whole host of extra buttons for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "you just need one 'cause you've already got all the numbers there anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've already got the numbers for typing in anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right , I've not come across that function but it sounds wonderful {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "after um {disfmarker} if you look in the newspaper , T_V_ guide or any T_V_ guide there's a five , six digit number afterwards"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's not {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that's the number you put in and it's recorded that it's going to be on on Tuesdays at ten o'clock on the seventeenth"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ah , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you don't have to worry about dates and you don't have to worry about times ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and it has been around for quite a long time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's been been around for a long time it's just it's not very well advertised as to how to use it and things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No it's not um but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Superb . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Though if y if you've got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it {disfmarker} you can just press the button on the programme once and it'll record that programme when it's on"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you press it on it twice and it'll record the whole series ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Excellent , mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that {disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But just to have that function would be would be really good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me , I don't mean to quickly jump from one subject to another , but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me , {gap} to produce our own mobile phones , that that's kind of what led us on to comparing T_V_ remote controls with with their design features , um , chain companies like Carphone Warehouse , you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you've got any problems with it and they'll fix it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "they'll phone the company , you can use their telephones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar um kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this , if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets , th you know , which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service , would that not make it more attractive to them ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they um {disfmarker} the companies who uh who you deal with have actually {disfmarker} they've they've got an obligation to to help you out"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also {disfmarker} I mean it's it's fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I'm not sure how much the cost would be of having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The functionality of it in the sense that you're sitting there , you're pressing this button and your T_V_'s not doing it . Taking your T_V_ and your control and saying look this is what I'm doing , it's not working , what should I do ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Alright . {vocalsound} Yes"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} If it was something as simple as you couldn't change the channel ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but I mean for {disfmarker} if there were any more {disfmarker} or are we absolutely definite it's only gonna be for T_V_ and video ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we're not gonna put any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} okay , just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Instruction manuals . But I mean they're {disfmarker} there's customer service ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Department , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that way there's no call out charge , there's no extra , t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street , um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to {disfmarker} for a phone maybe he might walk down the street ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not for such simple functions"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah , they should be f yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "because we're focusing on that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . But we should focus on making the manual as user-friendly as possible"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yes okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Simple ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It does ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's the uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then you try and search through it , so that should be something we think about ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sure , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , what other functions ? We need {disfmarker} I'm not sure if we need a design um decision now , but we should think about {disfmarker} c 'cause you've got the dilemma between {disfmarker} oh batteries , that's what I was thinking about . Mobile phone batteries , what kinda battery is that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um they're they're specially made for the for the mobile phones , but they come with a charger , I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they la they they last quite a long time ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and if you had uh {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} th the thing that you get with mobile house phones , you sit it in its charger when you're not using it or t at night or something ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but it doesn't really matter 'cause it never really runs out 'cause it lasts a long time once it is charged ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , something like that should reduce the size of it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and if {disfmarker} yeah if you if you had if you had one of those {disfmarker} uh just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah it could be on that {disfmarker} yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah on that as well so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "S"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "some sort of docking station or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Rechargeable with a docking station ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the rechargeable which would be your field ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah yeah th yeah that that'd be fine ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also that would mean they wouldn't have to go out buying batteries all the time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "which it is cheaper in the long run as well ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , th the shape you got trendy . I don't wanna big box with lots of things , you don't want a tiny sort of little thing either ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much you try and make it simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And we don't w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "They do ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "these long , brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface . We definitely {disfmarker} an ob an obvious thing , a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles , we don't want that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay so we've got a flip-screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h uh came up with almost six or seven years back . Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box , like a chocolate ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up , so they came up with something like this , curled up , so here ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you don't have to {disfmarker} you don't bend your thumb too much , so it's like uh you can say a banana shape kind of thing , curled up like a boat ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Slightly curved , curved ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "G uh so what happens is you don't have to press your thumb too down like . So it's already curled up so your thumb doesn't"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause it's kind of moulded to your hand anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y yeah so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "the way you h hold of {disfmarker} it's kind of semi-circular in the bottom , something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I wouldn't say exactly semi-circular but yeah smooth ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can you look into the company logo ? Um , things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Current ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean for example , if it was a C_ or something like that , you could have it in a vague C_ shape that opens up kind of like a shell , or something ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite um obviously into the design ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "while also making it quite different from anything else that's there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could look in at that but {disfmarker} Mm . What we were talking is to make it more rather than like sea-shells ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean look at the mobile ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "logo could become as {disfmarker} you could put a logo in the corner of uh the model , rather than you know , trying to make it like a sea shell or whatever you were ta telling like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well we need to think about how it's gonna look different ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that sounds a really attractive idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A sea shell ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I've not come across anything like that before , if it kind of {disfmarker} yeah and that opens out into your flip-top ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Then it's nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic , nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you're having to actually insert in between the two covers , that's gonna take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think . I think it's a really nice idea"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah we could look in at that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and plus you can get {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know even though we're using plastic , you can still {disfmarker} I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic , we can do a nice conch shell or scallop shell exterior ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or you could do um different , like you get with mobile phones , different fascias . You could have different kind of casings ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . Mm-hmm . Less chance of it being lost too , it's not like a chocolate brown lozenge that's gonna go down the sofa"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they don't {disfmarker} not gonna lose it so much {vocalsound} either . It's easier to {disfmarker} bit nice to handle ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah maybe we could come at some say five , six des designs and then choose which are {disfmarker} whichever appeals the most like ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "that could be the most common design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we can like think of five , six designs ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right , I think we have to round it up , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Can I just quickly um go over the new project requirements so that I haven't missed anything ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So it's no teletext , it's only for T_V_ and by implication video ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "our corporate image should be incorporated in the remote control , um something about Videoplus ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That was um in cutting down the number {disfmarker} that was kinda separate that was cutting down the number of functions , making it simpler so instead of having lots of things you put in for date {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right . Right . Right , so when they press for programming you {disfmarker} it comes up on the L_C_D_ , a reminder about using Videoplus ? So that they have a look at the guide and {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} is this nothing to do with the project requirements , is this just {disfmarker} that was an add-on feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} kinda takes the place of having a button to press for the date and having the button to press for the channel , things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh-huh . Right . Right , so it's kind of doing away with the programming feature ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um it could be it c It {disfmarker} yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it could be uh adv advertisement feature , um rather than design feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you know , drawing attention to that . And it also paid um lip service in the instruction manual , 'cause it's very simple so putting it down in words should be helpful ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , and the rechargeable batteries ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Was there anything else there that we {disfmarker} in the new new project requirements ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We've got the buttons but I think we'll work through that with the design of it , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . That's not at the moment a requirement , it's something we're looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "what preference {disfmarker} so it may come round to market research at some point to see what people would like ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And we've talked about um there being an alarm or something , a beeping for being lost , um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For detection , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Learning how to use it should be as simple as possible . But there aren't gonna be that func that many functions incorporated into it so it should be fine and the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the instruction manual , I don't know if we deal with that , um . I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and different from what's out there . Yep , I think that's us ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "True ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "What would you specifically like marketing to look at before the next meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Or shall I just sort of generally look at all the issues involved ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think you might get guidance , but um I th Instruction manuals , 'cause there tends to be a demonised thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "u um , they're {disfmarker} everyone's got like a big pile of them , but no one really uses them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Whoops , questionnaire four ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We should f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , right . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think it's time for us to get back to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause we're at lunchtime now I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right , okay . I think you can email me , if there's any more questions . Um and I'll be able to not answer them ."}], "query": "What's the conclusion of the remote control style when discussing market research and adjustments due to new project requirements?", "answer": "Overall, the model style was expected to be trendy and appealing. Marketing and Project Manager agreed on User Interface's design of a flip-screen. Marketing also hoped that the remote control would be slightly curved. User Interface added that the remote control would curl up to users' hands so that their thumbs did not have to press. The corporate logo would be put in the corner. The model would be made of lightweight plastic with a smooth bottom and a nice scallop shell exterior."}, {"id": 240, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What was the general discussion of the meeting?", "answer": "A pressing concern for the group is the DARPA meeting in July, which is only a short time away, and for which they would like to have some progress. PLP results for the front-end look good, with the group also reporting progress in segmentation: Thilo's segmenter will now be used and ways of improving performance investigated; The classifier segmentation is progressing well, especially in the use of prosody for identifying interruption. Work on the front end continues, with improvements of 3-5% being made."}, {"id": 241, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What was decided on DARPA?", "answer": "A pressing concern for the group is the DARPA meeting in July, which is only a short time away, and for which they would like to have some progress. "}, {"id": 242, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What was said on transcripts?", "answer": "For the DARPA meeting in July, the group proposed that they should have the question answering mock-up and transcriber interface ready for then, and also have data available."}, {"id": 243, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What was the status of transcription?", "answer": "The final english SmartKom demo will be presented to the whole institute once the system is de-bugged and stabilised."}, {"id": 244, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What change has occurred to the segmenter?", "answer": "Segmentation for the recogniser has been done by hand which the group consider \"cheating\", instead now they want to use Thilo's automatic segmenter."}, {"id": 245, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What is the status of the segmenter", "answer": "The classifier segmentation work is going well, but needs more data to improve results since non-native speaker data cannot be used."}, {"id": 246, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "What channel am I on ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , channel two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Make sure to turn your microphone on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There 's a battery ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "There we go ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK . Your channel number 's already on this blank sheet ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just {disfmarker} If you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ? Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm on channel five ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Camera one , camera two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "What am I ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Little low ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Channel four ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "This number four ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Channel five . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "The gai the gain 's up at it {disfmarker} what it usually is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but if you think it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's sort of a default . But I can set it higher if you like ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh . Maybe it should be a little higher ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's not showing much . Test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test , test . OK , that {disfmarker} that seems better ? Yeah ? OK , good . Ah , that 's good , that 's good . That 's Ahh . Mmm . So I {disfmarker} I had a question for Adam . Have we started already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we started recording , but {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Is Jane around or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I saw her earlier ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "She can just walk in , I guess , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . She 'll probably come up ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Since we 're starting late I figured we 'd better just start ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Great idea . I was gonna ask Adam to , uh , say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because {vocalsound} it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in {pause} mid July . Uh , but {vocalsound} I don't remember w what we {disfmarker} I know that we were gonna do something with the transcriber interface is one thing , but I thought there was a second thing . Anybody remember ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , we were gonna do a mock - up , like , question answering or something , I thought , that was totally separate from the interface . Do you remember ? Remember , like , asking questions and retrieving , {vocalsound} but in a pre - stored fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That was the thing we talked about , I think , before the transcriber {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Come on in ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Alright . So anyway , you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we 're {disfmarker} got a {disfmarker} got a month left basically . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You like these . Right ? OK , good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Um OK . So , what are we g else we got ? You got {disfmarker} you just wrote a bunch of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No . That was all , um , previously here ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I was writing {pause} the digits and then I realized I could xerox them ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "because I didn't want people to turn their heads from these microphones . So . We all , by the way , have the same digit form , for the record . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , the choice is , uh , which {disfmarker} which do we want more , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the comparison , uh , {vocalsound} of everybody saying them at the same time or the comparison of people saying the same digits at different times that {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's just cuz I didn't have any more digit sheets ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I know that . But , you know , which opportunity should we"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "exploit ? {vocalsound} Unison ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} Actually it might be good to have them separately and have the same exact strings . I mean , we could use them for normalizing or something , but it of course goes more quickly doing them in unison ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I guess we 'll see"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "i I guess it 's dependent on"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "See how long we go ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "how long we go and how good the snack is out there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "But anyway , they won't be identical as somebody is saying zero in some {disfmarker} sometimes , you know , saying O , and so , it 's not i not identical ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Hmm . Get some advance intelligence ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We 'd be like a chorus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We 'd have to get s get some experience ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Greek chorus ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Really {pause} boring chorus . Um . Do we {pause} have an agenda ? Adam usually tries to put those together , but he 's ill ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 've got a couple of things to talk about ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So . Yeah . Uh ju what {disfmarker} what might those be ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , IBM stuff and , um , just getting {vocalsound} uh , meeting information organized ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Meeting info organized . OK . Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Are you implying that it 's currently disorganized ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "In my mind ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Is there stuff that 's happened about , um , uh , the {pause} SRI recognizer et cetera , tho those things that were happening before with {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y y you guys were doing a bunch of experiments with different front - ends and then with {disfmarker} Is {disfmarker} is that still sort of where it was , uh , the other day ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We 're improving ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} You saw the note that the PLP now is getting basically the same as the MFCC ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Actually it looks like it 's getting better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} but it 's not {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Just with {disfmarker} with age , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With age . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , that 's not d directly related to me . Doesn't mean we can't talk about it . Um , it seems {disfmarker} It looks l I haven't {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} The experiment is still not complete , but , um , it looks like the vocal tract length normalization is working beautifully , actually , w using the warp factors that we computed for the SRI system and just applying them to the {vocalsound} ICSI front - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's pretty funny ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So you just need to {pause} copy over to this one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Just had to take the reciprocal of the number because they have different meanings in the two systems ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Ah ! Yeah . Well , that 's always good to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . OK . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and {disfmarker} and Don was , um , as far as meeting recognition is concerned , um , we would really like to , uh , move , uh , to , uh , doing the recognition on automatic segmentations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because in all our previous experiments , we had the {disfmarker} uh , you know , we were essentially cheating by having the , um , you know , the h the hand - segmentations as the basis of the recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And so now with Thilo 's segmenter working so well , I think we should {pause} consider doing a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Come on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , doing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . We {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Y think {disfmarker} you think we should increase the error rate ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Anyway . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "That - that 's what I wanted to do anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "so we should just get together and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And even {disfmarker} The good thing is that since you , um , have high recall , {comment} even if you have low precision cuz you 're over - generating , that 's good because we could train noise models in the recognizer for these kinds of , uh , transients and things that come from the microphones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but {vocalsound} I know that if we run recognition unconstrained on a whole waveform , we do very poorly because we 're {disfmarker} we 're getting insertions in places what {disfmarker} that you may well be cutting out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we do need some kind of pre - segmentation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We should {disfmarker} we should consider doing some extra things , like , um , you know , retraining or adapting the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the models for background noise to the {disfmarker} to this environment , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And , yeah , using Thilo 's , you know , posteriors or some kind of {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "right now they 're {disfmarker} they 're discrete ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "yes or no for a speaker , to consider those particular speaker background models ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So . There 's lots of ins interesting things that could be done ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We should do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good . So , uh , why don't we , uh , do the IBM stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , talked with Brian and gave him the alternatives to the single beep at the end of each utterance that we had generated before ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You had some {pause} thing about that ? Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The , uh , Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . The Chuck chunks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . And so he talked it over with the transcriber and the transcriber thought that the easiest thing for them would be if there was a beep and then the nu a number , a digit , and then a beep , uh , at the beginning of each one"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and that would help keep them from getting lost . And , um , {vocalsound} so Adam wrote a little script to generate those style , uh , beeps"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Where 'd you get the digits from ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and so we 're {disfmarker} I came up here and just recorded the numbers one through ten ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "They sound really good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Does it sound OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's a great idea ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . We just used those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you splice them into the {pause} waveform ? Or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . He {disfmarker} then he d I recorded {disfmarker} Actually , I recorded one through ten three times at three different speeds and then he picked ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "He liked the fastest one , so he just cut those out {vocalsound} and spliced them in between , uh , two beeps ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It sounds like a radio announcer 's voice . Really ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Does it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It will be funny when you 're really reading digits , and then there are the chunks with {disfmarker} with your {pause} digits in ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . With my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh that 's right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Now actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 'll throw them ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "we 're {disfmarker} Are we handling {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , maybe we should have you record A , B , C for those or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . {comment} Huh ! Maybe . And she said it wasn't gonna {disfmarker} the transcriber said it wouldn't be a problem cuz they can actually make a template , uh , that has beep , number , beep . So for them it 'll be very quick"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} to put those in there {vocalsound} when they 're transcribing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um , we {disfmarker} We 're gonna send them one more sample meeting , uh , and Thilo has run his segmentation . Adam 's gonna generate the chunked file . And then , um , I 'll give it to Brian and they can try that out . And when we get that back we 'll see if that sort of fixes the problem we had with , uh , too many beeps in the last transcription ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Do w do {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Do you have any idea of the turn - around on {disfmarker} on those steps you just said ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh . Our s our {disfmarker} On our side ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or including IBM 's ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Including IBM 's ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I don't know . The last one seemed like it took a couple of weeks . Um , maybe even three ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's just the I B M side . Our side is quick . I mean , I {disfmarker} I don't know . How long does your {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It should @ @ be finished today or something . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I meant the overall thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "e e u u {comment} The reason I 'm asking is because , uh , Jane and I have just been talking , and she 's just been doing . {vocalsound} Uh , e a , you know , further hiring of transcribers ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And so we don't sort of really know exactly what they 'll be doing , how long they 'll be doing it , and so forth , because right now she has no choice but to operate in the mode that we already have working ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh , so it 'd be {disfmarker} It 'd be good to sort of get that resolved , uh , soon as we could ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . I {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I hope @ @ {comment} we can get a better estimate from this {pause} one that we send them ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know yet how long that 'll take ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker} I mean in particular I would {disfmarker} I would really hope that when we do this DARPA meeting in July that we sort of have {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're into production mode , somehow {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You know , that we {disfmarker} we actually {vocalsound} have a stream going and we know how {disfmarker} how well it does and how {disfmarker} and how it operates ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I think that would {disfmarker} that would certainly be a {disfmarker} a very good thing to know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Uh . Maybe before we do the meeting info organize thing , maybe you could say relevant stuff about where we are in transcriptions ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK . So , um , we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , the transcribers have continued to work past what I 'm calling \" set one \" , which was the s the set that I 've been , uh {disfmarker} OK , talking about up to this point , but , uh , they 've gotten five meetings done in that set . Right now they 're in the process of being edited . Um , the , um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I hired two transcribers today . I 'm thinking of hiring another one , which will {disfmarker} because we 've had a lot of attrition . And that will bring our total to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They die off after they do this for a while ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . Well , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's various things ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Burn - out ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So , one of them had a baby . Um , you know , one of them really w wasn't planning {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , that was an unfor unforeseen side effect of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Eh , one of them , um , had never planned to work past January . I mean , it 's th all these various things , cuz we , you know , we presented it as possibly a month project back in January and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Um , so it makes sense . Uh , through attrition we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} we 're down to {disfmarker} to two , but they 're really solid . We 're really lucky the two that we kept . And , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't mean {disfmarker} I don't mean anything against the others . {comment} What I mean is we 've got a good cause {disfmarker} a good core . No . We had a good core {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , they won't hear this since they 're going . They won't be transcribing this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah , but still . I mean , I d it 's just a matter of we {disfmarker} w we 're {disfmarker} we 've got , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No backs ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "two of the ones who {disfmarker} who , um , ha had been putting in a lot of hours up to this point and they 're continuing to put in a {disfmarker} a lot of hours , which is wonderful , and excellent work . And so , then , in addition , um , I hired two more today and I 'm planning to h hire a third one with this {disfmarker} within this coming week , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but the plan is {disfmarker} just as , uh , Morgan was saying we discussed this , and the plan right now is to keep the staff on the {disfmarker} on the leaner side , you know , rather than hiring , like , eight to ten right now ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because if the IBM thing comes through really quickly , then , um , we wouldn't wanna have to , uh , you know , lay people off and stuff . So . And this way it 'll {disfmarker} I mean , I got really a lot of response for {disfmarker} for my notice and I think I could hire additional people if I {pause} wish to ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . An - and the other thing is , I mean , in the unlikely event {disfmarker} and since we 're so far from this , it 's a little hard to plan this way {disfmarker} in the unlikely event that we actually find {vocalsound} that we have , uh , transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because , you know , there 's , you know , {vocalsound} all the stuff that {disfmarker} that was sitting there has been transcribed and they 're {disfmarker} and they 're faster {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline is faster than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , than the generation , um , eh , i in {disfmarker} in the day {disfmarker} e event that that day actually dawns , uh , I {disfmarker} I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh , yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} that , eh , eh , a as we were talking , if we {disfmarker} if we hire twelve , then we could , you know , run into a problem later . I mean , we also just couldn't sustain that forever . But {disfmarker} but , um {disfmarker} for all sorts of reasons {disfmarker} but if we hire f you know , f we have five on staff {disfmarker} five or six on staff at any given time , then {vocalsound} it 's a small enough number so we can be flexible either way ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Good . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 'd be great , too , if , um , we can {disfmarker} we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand {disfmarker} to experiment with , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , to have a ground truth for this segmentation work , which {disfmarker} I guess you have some already that was really helpful , and we could probably use more ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm , yeah . That was a thing I {disfmarker} I planned working on , is , uh , to use the {disfmarker} the transcriptions which are done by now , and to {disfmarker} to use them as , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh . Oh , the new ones"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "with the tighter boundaries . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . And to use them for {disfmarker} for training a {disfmarker} or for {disfmarker} fo whatever . Yeah . To {disfmarker} to create some speech - nonspeech labels out of them , and {disfmarker} Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that 's a thing w was {disfmarker} w what I 'm just looking into ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pre - segmentations are so much {disfmarker} are s so extremely helpful . Now there was , uh , I g guess {disfmarker} So , a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation {disfmarker} f for just very few days you were away . But it happened to be during that time I needed one ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "so I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so I started them on the non - pre - segmented and then switched them over to yours and , um , they , um {disfmarker} you know , they always appreciate that when they have that available . And he 's , uh , usually , eh , uh , um {disfmarker} Um . So they really appreciate it . But I was gonna say that they do adjust it once in a while . You know , once in a while there 's something like ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah , sure ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "um , and e Actually you talked to them . Didn't you ? Did you ? Have you {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . I talked to Helen ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and she was {disfmarker} And so , I asked her {disfmarker} I mean , They 're very perceptive . I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers . I haven't done it yet , but I wanna do that and she 's out of town , um , for a couple of weeks , but I wanna do that when she returns . Um , cuz she was saying , you know , in a {disfmarker} in a span of very short period {disfmarker} we asked {disfmarker} It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these things , and she was saying the short utterances , uh , the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Mmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "you know , I mean , you 're {disfmarker} You 're aware of this . But {disfmarker} but actually i it 's so correct for so much of the time , that it 's an enormous time saver"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries . So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um . Yeah . I think it 'd be interesting to combine these ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean , you can compare , do a diff on the {disfmarker} just so that we {vocalsound} knew {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "You could do it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's complicated in that {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} hhh , i hhh , i"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Actually , when {disfmarker} when they create new {disfmarker} yeah , new segments or something , it will be , uh , not that easy but {disfmarker} hmm . I think {pause} one could do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , if we keep a old copy of the old time marks"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "just so that if we run it we know whether we 're {disfmarker} which ones were cheating"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . That would be great , yeah , to know that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "There is a {disfmarker} there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they 've done with the pre - segmented version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which one would be good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "So it 's not a pure {disfmarker} it 's not a pure condition . Wha - what you 'd really like is that they started with pre - segmented and were pre - segmented all the way through ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And , um {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it wasn't possible for about four of the recent ones . But , it will be possible in the future"}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "because we {disfmarker} we 're , um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "It would ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , that 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . As long as we have a record , I guess , of the original {pause} automatic one , we can always find out how well {pause} we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You know , a completely non - cheating version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Also if you need someone to record this meeting , I mean , I 'm happy to {disfmarker} for the transcribers {disfmarker} I could do it , or Chuck or Adam ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So , uh , u you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So , um , uh , Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the {pause} directory structure for all of the meeting {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Did you record it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No . For all the Meeting Recorder data . We should have . Um . And so we 've got a plan for what we 're gonna do there . And then , Jane also s prepared a {disfmarker} um , started getting all of the {disfmarker} the meetings organized , so she prepared a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a spreadsheet , which I spent the last couple of days adding to . So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far , and have been putting it into , uh , a spreadsheet {vocalsound} with start time , the date , the old meeting name , the new meeting name , the number of speakers , the duration of the meeting , comments , you know , what its transcription status is , all that kind of stuff . And so , the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what 's going on ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , I 've gotta get some more information from Jane cuz I have some {disfmarker} some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in , but {vocalsound} so far , um , {vocalsound} as of Monday , the fourteenth , um , we 've had a total number of meeting sixty - two hours of meetings that we have collected . And , um {disfmarker} Uh , some other interesting things , average number of speakers per meeting is six . Um , and I 'm gonna have on here the total amount that 's been transcribed so far , but I 've got a bunch of {disfmarker} uh , that 's what I have to talk to Jane about , figuring out exactly which ones have {disfmarker} have been completed and so forth . But , um , {vocalsound} this 'll be a nice thing that we can put up on the {disfmarker} the web site and people can {vocalsound} be informed of the status of various different ones . And {vocalsound} it 'll also list , uh , like under the status , if it 's at IBM or if it 's at ICSI , uh , or if it 's completed or which ones we 're excluding and {disfmarker} and there 's a place for comments , so we can , {vocalsound} um , say why we 're excluding things and so forth . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Now would the ones that , um , are already transcribed {disfmarker} we h we have enough there that c you know , we 've already done some studies and so forth and {disfmarker} um , shouldn't we go through and do the business - es u of {disfmarker} of having the , um , uh , participants approve it , uh , for {disfmarker} approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Um , interesting idea . In principle , I {disfmarker} I would say yes , although I still am doing some {disfmarker} the final - pass editing , trying to convert it over to the master file as the {disfmarker} being the channelized version and it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes {comment} and I have to stop . Cleaning up the things like the , uh , uh , places where the transcriber was uncertain , and {disfmarker} and doing spot - checking here and there . So , um , uh , I guess it would make sense to wait until th that 's done , um , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I did with the , uh , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the pipeline ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , we are gonna have this DARPA {pause} meeting in the middle of July ,"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and I think it w it 'd be {disfmarker} given that we 've been {disfmarker} we 've given a couple public talks about it already , spaced by months and months , I think it 'd be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "It 'll certainly be done by then . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . So we can s we {disfmarker} we wanna be able to say \" here is a subset that is available right now \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and that 's has been through the legal issues and so forth ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That 's right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah . That 's right . So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , by {disfmarker} before July ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And they don't have to approve , you know , th an edited version , they can just give their approval to whatever version"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , maybe {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , in principle , yes . But , I mean , i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Bu Yeah . But th I mean , the editing will continue . Presumably if {disfmarker} if s errors are found , they will be fixed , but they won't change the {disfmarker} the content of the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Content , really ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , see , this is the {disfmarker} this is the issue . Subtleties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , i if Jane is clarifying question question , then , you know , how can they agree to it before they know her final version ?"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "The other thing , too , is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word , which @ @ {comment} could 've been transcribed in the other way ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Thing {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "And no and they wouldn't have {vocalsound} been slanderous if it had been this other word . You know ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I it {disfmarker} you know , there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because , you know , you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say , you know , that should be a period and not a question mark . Right ? And you don't {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's no way that we 're gonna go back and ask everybody \" do you approve this , uh , you know {disfmarker} this document now ? \" So {disfmarker} So I think what it is is that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that they sign {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't looked at it in a while , but it has to be open enough that it sort of says \" OK , from now on {disfmarker} you know , now that I 've read this , you can use {disfmarker} do anything you want with these data . \""}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} But , i I think we wanna {disfmarker} So , assuming that it 's in that kind of wording , which I don't remember , {vocalsound} um , I think i we just wanna have enough confidence ourselves that it 's so close to the final form it 's gonna be in , a year from now that they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm . I agree . Mmm . I totally agree . It 's just , uh , a question of , {vocalsound} uh , if {disfmarker} if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous , {vocalsound} then it seems like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re - listening to the meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Because it becomes , eh , in a way a {disfmarker} a f uh , a legal document i if they 've agreed to that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , I forget how we end Right . I forget how we ended up on this , but I remember my taking the position {vocalsound} of not making it so {disfmarker} so easy for everybody to observe everything and Adam was taking the position of {disfmarker} of having it be really straightforward for people to check every aspect of it including the audio . And I don't remember who won , Adam or me , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} if it 's only the transcript , though {disfmarker} I mean , th this {disfmarker} this is my point , that {disfmarker} that"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "uh , the {disfmarker} Uh , that that 's why I 'm bringing this up again , because I can't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "then it becomes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That it was the transcrip He wanted to do a web interface that would make it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Well , if it 's just the audio {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "that would give you access to the transcript and the audio . That 's what Adam wanted ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I don't remember how we ended up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , with the web interface it 's interesting , because you could allow the person who signs to be informed when their transcript changes , or something like that . And , I mean , I would say \" no \" . Like , I don't wanna know , but some people might be really {vocalsound} interested and then y In other words , they would be informed if there was some significant change other than typos and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "You decided you were whispering Satanic incantations under your breath when you were {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , {vocalsound} I don't know what happened to the small heads thing , but I j {vocalsound} Um , I 'm just saying that , like , you know , you can sort of say that any things that are deemed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "They disappeared from view ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway . I mean , I agree that at some point people {vocalsound} probably won't care about typos but they would care about significant meaning changes and then they could be asked for their consent , I guess , if {disfmarker} if those change . Cuz assumi {vocalsound} assuming we {disfmarker} we don't really distribute things that have any significant changes from what they sign anyway ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Tha That 's {disfmarker} How about having them approve the audio and not the transcripts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Oh , my God ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "That would be simpler ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "if we could count on them listening ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But no one will listen to the hours and hours of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Talk ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's O K ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "We just have to give them a chance to listen to it , and if they don't , that 's their problem ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "hmm , hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "You {disfmarker} you d That 's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Unfortunately , uh , in {disfmarker} in the sign thing that they signed , it says \" transcripts \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , I 'm serious ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "\" You 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be provided the transcripts when they 're available . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Really ?"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I I {disfmarker} I think"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "that 's a lot to ask for people that have been in a lot of meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "W anyway , haven't we {disfmarker} we 've gone down this path a number of times . I know this can lead to extended conversations and {disfmarker} and not really get anywhere , so let {disfmarker} let me just suggest that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , off - line that , uh , the people involved figure it out and take care of it before it 's July ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So {disfmarker} so that in July we can tell people {vocalsound} \" yes , we have this and you can use it \" ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yes . It 's done , ready , available . Good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . So , let 's see . What else we got ? Uh . Don did {disfmarker} did a report about his project in class and , uh {disfmarker} an oral and written {disfmarker} written version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that was stuff he was doing with you . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I guess one thing we 're learning is that the amount {disfmarker} We have eight meetings there because we couldn't use the non - native {disfmarker} all non - native meetings and {vocalsound} it 's , well , probably below threshold on enough data for us for the things we 're looking at because the {vocalsound} prosodic features are {pause} very noisy and so you {disfmarker} you need a lot of data in order to model them . Um , so we 're starting to see some patterns and we 're hoping that maybe with , {vocalsound} I don't know , double or triple the data {disfmarker} with twenty meetings or so , that we would start to get better results . But we did find that some of the features that , I gue Jane would know about , that are expressing sort of the {vocalsound} distance of , um , {vocalsound} boundaries from peaks in the utterance and {vocalsound} some {pause} local , um , range {disfmarker} pitch range effects , like how close people are to their floor , are showing up in these classifiers , which are also being given some word features that are cheating , cuz they 're true words . Um , so these are based on forced alignment . Word features like , um , word frequency and whether or not something 's a backchannel and so forth . So , we 're starting to see , I think , some interesting patterns ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So the dominant features , including everything , were those {disfmarker} those quasi - cheating things . Right ? Where these are {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Sometimes not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I think it depends what you 're looking at , a actually ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . Sometimes {pause} positions in sentences obviously , or in spurts , was helpful . I don't know if that 's cheating , too ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Spurts wouldn't be . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "spurts is not cheating except that of course you know the real words ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "but roughly speaking , the recognized words are gonna give you a similar type of position ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right . Would they give you the same number of words , though ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "It 's either early or late ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Not exactly , but i"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "But ra somewhat ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "On the average ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Y yeah it should be . Well , we don't know and actually that 's one of the things we 're interested in doing , is a sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Have you tried using just time , as opposed to number of words ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I think ti uh {disfmarker} Just p time position , like when the word starts ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "I don't know if that was in the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , no , I mean t time {disfmarker} time position relative to the beginning of the spurt ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Eh {disfmarker} You know , uh"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Start ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah . There 's all these things to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "uh , we didn't try it , but it 's s"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Like , there 's a lot of different features you could just pull out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I mean that wouldn't be cheating because you can detect pause {pause} pretty well within the time ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "How about time position normalized by speak"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And it depends on speaking rate {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "speaking rate . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That 's actually why I didn't use it at first ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "But we {disfmarker} one of the interesting things was I guess you reported on some te punctuation type {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "finding sentence boundaries , finding disfluency boundaries , and then I had done some work on finding from the foreground speech whether or not someone was likely to interrupt , so where {disfmarker} you know , if I 'm talking now and someone {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and Andreas is about to interrupt me , is he gonna choose a certain place in my speech , either prosodically or word - based . And there the prosodic features actually showed up and a neat thing {disfmarker} even though the word features were available . And a neat thing there too is I tried some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} putting the speaker {disfmarker} So , I gave everybody {vocalsound} a short version of their name . So the real names are in there , which we couldn't use . Uh , we should use I Ds or something . And those don't show up . So that means that overall , um , it wasn't just modeling Morgan , or it wasn't just modeling a single person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "um , but was sort of trying to , {vocalsound} uh , get a general idea {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the tree classifier was trying to find general locations that were applicable to different speakers , even though there are huge speaker effects . So . The {disfmarker} but the main limitation now is I {disfmarker} because we 're only looking at things that happen every {vocalsound} ten words or every twenty words , we need more {disfmarker} more data and more data per speaker . So . It 'd also be interesting to look at the EDU meetings because we did include meeting type as a feature , so whether you were in a r Meeting Recorder meeting or a Robustness meeting did matter {vocalsound} to {pause} interrupts because there are just fewer interrupts in the Robustness meetings ."}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And so the classifier learns more about Morgan than it does about sort of the average person ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "which is {vocalsound} not bad . It 'd probably do better than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um , but it wasn't generalizing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} And I think Don , um {disfmarker} Well , we have a long list of things he 's starting to look at now over the summer , where we can {disfmarker} And he 'll be able to report on more things {pause} in the future . But it was great that we could at least go from the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , Jane 's transcripts and the , {vocalsound} uh , recognizer output and get it {pause} to this point . And I think it 's something Mari can probably use in her preliminary report {disfmarker} like , \" yeah , we 're at the point where we 're training these classifiers and we 're just {vocalsound} reporting very preliminary but suggestive results that {vocalsound} some features , both word and pro prosodic , work . \" The other thing that was interesting to me is that the pitch features are better than in Switchboard . And I think that really is from the close - talking mikes , cuz the pitch processing that was done has much cleaner behavior than {disfmarker} than the Switchboard telephone bandwidth ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "W wh wh wh Better in what sense ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Um . Well , first of all , the pitch tracks are m have less , um , halvings and doublings than {disfmarker} than Switchboard and there 's a lot less dropout , so if you ask how many regions where you would normally expect some vowels to be occurring {vocalsound} are completely devoid of pitch information ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . "}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "in other words the pitch tracker just didn't get a high enough probability of voicing for words {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for , you know , five word"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "there are much fewer than in Switchboard . So the missing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We had a big missing data problem in Switchboard and , so the features weren't as reliable cuz they were often just not available ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Could it have to do with the {disfmarker} the lower frequency cut - off on the Switchboard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that 's actually good . Ma - maybe . I mean , the tele we had telephone bandwidth for Switchboard and we had the an annoying sort of telephone handset movement problem that I think may also affect it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So we 're just getting better signals in {disfmarker} in this data . Which is nice . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Anyway , Don 's been doing a great job and we hope to continue with , um , Andreas 's help and also some of Thilo 's help on this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Y"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "to {disfmarker} to try to get a non - cheating version of how all this would work ."}, {"speaker": "PhD E", "content": "Yeah . Sure . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Has {disfmarker} has , uh {disfmarker} ? We just {disfmarker} I think , just talked about this the other day , but h has {disfmarker} has anybody had a chance to try changing , uh , insertion penalty sort of things with the {disfmarker} with the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , using the tandem system input for the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , yeah . I tried that . It didn't , um , help dramatically . The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Were they out of balance ? I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't notice ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There were a little {disfmarker} the relative number of {disfmarker} I think there were a higher number of deletions , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , you , uh {disfmarker} So , actually it {disfmarker} it preferred to have a positive {disfmarker} er , negative insertion penalty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Deletions ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which means {vocalsound} that , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , you know , it didn't change {vocalsound} th the {disfmarker} by adjusting that {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The error changed by probably one percent or so . But , you know , given that that word error rate is so high , that 's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . So that {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} So that 's not the problem ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's not the problem . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But , uh , we s just , um , uh {disfmarker} you know , Chuck and I talked and the {pause} @ @ {comment} next thing to do is probably to tune the {disfmarker} um , the size of the Gaussian system , um , @ @ {comment} to {disfmarker} to this {disfmarker} to this feature vector , which we haven't done at all . We just used the same {vocalsound} configuration as we used for the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the standard system ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , {vocalsound} for instance , uh , Dan {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Dan just sent me a message saying that CMU used , um , {vocalsound} something like ten Gaussians per cluster {disfmarker} You know , each {disfmarker} each mixture has ten {pause} Gaussians"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm . We 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} and we 're using sixty - four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so that 's {vocalsound} obviously a big difference"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and it might be way off and give very poorly trained , uh , you know , Gaussians that way ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "uh , an and poorly trained mixture weights . So {disfmarker} so , we have {disfmarker} The turn - around time on the training when we train only the {disfmarker} a male system with , uh , you know , our small training set , is {vocalsound} less than twenty - four hours , so we can run lots of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , basically just brute force , try a whole bunch of different um , settings ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And , uh , with the new machines it 'll be even better . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . We get twelve of those ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "huh ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But the PLP features work {disfmarker} um , uh , you know , continue to improve the ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} As I said before , the {disfmarker} uh using Dan 's , uh , uh , vocal tract normalization option works very well . So , um , @ @ {comment} I ran one experiment where we 're just {vocalsound} did the vocal tract le normalization only in the test data ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so I didn't bother to retrain {pause} the models at all , and it improved by one percent , which is about what we get with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with , you know , just @ @ {comment} actually doing both training and test normalization , um , with , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the standard system . So , in a few hours we 'll have the numbers for the {disfmarker} for retraining everything with vocal tract length normalization and {disfmarker} So , that might even improve it further ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , it looks like the P L - fea P features {comment} do very well now with {disfmarker} after having figured out all these little tricks to {disfmarker} to get it to work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Wait . So you mean you improve one percent over a system that doesn't have any V T L in it already ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Exactly . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . OK . So then {disfmarker} then we 'll have our baseline to {disfmarker} to compare the currently hideous , uh , uh , new thing with ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right . a Right . And {disfmarker} and what that suggests also is of course that the current Switchboard {pause} MLP isn't trained on very good features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , because it was trained on whatever , you know , was used , uh , last time you did Hub - five stuff , which didn't have any of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . But all of these effects were j like a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? I mean , y the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but if you add them all up you have , uh , almost five percent difference now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Add {pause} all of them . I thought one was one point five percent and one was point eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And now we have another percent with the V T"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's three point three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , actually , and it 's ,  um , What 's actually qu interesting is that with {disfmarker} um , well , you m prob maybe another half percent if you do the VTL in training , and then interestingly , if you optimize you get more of a win out of rescoring the , um , {vocalsound} uh , the N best lists , uh , and optimizing the weights , um , uh than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Than you do with the standard ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . But the part that 's actually adjustment of the front - end per se as opposed to doing {disfmarker} putting VTLN in or something is {disfmarker} it was a couple percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there was one thing that was one and a half percent and one that was point eight . So {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} let me see if I remember what they were . One of them {vocalsound} was , uh , the change to , uh {disfmarker} because it did it all at once , {comment} to {disfmarker} uh , from bark scale to mel scale ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "which I really feel like saying in quotes , because @ @ {comment} they 're essentially the same scale but the {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but any i individual particular implementation of those things puts things in a particular place ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . Why did that cha ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that 's why I wanted to look {disfmarker} I still haven't looked at it yet . I {disfmarker} I wanna look at exactly where the filters were in the two ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's probably something like there 's one fewer or one more filter in the sub {vocalsound} one kilohertz band"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and for whatever reason with this particular experiment it was better one way or the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um , it could be there 's something more fundamental but it {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I don't know it yet . And the other {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} that was like one and a half or something , and then there was point eight percent , which was {disfmarker} what was the other thing ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , that was combined with the triangular . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Those {disfmarker} those two were together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We d weren't able to separate them out cuz it was just done in one thing . But then there was a point eight percent which was something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The low - frequency cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Do you remember the {disfmarker} ? Oh , yeah . So that was {disfmarker} that was , uh {disfmarker} that one I can claim credit for , uh , i in terms of screwing it up in the first place . So that someone e until someone else fixed it , which is that , um , I never put {disfmarker} when I u We had some problems before with offsets . This inf this went back to , uh , I think Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So we {disfmarker} we had , uh {disfmarker} ea everybody else who was doing Wall Street Journal knew that there were big DC offsets in th in these data {disfmarker} in those data and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and nobody happened to mention it to us ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and we were getting these , like , really terrible results , like two , three times the error everybody else was getting . And then in casual conversation someone ment mentioned \" uh , well , I guess , you know , of course you 're taking care of the offsets . \" I said \" what offsets ? \""}, {"speaker": "Grad B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And at that point , you know , we were pretty new to the data and we 'd never really , like , looked at it on a screen and then when we just put it on the screen {comment} and wroop !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "there 's this big DC offset . So , um , in PLP"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "There was a {disfmarker} like a hum or some or {disfmarker} when they recorded it ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . It 's just , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not at all uncommon for {disfmarker} for recorded electronics to have different , um , DC offsets ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Or just {disfmarker} ? Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , no big deal . It 's {disfmarker} you know , you could have ten , twenty , maybe thirty millivolts , whatever , and it 's consistently in there . The thing is , most people 's front - ends have pre - emphasis with it , with zero at zero frequency , so that it 's irrelevant . Uh , but with P L P , we didn't actually have that . We had {disfmarker} we had the equivalent of pre - emphasis in a {disfmarker} a , uh , Fletcher - Munson style weighting that occurs in the middle of P L but it doesn't actually have a zero at zero frequency ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "like , eh , uh , typical simple fr pre - emphasis does . We had something more fancy . It was later on it didn't have that . So at that point I reali \" oh sh we better have a {disfmarker} have a high - pass filter \" just , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} just take care of the problem . So I put in a high - pass filter at , uh , I think ninety {disfmarker} ninety hertz or so {vocalsound} uh , for a sixteen kilohertz sampling rate . And I never put anything in to adjust it for different {disfmarker} different sampling rates . And so {disfmarker} well , so , you know , the code doesn't know anything about that and so this is all at eight kilohertz and so it was at forty - five hertz instead of at {disfmarker} {vocalsound} instead of at ninety ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , um , I don't know if Dan fixed it or {disfmarker} or , uh , what he {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , he made it a parameter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He made it a parameter . So . Yeah , I guess if he did it right , he did fix it and then {disfmarker} and then it 's taking care of sampling rate , which is great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What {disfmarker} what is the parameter ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "He had a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it , uh , just the f lower cut - off that you want ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's called , uh , {vocalsound} H - HPF ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "H {disfmarker} Yeah . Does HPF on {disfmarker} on his feat feature ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u And {disfmarker} but HPF , you know , when you put a number after it , uses that as the hertz value of the cut - off ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , frankly , we never did that with the RASTA filter either ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so the RASTA filter is actually doing a different thing in the modulation spectral domain depending on what sampling rate you 're doing , which is {vocalsound} another old {disfmarker} old bug of mine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} Um . So that {disfmarker} that was the problem there was th we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we had always intended to cut off below a hundred hertz"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and it just wasn't doing it , so now it is . So , {vocalsound} that hep that helped us by , like , eight tenths of a percent . It {pause} still wasn't a big deal ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Well , but , um {disfmarker} Well , uh , again , after completing the {pause} current experiments , we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can add up all the uh differences"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} an"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , I guess my {disfmarker} my point was that {disfmarker} that , um , the hybrid system thing that we did was , uh , primitive in many ways ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "And I think I agree with you that if we fixed lots of different things and they would all add up , we would probably have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a competitive system . But I think not that much of it is due to the front - end per se . I think maybe a couple percent of it is , as far as I can see from this ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , unless you call {disfmarker} well , if you call VTL the front - en front - end , that 's , uh , a little more . But that 's sort of more both , kind of ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "One experiment we should {disfmarker} we 'll probably need to do though when {disfmarker} um , at some point , is , since we 're using that same {disfmarker} the net that was trained on PLP without all these things in it , for the tandem system , we may wanna go back and retrain ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right ? But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , that 's what I meant , in fact . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , yeah , for the tandem . You know , so we can see if it {disfmarker} what effect it has on the tandem processing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} so , the thing is {disfmarker} is do we expect {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "eh At this point I 'm as I mean , you know {disfmarker} e I 'm wondering is it {disfmarker} Can we expect , uh , a tandem system to do better than a properly trained {disfmarker} you know , a Gaussian system trained directly on the features with , you know , the right ch choice of {pause} parameters ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , that 's what we 're seeing in other areas . Yes . Right ? So , it 's {disfmarker} so , um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , we {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but we may not . I mean , if it doesn't perform as well , we may not know why . Right ? Cuz we need to do the exact experiment ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean , the reason to think it should is because you 're putting in the same information and you 're transforming it to be more discriminative . So . Um . Now the thing is , in some databases I wouldn't expect it to necessarily give you much and {disfmarker} and part of what I view as the real power of it is that it {pause} gives you a transformational capability {vocalsound} for taking all sorts of different wild things that we do , not just th the standard front - end , but other things , like with multiple streams and so forth ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and allows you to feed them to the other system with this {disfmarker} through this funnel . Um , so I think {disfmarker} I think that 's the real power of it . I wouldn't expect huge in huge improvements . Um , but it should at least be roughly the same and maybe a little better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "If it 's , you know , like way way worse then , you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , Morgan , an another thing that Andreas and I were talking about was , so @ @ {comment} in the first experiment that he did {vocalsound} we just took the whole fifty - six , uh , outputs and that 's , um , basically compared to a thirty - nine input feature vector from either MFCC or PLP ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But one thing we could do is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Let {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} let me just ask you something . When you say take the fifty - six outputs , these are the pre final nonlinearity {pause} outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Through the regular tandem outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and they 're {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} through the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through the KLT . All that kinda stuff ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . And so {disfmarker} so then you u Do you use all fifty - six of the KLT"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's what we did ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "or {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ? So one thing we were wondering is , if we did principal components and , say , took out just thirteen , and then did deltas and double - deltas on that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so we treated the th first thirteen as though they were {vocalsound} standard features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yes . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , did Dan do experiments like that to {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh . Talk with Stephane . He did some things like that . It was either him or Carmen . I forget ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I mean these were all different databases and different {disfmarker} you know , in HTK and all that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "so i it {disfmarker} it may not apply . But my recollection of it was that it didn't make it better but it didn't make it worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But , again , given all these differences , maybe it 's more important in your case that you not take a lot of these low - variance , uh , components ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz in a sense , the net 's already got quite a bit of context in those features ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so if we did deltas and double - deltas on top of those , we 're getting sort of even more ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Which could be good or not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Worth trying ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But there the main point is that , um , you know , it took us a while but we have the procedure for coupling the two systems {vocalsound} debugged now and {disfmarker} I mean , there 's still conceivably some bug somewhere in the way we 're feeding the tandem features {disfmarker} uh , either generating them or feeding them to this {disfmarker} to the {vocalsound} SRI system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "There might be , cuz that 's a pretty big difference ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And I 'm wondering how we can {disfmarker} how we can debug that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "But"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean how {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm actually f quite sure that the {disfmarker} feeding the {pause} features into the system and training it up ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "What if {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that 's essentially the same as we use with the ce with the P L P fe features . And that 's obviously working great . So . I um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . There could be a bug in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} somewhere before that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "There {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} another degree of freedom is how do you generate the K L T transform ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ? We to"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "well , and another one is the normalization of the inputs to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "These nets are trained with particular normalization and when that gets screwed up it {disfmarker} it can really hurt it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I 'm doing what Eric {disfmarker} E Eric coached me through then {disfmarker} that part of it , so I 'm pretty confident in that ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , the only slight difference is that I use normalization values that , um , Andreas calculated from the original {comment} PLP ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "which is right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "N Yeah . So , I u I do {disfmarker} Oh , we actually don't do that normalization for the PLP , do we ? For the st just the straight PLP features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . The {disfmarker} the SRI system does it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S R I system does that . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Right . Well , you might e e"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , there 's {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} there is room for bugs that we might not have discovered ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I would actually double check with Stephane at this point ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "cuz he 's probably the one here {disfmarker} I mean , he and Dan are the ones who are at this point most experienced with the tandem"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "thing and there may {disfmarker} there may be some little bit here and there that is not {disfmarker} not being handled right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . It 's hard with features , cuz you don't know what they should look like . I mean , you can't just , like , print the {disfmarker} the values out in ASCII and , you know , look at them , see if they 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not unless you had a lot of time"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "eh , and also they 're not {disfmarker} I mean , as I understand it , you {disfmarker} you don't have a way to optimize the features for the final word error . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I mean , these are just discriminative , but they 're not , um , optimized for the final {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They 're optimized for phone discrimination , not for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right . So it {disfmarker} there 's always this question of whether you might do better with those features if there was a way to train it for the word error metric that you 're actually {disfmarker} that you 're actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "That 's right . Well , the other {disfmarker} Yeah , th the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , you actually are . But {disfmarker} but it {disfmarker} but in an indirect way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Well , right . It 's indirect , so you don't know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So wha w what {disfmarker} an and you may not be in this case , come to think of it , because , uh , you 're just taking something that 's trained up elsewhere . So , what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} what you do in the full procedure {vocalsound} is you , um , uh , have an embedded training . So in fact you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the net is trained on , uh , uh , a , uh , Viterbi alignment of the training data that comes from your full system . And so that 's where the feedback comes all around , so that it is actually discriminant . You can prove that it 's {disfmarker} it 's a , uh {disfmarker} If you believe in the Viterbi assumption that , uh , getting the best path , uh , is almost equivalent to getting the best , uh , total probability , um , then you actually do improve that by , uh {disfmarker} by training up on local {disfmarker} local , uh {disfmarker} local frames . But , um , we aren't actually doing that here , because we did {disfmarker} we did that for a hybrid system , and now we 're plugging it into another system and so it isn't {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i i it wouldn't quite apply here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do y"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So another huge experiment we could do would be to take the tandem features , uh , do SRI forced alignments using those features , and then re - do the net with those ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Mmm , uh {disfmarker} Exactly . Exactly ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "So that you can optimize it for the word error ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Another thing is since you 're not using the net for recognition per se but just for this transformation , it 's probably bigger than it needs to be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So that would save a lot of time ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And there 's a mismatch in the phone sets . So , you 're using a l a long a larger phone set than what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Actually all those things could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could {disfmarker} could , uh {disfmarker} could affect it as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "The other thing , uh , just to mention that Stephane {disfmarker} this was an innovation of Stephane 's , which was a pretty neat one , uh , and might particularly apply {vocalsound} here , given all these things we 're mentioning . Um , Stephane 's idea was that , um , discriminant , uh , approaches are great . Even the local ones , given , you know , these potential outer loops which , you know , you can convince yourself turn into the global ones . Um , however , there 's times when it {pause} is not good . Uh , when {pause} something about the test set is different enough from the training set that {disfmarker} that , uh , the discrimination that you 're learning is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not a good one ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So , uh , his idea was to take as the input feature vector to the , uh , Gaussian mixture system , {vocalsound} uh , a concatenation of the neural net outputs and the regular features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , we already talked about that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "El"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Didn't you {disfmarker} did you {pause} do that already"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . No , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker} when I first started corresponding with Dan about how to go about this , I think that was one of the things that we definitely went there ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or {disfmarker} ? Oh . That makes a lot of sense . Huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I 'm sure that Stephane wasn't the first to think of it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but actually Stephane did it"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh . And i does it help ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and it helped a lot ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's our current best {disfmarker} best system in the , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , in the Aurora thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And do you do a KLT transform on the con on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "As {disfmarker} you should never do worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I , uh , missed what you said ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Do you {disfmarker} d you do a KLT transform on the combined feature vector ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , actually , I , uh {disfmarker} you should check with him , because he tried several different combinations ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because you end up with this huge feature vector , so that might be a problem , a unless you do some form of dimensionality reduction ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Yeah . I , uh , th what I don't remember is which came out best . So he did one where he put o put e the whole thing into one KLT , and another one , since the {disfmarker} the PLP things are already orthogonalized , he left them alone and {disfmarker} and just did a KLT on the {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the net outputs"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "and then concatenated that . And I don't remember which was better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Did he {disfmarker} did he try to {disfmarker} ? So he always ended up with a feature vector that was {pause} twice as long as either one of the {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No . I don't know , i I {disfmarker} I don't know . You have to check with him ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "OK . Actually , I have to run ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I 'm into big ideas these days ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "We need to close up cuz I need to save the data and , um , get a call ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Not to mention the fact that we 're missing snacks . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Did people wanna do the digits"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "or , um , do them together ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "I {disfmarker} I g I think , given that we 're in a hurry for snacks , maybe we should do them together ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "I don't know . Should we just {disfmarker} ? OK . I mean , are we trying to do them {nonvocalsound} in synchrony ? That might be fun ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} You know , it 's not gonna work out"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Adam 's not here , so he 's not here to tell me no ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "but we could {disfmarker} we could just , uh , uh , see if we find a rhythm , you know , what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Uh , O 's or zeroes , we wanna agree on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Maybe just whatever people would naturally do ? I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Oh , but if we were a singing group , we would wanna decide . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Be harmony . Yeah . {comment} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Mine 's identical to yours ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "We might wa"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "Sorry . So I set up and we didn't have {pause} enough digit forms"}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "So these are excellent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "so I xeroxed the same one seven times ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Oh . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Why don't we do zer i Anyone have a problem with saying zero ? Is zero OK ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Postdoc A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "OK . One and a two and three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "e"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "Once more with feeling ."}, {"speaker": "PhD G", "content": "And th"}, {"speaker": "Professor F", "content": "No , just k just kidding . Oh , yeah . It was ."}], "query": "What change has occurred to the segmenter?", "answer": "To improve the performance of Thilo's automatic segmenter, this is going to be retrained and adapted to run with Thilo's posteriors and speaker background models."}, {"id": 247, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "Summarize the meeting", "answer": "The team was coming close to finalizing the model for Aurora. They were still trying to make some improvements to improve their score. The team began with a discussion about how reverberation could be better accounted for. The professor thought that experimenting with different filters could help achieve a better signal-to-noise ratio. The new system for estimating silence probabilities that the team had added to the model was very effective, but it created a 220ms latency in the VAD. The team was not sure what kinds of constraints would be placed on latency eventually. They wanted to play it safe. The models, over all, were performing well, though the team intended to keep improving them. The team was also trying to figure out how to deal with different kinds of background noise. The meeting ended with a discussion of logistical issues."}, {"id": 248, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion on deletions and improving the net", "answer": "Adding the neural net was doubling the number of deletions. The model did not improve significantly, however, thought it became better at some tasks. The results were a mixed basket and it was decided that further experimentation was necessary."}, {"id": 249, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "What did the professor think about the neural net?", "answer": "The professor was interested in knowing what impact the neural net had in the older models which did not have pure features. The professor believed it was worthwhile to improve the net, though he also expressed that nets were occasionally over used."}, {"id": 250, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "What did the team discuss about the most noisy cases?", "answer": "The team thought that the most noisy cases were the distant microphone testing. That is when there were non-stationary noises in the background, like from a car, a babble or subway. These presented a unique challenge for the model that could potentially be best solved with a neural net."}, {"id": 251, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion on VAD results", "answer": "The VAD neural net had twelve times nine inputs and two outputs. The system had improved significantly. It added some latency but the team could potentially run it in parallel."}, {"id": 252, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "What did the professor think about VAD latency?", "answer": "The professor wanted to know how much latency the VAD was adding to the model. The professor thought that the process could work in parallel. The professor informed the team that the max latency was unknown."}, {"id": 253, "transcript": [{"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , we 're going ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Eight , eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "This is three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Three ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Test . Hmm . Let 's see . Move it bit . Test ? Test ? OK , I guess it 's alright . So , let 's see . Yeah , Barry 's not here and Dave 's not here . Um , I can say about {disfmarker} just q just quickly to get through it , that Dave and I submitted this ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is for ASRU ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So . Um . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting . I mean , basically we 're dealing with rever reverberation , and , um , when we deal with pure reverberation , the technique he 's using works really , really well . Uh , and when they had the reverberation here , uh , we 'll measure the signal - to - noise ratio and it 's , uh , about nine DB . So ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You mean , from the actual , uh , recordings ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a fair amount of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "k"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "It 's nine DB ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} And actually it brought up a question which may be relevant to the Aurora stuff too . Um , I know that when you figured out the filters that we 're using for the Mel scale , there was some experimentation that went on at {disfmarker} at , uh {disfmarker} at OGI . Um , but one of the differences that we found between the two systems that we were using , {comment} the {disfmarker} the Aurora HTK system baseline system {comment} and the system that we were {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh , other system we were using , the uh , the SRI system , was that the SRI system had maybe a , um , hundred hertz high - pass . And the , uh , Aurora HTK , it was like twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep . S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - four ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , if you 're using the baseline ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is that the ba band center ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , the edge ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The edge is really , uh , sixty - four ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For some reason , uh , Dave thought it was twenty ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " So the , uh , center would be somewhere around like hundred"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} hundred {disfmarker} hundred and {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} fi hundred hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But do you know , for instance , h how far down it would be at twenty hertz ? What the {disfmarker} how much rejection would there be at twenty hertz , let 's say ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At twenty hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , any idea what the curve looks like ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Twenty hertz frequency {disfmarker} Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's zero at twenty hertz , right ? The filter ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yea - actually , the left edge of the first filter is at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Sixt - s sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So anything less than sixty - four is zero ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's actually set to zero ? What kind of filter is that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is this {disfmarker} oh , from the {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} This is the filter bank in the frequency domain that starts at sixty - four ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so you , uh {disfmarker} so you really set it to zero , the FFT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a weight on the ball spectrum . Triangular weighting ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . OK . Um {disfmarker} OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's a little different than Dave thought , I think . But {disfmarker} but , um , still , it 's possible that we 're getting in some more noise . So I wonder , is it {disfmarker} @ @ Was there {disfmarker} their experimentation with , uh , say , throwing away that filter or something ? And , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , throwing away the first ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , yeah , we {disfmarker} we 've tried including the full {disfmarker} full bank . Right ? From zero to four K ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that 's always worse than using sixty - four hertz ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the question is , whether sixty - four hertz is {disfmarker} is , uh , too , uh , low ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I mean , make it a hundred or so ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I t I think I 've tried a hundred and it was more or less the same , or slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the same , uh , SpeechDat - Car , Aurora ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , it was on the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So I tried a hundred to four K . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and on {disfmarker} and on the , um , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits also ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , no , no . I think I just tried it on SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mmm . That 'd be something to look at sometime because what , um , eh , he was looking at was performance in this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Would that be more like {disfmarker} Well , you 'd think that 'd be more like SpeechDat - Car , I guess , in terms of the noise . The SpeechDat - Car is more , uh , sort of roughly stationary , a lot of it . And {disfmarker} and TI - digits maybe is not so much as {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Well , maybe it 's not a big deal . But , um {disfmarker} Anyway , that was just something we wondered about . But , um , uh , certainly a lot of the noise , uh , is , uh , below a hundred hertz . Uh , the signal - to - noise ratio , you know , looks a fair amount better if you {disfmarker} if you high - pass filter it from this room ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um {disfmarker} but it 's still pretty noisy . Even {disfmarker} even for a hundred hertz up , it 's {disfmarker} it 's still fairly noisy . The signal - to - noise ratio is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is actually still pretty bad ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , um , I mean , the main {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's on th that 's on the f the far field ones though , right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's on the far field . Yeah , the near field 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So wha what is , uh {disfmarker} what 's causing that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we got a {disfmarker} a video projector in here , uh , and , uh {disfmarker} which we keep on during every {disfmarker} every session we record ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "which , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w we were aware of"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but we thought it wasn't a bad thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , that 's a nice noise source . Uh , and there 's also the , uh {disfmarker} uh , air conditioning ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which , uh , you know , is a pretty low frequency kind of thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} So , those are {disfmarker} those are major components , I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh , for the stationary kind of stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , but , um , it , uh {disfmarker} I guess , I {disfmarker} maybe I said this last week too but it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it really became apparent to us that we need to {disfmarker} to take account of noise . And , uh , so I think when {disfmarker} when he gets done with his prelim study I think {vocalsound} one of the next things we 'd want to do is to take this , uh {disfmarker} uh , noise , uh , processing stuff and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , synthesize some speech from it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When are his prelims ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} Um , I think in about , um , a little less than two weeks ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh . Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Uh , it might even be sooner . Uh , let 's see , this is the sixteenth , seventeenth ? Yeah , I don't know if he 's before {disfmarker} It might even be in a week ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "A week ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh . I {disfmarker} I guessed that they were gonna do it some time during the semester"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "week and a half ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but they 'll do it any time , huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They seem to be {disfmarker} Well , the semester actually is starting up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is it already ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , the semester 's late {disfmarker} late August they start here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yikes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they do it right at the beginning of the semester ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker} Yep . I mean , that {disfmarker} that was sort of one {disfmarker} I mean , the overall results seemed to be first place in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the case of either , um , artificial reverberation or a modest sized training set . Uh , either way , uh , i uh , it helped a lot . And {disfmarker} But if you had a {disfmarker} a really big training set , a recognizer , uh , system that was capable of taking advantage of a really large training set {disfmarker} I thought that {disfmarker} One thing with the HTK is that is has the {disfmarker} as we 're using {disfmarker} the configuration we 're using is w s is {disfmarker} being bound by the terms of Aurora , we have all those parameters just set as they are . So even if we had a hundred times as much data , we wouldn't go out to , you know , ten or t or a hundred times as many Gaussians or anything . So , um , it 's kind of hard to take advantage of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of big chunks of data . Uh , whereas the other one does sort of expand as you have more training data ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It does it automatically , actually . And so , um , uh , that one really benefited from the larger set . And it was also a diverse set with different noises and so forth . Uh , so , um , that , uh {disfmarker} that seemed to be {disfmarker} So , if you have that {disfmarker} that better recognizer that can {disfmarker} that can build up more parameters , and if you , um , have the natural room , which in this case has a p a pretty bad signal - to - noise ratio , then in that case , um , the right thing to do is just do {disfmarker} u use speaker adaptation . And {disfmarker} and not bother with {disfmarker} with this acoustic , uh , processing . But I think that that would not be true if we did some explicit noise - processing as well as , uh , the convolutional kind of things we were doing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So . That 's sort of what we found ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , started working on the uh {disfmarker} Mississippi State recognizer . So , I got in touch with Joe and {disfmarker} and , uh , from your email and things like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , uh , they added me to the list {disfmarker} uh , the mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And he gave me all of the pointers and everything that I needed . And so I downloaded the , um {disfmarker} There were two things , uh , that they had to download . One was the , uh , I guess the software . And another wad {disfmarker} was a , um , sort of like a sample {disfmarker} a sample run . So I downloaded the software and compiled all of that . And it compiled fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Eight ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No problems ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , eh , great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And , um , I grabbed the sample stuff but I haven't , uh , compiled it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That sample was released only yesterday or the day before , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} Well , I haven't grabbed that one yet . So there 's two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , there is another short sample set {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "There was another short one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o sample ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so I haven't grabbed the latest one that he just , uh , put out yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK . Oh , OK . F Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Um , but , the software seemed to compile fine and everything , so . And , um , So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is there any word yet about the issues about , um , adjustments for different feature sets or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No , I {disfmarker} I d You asked me to write to him and I think I forgot to ask him about that . Or if I did ask him , he didn't reply ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't remember yet . Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll d I 'll double check that and ask him again ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , it 's like that {disfmarker} that could r turn out to be an important issue for us ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Maybe I 'll send it to the list . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Cuz they have , uh , already frozen those in i insertion penalties and all those stuff is what {disfmarker} I feel . Because they have this document explaining the recognizer ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And they have these tables with , uh , various language model weights , insertion penalties ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK , I haven't seen that one yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it 's th it 's there on that web ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And , uh , on that , I mean , they have run some experiments using various insertion penalties and all those {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so they 've picked {disfmarker} the values ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , I think they pi p"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah , they picked the values from {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "For r w what test set ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , p the one that they have reported is a NIST evaluation , Wall Street Journal ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But that has nothing to do with what we 're testing on , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "You know . No . So they 're , like {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} So they are actually trying to , uh , fix that {disfmarker} those values using the clean , uh , training part of the Wall Street Journal . Which is {disfmarker} I mean , the Aurora . Aurora has a clean subset ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , they want to train it and then this {disfmarker} they 're going to run some evaluations ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So they 're set they 're setting it based on that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . So now , we may come back to the situation where we may be looking for a modification of the features to account for the fact that we can't modify these parameters ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} but it 's still worth , I think , just {disfmarker} since {disfmarker} you know , just chatting with Joe about the issue ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , OK . Do you think that 's something I should just send to him"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "or do you think I should send it to this {disfmarker} there 's an {disfmarker} a m a mailing list ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's not a secret . I mean , we 're , you know , certainly willing to talk about it with everybody , but I think {disfmarker} I think that , um {disfmarker} um , it 's probably best to start talking with him just to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh @ @ {comment} you know , it 's a dialogue between two of you about what {disfmarker} you know , what does he think about this and what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} what could be done about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , if you get ten people in {disfmarker} involved in it there 'll be a lot of perspectives based on , you know , how {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} But , I mean , I think it all should come up eventually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there is any , uh , uh , way to move in {disfmarker} a way that would {disfmarker} that would , you know , be more open to different kinds of features . But if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} if there isn't , and it 's just kind of shut down and {disfmarker} and then also there 's probably not worthwhile bringing it into a larger forum where {disfmarker} where political issues will come in ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh . So this is now {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's compiled under Solaris ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because he {disfmarker} there was some mail r saying that it 's {disfmarker} may not be stable for Linux and all those ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , i that was a particular version ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "SUSI"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , SUSI or whatever it was"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "yeah . Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but we don't have that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So . Should be OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "OK , that 's fine ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , it compiled fine actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No {disfmarker} no errors . Nothing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , this is slightly off topic"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "That 's good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , I noticed , just glancing at the , uh , Hopkins workshop , uh , web site that , uh , um {disfmarker} one of the thing I don't know {disfmarker} Well , we 'll see how much they accomplish , but one of the things that they were trying to do in the graphical models thing was to put together a {disfmarker} a , uh , tool kit for doing , uh r um , arbitrary graphical models for , uh , speech recognition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So {disfmarker} And Jeff , uh {disfmarker} the two Jeffs were"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Who 's the second Jeff ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} Oh , uh , do you know Geoff Zweig ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh . Uh , he {disfmarker} he , uh {disfmarker} he was here for a couple years"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and he , uh {disfmarker} got his PHD . He {disfmarker} And he 's , uh , been at IBM for the last couple years ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . That would be neat ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , so he did {disfmarker} he did his PHD on dynamic Bayes - nets , uh , for {disfmarker} for speech recognition . He had some continuity built into the model , presumably to handle some , um , inertia in the {disfmarker} in the production system , and , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I 've been playing with , first , the , um , VAD . Um , {vocalsound} so it 's exactly the same approach , but the features that the VAD neural network use are , uh , MFCC after noise compensation . Oh , I think I have the results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What was it using before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Before it was just P L"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it was actually {disfmarker} No . Not {disfmarker} I mean , it was just the noisy features I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "noisy {disfmarker} noisy features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "not compensated ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} This is what we get after {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} So , actually , we , yeah , here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter . Um , and then it 's a pretty small neural network which use , um , {vocalsound} nine frames of {disfmarker} of six features from C - zero to C - fives , plus the first derivatives . And it has one hundred hidden units ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is that nine frames u s uh , centered around the current frame ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "S so , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's how many {disfmarker} how many inputs ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So it 's twelve times nine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twelve times nine inputs , and a hundred , uh , hidden ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hidden and"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "two outputs ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two outputs . OK . So I guess about eleven thousand parameters , which {disfmarker} actually shouldn't be a problem , even in {disfmarker} in small phones . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} s so what is different between this and {disfmarker} and what you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It should be OK . So the previous syst It 's based on the system that has a fifty - three point sixty - six percent improvement . It 's the same system . The only thing that changed is the n a p eh {disfmarker} a es the estimation of the silence probabilities ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Which now is based on , uh , cleaned features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , it 's a l it 's a lot better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not bad , but the problem is still that the latency is too large ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What 's the latency ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds . And , uh , the VAD is used uh , i for on - line normalization , and it 's used before the delta computation . So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} I 'm confused . You started off with two - twenty and you ended up with one - seventy ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "With two an two hundred and seventy ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Two - seventy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If {disfmarker} Yeah , if you add the c delta comp delta computation"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is done afterwards . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's two - twenty . I the is this {disfmarker} are these twenty - millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The two - twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the um {disfmarker} No , it 's forty milliseconds for t for the , uh , uh , cleaning of the speech . Um {disfmarker} then there is , um , the neural network which use nine frames . So it adds forty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "a OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , after that , um , you have the um , filtering of the silence probabilities . Which is a million filter it , and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay . So , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Plus there is a delta at the input ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , and there is the delta at the input which is ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "One hundred milliseconds for smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "um {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , median ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's like forty plus {disfmarker} forty {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then forty {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Forty {disfmarker} This forty plus twenty , plus one hundred ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty p "}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it 's two hundred actually ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , there are twenty that comes from {disfmarker} There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , so it 's two hundred and ten , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are using {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Plus the frame ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "t If you are using three frames {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so it 's two - twenty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "If you are phrasing f {comment} using three frames , it is thirty here for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's five frames , but ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So five frames , that 's twenty . OK , so it 's who un {comment} two hundred and ten ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , p Wait a minute . It 's forty {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forty for the {disfmarker} for the cleaning of the speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . Forty cleaning ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "forty for the I N {disfmarker} ANN , a hundred for the smoothing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , but at ten {disfmarker} ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Twenty for the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Twenty for delta ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At th {nonvocalsound} At the input . I mean , that 's at the input to the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Delta at input to net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And there i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So it 's like s five , six cepstrum plus delta at nine {disfmarker} nine frames of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then ten milliseconds for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Fi - There 's an LDA filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "ten milliseconds for LDA filter , and t and ten {disfmarker} another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "For the frame I guess . I computed two - twenty {disfmarker} Yeah , well , it 's {disfmarker} I guess it 's for the fr {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And then there 's delta besides that ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards , you have to compute the delta on the , uh , main feature stream ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is um , delta and double - deltas , which is fifty milliseconds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . No , I mean , the {disfmarker} after the noise part , the forty {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the other hundred and eighty {disfmarker} Well , I mean , Wait a minute . Some of this is , uh {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is in parallel , isn't it ? I mean , the LDA {disfmarker} Oh , you have the LDA as part of the V D - uh , VAD ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The VAD use , uh , LDA filtered features also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , it does ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Ah . So in that case there isn't too much in parallel . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . There is , um , just downsampling , upsampling , and the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , so the delta at the end is how much ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's fifty ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Fifty . Alright . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But well , we could probably put the delta , um , {vocalsound} before on - line normalization . It should not that make a big difference ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you used a smaller window for the delta ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Could that help a little bit ? I mean , I guess there 's a lot of things you could do to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but , nnn {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if you {disfmarker} if you put the delta before the , uh , ana on - line {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} Yeah {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "uh {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then it could go in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Cuz i"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then y then you don't have that additive {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "cuz the time constant of the on - line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "so . It should not make {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK . And you ought to be able to shove tw , uh {disfmarker} sh uh {disfmarker} pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred , right ? I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Is two hundred the d"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The hundred milla"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount . It could be eighty and {disfmarker} and probably do @ @ {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "i a hun"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "uh {disfmarker} Wh - what 's the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know . They 're still arguing about it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , if it 's two {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} if it 's two - fifty , then we could keep the delta where it is if we shaved off twenty . If it 's two hundred , if we shaved off twenty , we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , meet it by moving the delta back ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , how do you know that what you have is too much if they 're still deciding ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , we don't , but it 's just {disfmarker} I mean , the main thing is that since that we got burned last time , and {disfmarker} you know , by not worrying about it very much , we 're just staying conscious of it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Oh , OK , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , th I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if a week before we have to be done someone says , \" Well , you have to have fifty milliseconds less than you have now \" , it would be pretty frantic around here . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But still , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a pretty big , uh , win . And it doesn't seem like you 're {disfmarker} in terms of your delay , you 're , uh , that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "He added a bit on , I guess , because before we were {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker} had {disfmarker} were able to have the noise , uh , stuff , uh , and the LVA be in parallel ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now he 's {disfmarker} he 's requiring it to be done first ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , but I think the main thing , maybe , is the cleaning of the speech , which takes forty milliseconds or so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Well , so you say {disfmarker} let 's say ten milliseconds {disfmarker} seconds for the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} the LDA is , well , pretty short right now ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , ten . And then forty for the other ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , the LDA {disfmarker} LDA {disfmarker} we don't know , is , like {disfmarker} is it very crucial for the features , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No . I just {disfmarker} This is the first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean , I {disfmarker} maybe the LDA 's not very useful then ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so you could start pulling back ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "S s h"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I think you have {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "l"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you have twenty for delta computation which y now you 're sort of doing twice , right ? But yo w were you doing that before ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . Well , in the proposal , um , the input of the VAD network were just three frames , I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Just {disfmarker} Yeah , just the static , no delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , static features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , what you have now is fort uh , forty for the {disfmarker} the noise , twenty for the delta , and ten for the LDA . That 's seventy milliseconds of stuff which was formerly in parallel ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right ? So I think ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the difference as far as the timing , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and you could experiment with cutting various pieces of these back a bit , but {disfmarker} I mean , we 're s we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not in terrible shape ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , that 's what it seems like to me . It 's pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not like it 's adding up to four hundred milliseconds or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Where {disfmarker} where is this {disfmarker} where is this fifty - seven point O two in {disfmarker} in comparison to the last evaluation ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's better than anything , uh , anybody got ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . The best was fifty - four point five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Point s"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Uh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And our system was forty - nine , but with the neural network ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow . So this is almost ten percent ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "With the f with the neural net . Yeah , and r and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It would"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is {disfmarker} this is like the first proposal . The proposal - one . It was forty - four , actually ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . And we still don't have the neural net in . So {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Wow ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You know . So it 's {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is really good ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we 're getting better recognition . I mean , I 'm sure other people working on this are not sitting still either , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , the important thing is that we learn how to do this better , and , you know . So . Um , Yeah . So , our , um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can see the kind of {disfmarker} kind of numbers that we 're having , say , on SpeechDat - Car which is a hard task , cuz it 's really , um {disfmarker} I think it 's just sort of {disfmarker} sort of reasonable numbers , starting to be . I mean , it 's still terri"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , even for a well - matched case it 's sixty percent error rate reduction ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Probably half . Good !"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Yeah . So actually , this is in between {vocalsound} what we had with the previous VAD and what Sunil did with an IDL VAD . Which gave sixty - two percent improvement , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it 's almost that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It 's almost an average somewhere around {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What was that ? Say that last part again ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , if you use , like , an IDL VAD , uh , for dropping the frames ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "o o Or the best we can get ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "the best that we can get {disfmarker} i That means that we estimate the silence probability on the clean version of the utterances . Then you can go up to sixty - two percent error rate reduction , globally ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that would be even {disfmarker} That wouldn't change this number down here to sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So you {disfmarker} you were get"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If you add a g good v very good VAD , that works as well as a VAD working on clean speech ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "then you wou you would go {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's sort of the best you could hope for ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Probably . Yeah . So fi si fifty - three is what you were getting with the old VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh {disfmarker} and sixty - two with the {disfmarker} the , you know , quote , unquote , cheating VAD . And fifty - seven is what you got with the real VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That 's great ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah , the next thing is , I started to play {disfmarker} Well , I don't want to worry too much about the delay , no . Maybe it 's better to wait"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "for the decision"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "from the committee . Uh , but I started to play with the , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , tandem neural network . Mmm I just did the configuration that 's very similar to what we did for the February proposal . And {disfmarker} Um . So . There is a f a first feature stream that use uh straight MFCC features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , these features actually . And the other stream is the output of a neural network , using as input , also , these , um , cleaned MFCC . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those are th those are th what is going into the tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't have the comp Mmm ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Those two ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So there is just this feature stream , {comment} the fifteen MFCC plus delta and double - delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , so it 's {disfmarker} makes forty - five features {comment} that are used as input to the HTK . And then , there is {disfmarker} there are more inputs that comes from the tandem MLP ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh . OK . I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , h he likes to use them both ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz then it has one part that 's discriminative ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "one part that 's not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , um , uh , yeah . Right now it seems that {disfmarker} i I just tested on SpeechDat - Car while the experiment are running on your {disfmarker} on TI - digits . Well , it improves on the well - matched and the mismatched conditions , but it get worse on the highly mismatched . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Compared to these numbers ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Compared to these numbers , yeah . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "y"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "like , on the well - match and medium mismatch , the gain is around five percent relative , but it goes down a lot more , like fifteen percent on the HM case ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You 're just using the full ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": " The {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Y you have ninety features ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "i I have , um {disfmarker} From the networks , it 's twenty - eight . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And from the other side it 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , d i It 's forty - five ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} you have seventy - three features ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you 're just feeding them like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There isn't any KLT or anything ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . There 's a KLT after the neural network , as {disfmarker} as before ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's how you get down to twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Why twenty - eight ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . It 's {disfmarker} i i i It 's because it 's what we did for the first proposal . We tested , uh , trying to go down"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a multiple of seven ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I wanted to do something very similar to the proposal as a first {disfmarker} first try ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . That makes sense ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But we have to {disfmarker} for sure , we have to go down , because the limit is now sixty features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , uh , we have to find a way to decrease the number of features . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , it seems funny that {disfmarker} I don't know , maybe I don't u quite understand everything , {comment} but that adding features {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I guess if you 're keeping the back - end fixed . Maybe that 's it . Because it seems like just adding information shouldn't give worse results . But I guess if you 're keeping the number of Gaussians fixed in the recognizer , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , I mean , just in general , adding information {disfmarker} Suppose the information you added , well , was a really terrible feature and all it brought in was noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? So {disfmarker} so , um {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} or suppose it wasn't completely terrible , but it was completely equivalent to another one feature that you had , except it was noisier ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? In that case you wouldn't necessarily expect it to be better at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , yeah , I wasn't necessarily saying it should be better . I 'm just surprised that you 're getting fifteen percent relative worse on the wel"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But it 's worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "On the highly mismatched condition ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "On the highly mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , \" highly mismatched condition \" means that in fact your training is a bad estimate of your test ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So having {disfmarker} having , uh , a g a l a greater number of features , if they aren't maybe the right features that you use , certainly can e can easily , uh , make things worse . I mean , you 're right . If you have {disfmarker} if you have , uh , lots and lots of data , and you have {disfmarker} and your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your training is representative of your test , then getting more sources of information should just help . But {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't necessarily work that way ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So I wonder , um , Well , what 's your {disfmarker} what 's your thought about what to do next with it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , I don't know . I 'm surprised , because I expected the neural net to help more when there is more mismatch , as it was the case for the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , was the training set same as the p the February proposal ? OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it 's the same training set , so it 's TIMIT with the TI - digits ' , uh , noises , uh , added ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we might {disfmarker} uh , we might have to experiment with , uh better training sets . Again . But ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I {disfmarker} The other thing is , I mean , before you found that was the best configuration , but you might have to retest those things now that we have different {disfmarker} The rest of it is different , right ? So , um , uh , For instance , what 's the effect of just putting the neural net on without the o other {disfmarker} other path ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , you know what the straight features do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That gives you this . You know what it does in combination ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You don't necessarily know what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What if you did the {disfmarker} Would it make sense to do the KLT on the full set of combined features ? Instead of just on the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . I g I guess . Um . The reason I did it this ways is that in February , it {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we tested different things like that , so , having two KLT , having just a KLT for a network , or having a global KLT ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you tried the global KLT before"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "and it didn't really {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . And , uh , th Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The differences between these configurations were not huge , but {disfmarker} it was marginally better with this configuration ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , that 's obviously another thing to try ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "since things are {disfmarker} things are different ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And I guess if the {disfmarker} These are all {disfmarker} so all of these seventy - three features are going into , um , the , uh {disfmarker} the HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And is {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} i i are {disfmarker} are any deltas being computed of tha of them ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Of the straight features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "n Not of the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But n th the , um , tandem features are u used as they are ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Are not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , maybe we can add some context from these features also as {disfmarker} Dan did in {disfmarker} in his last work ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Could . i Yeah , but the other thing I was thinking was , um {disfmarker} Uh , now I lost track of what I was thinking . But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What is the {disfmarker} You said there was a limit of sixty features or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's the relation between that limit and the , um , forty - eight {disfmarker} uh , forty eight hundred bits per second ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , I know what I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , not {disfmarker} no relation ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No relation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't understand ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The f the forty - eight hundred bits is for transmission of some features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "because i I mean , if you 're only using h"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "And generally , i it {disfmarker} s allows you to transmit like , fifteen , uh , cepstrum ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The issue was that , um , this is supposed to be a standard that 's then gonna be fed to somebody 's recognizer somewhere which might be , you know , it {disfmarker} it might be a concern how many parameters are use {disfmarker} u used and so forth . And so , uh , they felt they wanted to set a limit . So they chose sixty . Some people wanted to use hundreds of parameters and {disfmarker} and that bothered some other people ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "u And so they just chose that . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's kind of r arbitrary too . But {disfmarker} but that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of what was chosen . I {disfmarker} I remembered what I was going to say . What I was going to say is that , um , maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe with the noise removal , uh , these things are now more correlated . So you have two sets of things that are kind of uncorrelated , uh , within themselves , but they 're pretty correlated with one another ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , they 're being fed into these , uh , variants , only Gaussians and so forth , and {disfmarker} and , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so maybe it would be a better idea now than it was before to , uh , have , uh , one KLT over everything , to de - correlate it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , I see ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe . You know ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "What are the S N Rs in the training set , TIMIT ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's , uh , ranging from zero to clean ? Yeah . From zero to clean ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So we found this {disfmarker} this , uh {disfmarker} this Macrophone data , and so forth , that we were using for these other experiments , to be pretty good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} i after you explore these other alternatives , that might be another way to start looking , is {disfmarker} is just improving the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , we were getting , uh , lots better recognition using that , than {disfmarker} Of course , you do have the problem that , um , u i {comment} we are not able to increase the number of Gaussians , uh , or anything to , uh , uh , to match anything . So we 're only improving the training of our feature set , but that 's still probably something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , add the Macrophone data to the training of the neural net ? The tandem net ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , that 's the only place that we can train ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "We can't train the other stuff with anything other than the standard amount ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so . Um , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what was it trained on again ? The one that you used ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's TIMIT with noise ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , yeah , it 's rather a small {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "How big is the net , by the way ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um , Uh , it 's , uh , five hundred hidden units . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And again , you did experiments back then where you made it bigger and it {disfmarker} and that was {disfmarker} that was sort of the threshold point . Much less than that , it was worse ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "much more than that , it wasn't much better . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . @ @ ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So is it {disfmarker} is it though the performance , big relation in the high ma high mismatch has something to do with the , uh , cleaning up that you {disfmarker} that is done on the TIMIT after adding noise ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": ""}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} i All the noises are from the TI - digits ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "right ? So you {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} k uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it it 's like the high mismatch of the SpeechDat - Car after cleaning up , maybe having more noise than the {disfmarker} the training set of TIMIT after clean {disfmarker} s after you do the noise clean - up ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean , earlier you never had any compensation , you just trained it straight away ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it had like all these different conditions of S N Rs , actually in their training set of neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "But after cleaning up you have now a different set of S N Rs , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "For the training of the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} is it something to do with the mismatch that {disfmarker} that 's created after the cleaning up , like the high mismatch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "You mean the {disfmarker} the most noisy occurrences on SpeechDat - Car might be a lot more noisy than {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm . Of {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , the SNR after the noise compensation of the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , so {disfmarker} Right . So the training {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the neural net is being trained with noise compensated stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": " Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which makes sense ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but , uh , you 're saying {disfmarker} Yeah , the noisier ones are still going to be , even after our noise compensation , are still gonna be pretty noisy ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so now the after - noise compensation the neural net is seeing a different set of S N Rs than that was originally there in the training set . Of TIMIT . Because in the TIMIT it was zero to some clean ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . Yes ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So the net saw all the SNR @ @ conditions ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Now after cleaning up it 's a different set of SNR ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And that SNR may not be , like , com covering the whole set of S N Rs that you 're getting in the SpeechDat - Car ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right , but the SpeechDat - Car data that you 're seeing is also reduced in noise by the noise compensation ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , it is . But , I 'm saying , there could be some {disfmarker} some issues of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , if the initial range of SNR is different , we {disfmarker} the problem was already there before . And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Because {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , it depends on whether you believe that the noise compensation is equally reducing the noise on the test set and the training set ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "On the test set , yeah . "}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ? I mean , you 're saying there 's a mismatch in noise that wasn't there before ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but if they were both the same before , then if they were both reduic reduced equally , then , there would not be a mismatch ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , I mean , this may be {disfmarker} Heaven forbid , this noise compensation process may be imperfect , but . Uh , so maybe it 's treating some things differently ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} that could be seen from the TI - digits , uh , testing condition because , um , the noises are from the TI - digits , right ? Noise {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So cleaning up the TI - digits and if the performance goes down in the TI - digits mismatch {disfmarker} high mismatch like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "on a clean training , or zero DB testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , we 'll {disfmarker} so we 'll see . Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Maybe ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Then it 's something to do ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , one of the things about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , the Macrophone data , um , I think , you know , it was recorded over many different telephones ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , um , so , there 's lots of different kinds of acoustic conditions . I mean , it 's not artificially added noise or anything . So it 's not the same . I don't think there 's anybody recording over a car from a car , but {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's varied enough that if {disfmarker} if doing this adjustments , uh , and playing around with it doesn't , uh , make it better , the most {disfmarker} uh , it seems like the most obvious thing to do is to improve the training set . Um {disfmarker} I mean , what we were {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} the condition {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it gave us an enormous amount of improvement in what we were doing with Meeting Recorder digits , even though there , again , these m Macrophone digits were very , very different from , uh , what we were going on here . I mean , we weren't talking over a telephone here . But it was just {disfmarker} I think just having a {disfmarker} a nice variation in acoustic conditions was just a good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , actually {vocalsound} to s eh , what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases . It {disfmarker} it doubles ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Number of deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions . Yeah , so I don't you know {vocalsound} how to interpret that , but , mmm {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Me either ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "t"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And {disfmarker} and did {disfmarker} an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They p stayed the same ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Roughly ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "they {disfmarker} maybe they are a little bit uh , lower ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "They are a little bit better . Yeah . But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Say , for the {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No , it doesn't ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it 's only the highly mismatched ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And it {disfmarker} Remind me again , the \" highly mismatched \" means that the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Clean training and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , sorry ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's clean training {disfmarker} Well , close microphone training and distant microphone , um , high speed , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Close mike training {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well {disfmarker} The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So {disfmarker} Well , maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Separating . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean , but without the neural network it 's {disfmarker} well , it 's better . It 's just when we add the neural networks ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "The feature are the same except that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , that 's right , that 's right . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well that {disfmarker} that says that , you know , the , um {disfmarker} the models in {disfmarker} in , uh , the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , yeah , actually {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} the TIMIT noises {pause} are sort of a range of noises and they 're not so much the stationary driving kind of noises , right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty different . Isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , there is a car noise . So there are f just four noises . Um , uh , \" Car \" , I think , \" Babble \" ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Babble . \""}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Subway \" , right ? and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "\" Street \" or \" Airport \" or something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "and {disfmarker} \" Street \" isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Or \" Train station \" ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Train station \" , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So {disfmarker} it 's mostly {disfmarker} Well , \" Car \" is stationary ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "\" Babble \" , it 's a stationary background plus some voices ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "some speech over it . And the other two are rather stationary also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I {disfmarker} I think that if you run it {disfmarker} Actually , you {disfmarker} maybe you remember this . When you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only , and didn't have this side path , um , uh , with the {disfmarker} the pure features as well , did it make things better to have the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Was it about the same ? Uh , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was {disfmarker} b a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Than {disfmarker} ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Than just the features , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , until you put the second path in with the pure features , the neural net wasn't helping at all ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , that 's interesting ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It was helping , uh , if the features are b were bad ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I mean . Just plain P L Ps or M F"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "C Cs . as soon as we added LDA on - line normalization , and {vocalsound} all these things , then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "They were doing similar enough things . Well , I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And {disfmarker} and the thing I {disfmarker} I have in mind is , uh , maybe you 'll see that the results are not just a little bit worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Maybe that they 're a lot worse . You know ? And , um {disfmarker} But if on the ha other hand , uh , it 's , say , somewhere in between what you 're seeing now and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , what you 'd have with just the pure features , then maybe there is some problem of a {disfmarker} of a , uh , combination of these things , or correlation between them somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment , then I think the issue is to focus on {disfmarker} on , uh , improving the {disfmarker} the net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So what 's the overall effe I mean , you haven't done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better , say , five percent better , for the first two conditions , and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it 's {disfmarker} but of course that one 's weighted lower ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Y yeah , oh . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I wonder what the net effect is ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it was one or two percent . That 's not that bad , but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat - Car . I have to {disfmarker} to check that . Well , I have {disfmarker} I will ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , it will {disfmarker} overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse , because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty - five {disfmarker} point two five eight ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} so the worst it could be , if the others were exactly the same , is four ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Is it like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} and , uh , in fact since the others are somewhat better {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so it 's four . Is i So either it 'll get cancelled out , or you 'll get , like , almost the same ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it was {disfmarker} it was slightly worse ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Slightly bad . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Um ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it should be pretty close to cancelled out ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , I 've been wondering about something ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "In the , um {disfmarker} a lot of the , um {disfmarker} the Hub - five systems , um , recently have been using LDA . and {disfmarker} and they , um {disfmarker} They run LDA on the features right before they train the models . So there 's the {disfmarker} the LDA is {disfmarker} is right there before the H M"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , you guys are using LDA but it seems like it 's pretty far back in the process ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about . The LDA that you {disfmarker} saying is , like , you take a block of features , like nine frames or something , {comment} and then do an LDA on it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty - four or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , you c you c you can ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And then feed it to HMM ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} you know , you 're just basically i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so this is like a two d two dimensional tile ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You 're shifting the feature space . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So this is a two dimensional tile . And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time , not in frequency {disfmarker} high cost frequency . So it 's like {disfmarker} more like a filtering in time , rather than doing a r"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah . OK . So what i what about , um {disfmarker} i u what i w I mean , I don't know if this is a good idea or not , but what if you put {disfmarker} ran the other kind of LDA , uh , on your features right before they go into the HMM ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . No , actually , I think {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "m"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well . What do we do with the ANN is {disfmarker} is something like that except that it 's not linear . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's like a nonlinear discriminant analysis ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Right , it 's the {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} Right . The {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah , so it 's sort of like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . It 's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I g"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , w but the other features that you have , um , th the non - tandem ones ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Yeah . Well , in the proposal , they were transformed u using PCA , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , it might be that LDA could be better ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "The a the argument i is kind of i in {disfmarker} and it 's not like we really know , but the argument anyway is that , um , uh , we always have the prob I mean , discriminative things are good . LDA , neural nets , they 're good ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , they 're good because you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between . And PCA doesn't do that . It {disfmarker} PAC - PCA {disfmarker} low - order PCA throws away pieces that are uh , maybe not {disfmarker} not gonna be helpful just because they 're small , basically ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But , uh , the problem is , training sets aren't perfect and testing sets are different . So you f you {disfmarker} you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff , be it LDA or neural nets , that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you 're really gonna be g getting is {disfmarker} is something else ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And so , uh , Stephane 's idea was , uh , let 's feed , uh , both this discriminatively trained thing and something that 's not . So you have a good set of features that everybody 's worked really hard to make ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and then , uh , you {disfmarker} you discriminately train it , but you also take the path that {disfmarker} that doesn't have that ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and putting those in together . And that {disfmarker} that seem So it 's kind of like a combination of the {disfmarker} uh , what , uh , Dan has been calling , you know , a feature {disfmarker} uh , you know , a feature combination versus posterior combination or something . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these {disfmarker} these other things . And that seemed , at least in the last one , as he was just saying , he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} when he only did discriminative stuff , i it actually was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} it didn't help at all in this particular case ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "There was enough of a difference , I guess , between the testing and training . But by having them both there {disfmarker} The fact is some of the time , the discriminative stuff is gonna help you ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And some of the time it 's going to hurt you ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and by combining two information sources if , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you wouldn't necessarily then want to do LDA on the non - tandem features because now you 're doing something to them that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That i i I think that 's counter to that idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now , again , it 's {disfmarker} we 're just trying these different things . We don't really know what 's gonna work best . But if that 's the hypothesis , at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . Yeah . Well {disfmarker} y"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Though , maybe not ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Exactly . I mean , we , uh {disfmarker} we were getting ready to do the tandem , uh , stuff for the Hub - five system , and , um , Andreas and I talked about it , and the idea w the thought was , \" Well , uh , yeah , that i you know {disfmarker} th the neural net should be better , but we should at least have uh , a number , you know , to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net , so that we can you know , show a clear path ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "You know , that you have it without it , then you have the LDA , then you have the neural net , and you can see , theoretically . So . I was just wondering {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , I think that 's a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Did {disfmarker} did you do that"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Um . No ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "or {disfmarker} tha that 's a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker} that 's what we 're gonna do next as soon as I finish this other thing . So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . No , well , that 's a good idea . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "We just want to show ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "i Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I mean , it {disfmarker} everybody believes it ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , no it 's a g"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but you know , we just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No , no , but it might not {disfmarker} not even be true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a great idea . I mean , one of the things that always disturbed me , uh , in the {disfmarker} the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that , um , a lot of people {disfmarker} Because neural nets were pretty easy to {disfmarker} to use {disfmarker} a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without , uh , looking at all into the linear , uh {disfmarker} uh , versions of them ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And , uh , people were doing recurrent nets but not looking at IIR filters , and {disfmarker} You know , I mean , uh , so I think , yeah , it 's definitely a good idea to try it ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , and everybody 's putting that on their {vocalsound} systems now , and so , I that 's what made me wonder about this ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , they 've been putting them in their systems off and on for ten years ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , what I mean is it 's {disfmarker} it 's like in the Hub - five evaluations , you know , and you read the system descriptions and everybody 's got , {vocalsound} you know , LDA on their features ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And now they all have that . I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "And so ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's the transformation they 're estimating on {disfmarker} Well , they are trained on the same data as the final HMM are ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah , so it 's different . Yeah , exactly . Cuz they don't have these , you know , mismatches that {disfmarker} that you guys have ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's why I was wondering if maybe it 's not even a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I don't know . I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about it ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "but {disfmarker} Um ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , part of why {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think part of why you were getting into the KLT {disfmarker} Y you were describing to me at one point that you wanted to see if , uh , you know , getting good orthogonal features was {disfmarker} and combining the {disfmarker} the different temporal ranges {disfmarker} was the key thing that was happening or whether it was this discriminant thing , right ? So you were just trying {disfmarker} I think you r I mean , this is {disfmarker} it doesn't have the LDA aspect but th as far as the orthogonalizing transformation , you were trying that at one point , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think you were ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Does something . It doesn't work as well . Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , yeah , I 've been exploring a parallel VAD without neural network with , like , less latency using SNR and energy , um , after the cleaning up . So what I 'd been trying was , um , uh {disfmarker} After the b after the noise compensation , n I was trying t to f find a f feature based on the ratio of the energies , that is , cl after clean and before clean . So that if {disfmarker} if they are , like , pretty c close to one , which means it 's speech . And if it is n if it is close to zero , which is {disfmarker} So it 's like a scale @ @ probability value . So I was trying , uh , with full band and multiple bands , m ps uh {disfmarker} separating them to different frequency bands and deriving separate decisions on each bands , and trying to combine them . Uh , the advantage being like it doesn't have the latency of the neural net if it {disfmarker} if it can"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "g And {pause} it gave me like , uh , one point {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} more than one percent relative improvement . So , from fifty - three point six it went to fifty f four point eight . So it 's , like , only slightly more than a percent improvement ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "just like {disfmarker} Which means that it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing a slightly better job than the previous VAD ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "uh , at a l lower delay ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , so , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} i d I 'm sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so {disfmarker} u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "does it still have the median {pause} filter stuff ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It still has the median filter ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So it still has most of the delay ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "it just doesn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so d with the delay , that 's gone is the input , which is the sixty millisecond . The forty plus {pause} twenty ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , w i"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "At the input of the neural net you have this , uh , f nine frames of context plus the delta ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , plus the delta ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that delay , plus the LDA ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , so the delay is only the forty millisecond of the noise cleaning , plus the hundred millisecond smoothing at the output ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um . So . Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} di the biggest {disfmarker} The problem f for me was to find a consistent threshold that works {pause} well across the different databases , because I t I try to make it work on tr SpeechDat - Car"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "and it fails on TI - digits , or if I try to make it work on that it 's just the Italian or something , it doesn't work on the Finnish ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , um . So there are {disfmarker} there was , like , some problem in balancing the deletions and insertions when I try different thresholds ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} I 'm still trying to make it better by using some other features from the {disfmarker} after the p clean up {disfmarker} maybe , some , uh , correlation {disfmarker} auto - correlation or some s additional features of {disfmarker} to mainly the improvement of the VAD . I 've been trying ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Now this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this , uh , \" before and after clean \" , it sounds like you think that 's a good feature . That {disfmarker} that , it {disfmarker} you th think that the , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} i it appears to be a good feature , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "What about using it in the neural net ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , eventually we could {disfmarker} could just"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so that 's the {disfmarker} Yeah . So we 've been thinking about putting it into the neural net also ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Because they did {disfmarker} that itself {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Then you don't have to worry about the thresholds and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "There 's a threshold and {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that 's , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So if we {disfmarker} if we can live with the latency or cut the latencies elsewhere , then {disfmarker} then that would be a , uh , good thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um , anybody {disfmarker} has anybody {disfmarker} you guys or {disfmarker} or Naren , uh , somebody , tried the , uh , um , second th second stream thing ? Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Oh , I just {disfmarker} I just h put the second stream in place and , uh ran one experiment , but just like {disfmarker} just to know that everything is fine ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So it was like , uh , forty - five cepstrum plus twenty - three mel {disfmarker} log mel ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "And {disfmarker} and , just , like , it gave me the baseline performance of the Aurora , which is like zero improvement ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So I just tried it on Italian just to know that everything is {disfmarker} But I {disfmarker} I didn't export anything out of it because it was , like , a weird feature set ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , what I think , you know , would be more what you 'd want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , uh , put it into another neural net . Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then {disfmarker} But , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not quite there yet . So we have to {vocalsound} figure out the neural nets , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "The uh , other thing I was wondering was , um , if the neural net , um , has any {disfmarker} because of the different noise con unseen noise conditions for the neural net , where , like , you train it on those four noise conditions , while you are feeding it with , like , a additional {disfmarker} some four plus some {disfmarker} f few more conditions which it hasn't seen , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "from the {disfmarker} f f while testing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um {disfmarker} instead of just h having c uh , those cleaned up t cepstrum , sh should we feed some additional information , like {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} We have the VAD flag . I mean , should we f feed the VAD flag , also , at the input so that it {disfmarker} it has some additional discriminating information at the input ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Hmm - hmm ! Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Wh - uh , the {disfmarker} the VAD what ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "We have the VAD information also available at the back - end ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So if it is something the neural net is not able to discriminate the classes {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "I mean {disfmarker} Because most of it is sil I mean , we have dropped some silence f We have dropped so silence frames ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "No , we haven't dropped silence frames still ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , still not . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Th"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the b b biggest classification would be the speech and silence . So , by having an additional , uh , feature which says \" this is speech and this is nonspeech \" , I mean , it certainly helps in some unseen noise conditions for the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} Do y do you have that feature available for the test data ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Well , I mean , we have {disfmarker} we are transferring the VAD to the back - end {disfmarker} feature to the back - end . Because we are dropping it at the back - end after everything {disfmarker} all the features are computed ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "I see ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "so the neural {disfmarker} so that is coming from a separate neural net or some VAD ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK . OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Which is {disfmarker} which is certainly giving a"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So you 're saying , feed that , also , into {pause} the neural net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "to {disfmarker} Yeah . So it it 's an {disfmarker} additional discriminating information ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "You could feed it into the neural net . The other thing {comment} you could do is just , um , p modify the , uh , output probabilities of the {disfmarker} of the , uh , uh , um , neural net , tandem neural net , {comment} based on the fact that you have a silence probability ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So you have an independent estimator of what the silence probability is , and you could multiply the two things , and renormalize ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I mean , you 'd have to do the nonlinearity part and deal with that . Uh , I mean , go backwards from what the nonlinearity would , you know {disfmarker} would be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Through {disfmarker} t to the soft max ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} maybe , yeah , when {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But in principle wouldn't it be better to feed it in ? And let the net do that ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , u Not sure ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I mean , let 's put it this way . I mean , y you {disfmarker} you have this complicated system with thousands and thousand parameters"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and you can tell it , uh , \" Learn this thing . \" Or you can say , \" It 's silence ! Go away ! \" I mean , I mean , i Doesn't {disfmarker} ? I think {disfmarker} I think the second one sounds a lot more direct ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What {disfmarker} what if you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right . So , what if you then , uh {disfmarker} since you know this , what if you only use the neural net on the speech portions ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "That 's what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Well , I guess that 's the same . Uh , that 's similar ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , I mean , y you 'd have to actually run it continuously ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean {disfmarker} I mean , train the net only on {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {disfmarker} Well , no , you want to train on {disfmarker} on the nonspeech also , because that 's part of what you 're learning in it , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to generate , that it 's {disfmarker} it has to distinguish between ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But I mean , if you 're gonna {disfmarker} if you 're going to multiply the output of the net by this other decision , uh , would {disfmarker} then you don't care about whether the net makes that distinction , right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , yeah . But this other thing isn't perfect ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So that you bring in some information from the net itself ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right , OK . That 's a good point ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only thing that {disfmarker} that bothers me about all this is that I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the fact {disfmarker} i i It 's sort of bothersome that you 're getting more deletions ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} So I might maybe look at , is it due to the fact that um , the probability of the silence at the output of the network , is , uh ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Is too high ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "too {disfmarker} too high or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So maybe {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "If it 's the case , then multiplying it again by {disfmarker} i by something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "It may not be {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} it may be too {disfmarker} it 's too high in a sense , like , everything is more like a , um , flat probability ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Oh - eee - hhh ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "So , like , it 's not really doing any distinction between speech and nonspeech {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "or , I mean , different {disfmarker} among classes ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Be interesting to look at the {disfmarker} Yeah , for the {disfmarker} I wonder if you could do this . But if you look at the , um , highly mism high mismat the output of the net on the high mismatch case and just look at , you know , the distribution versus the {disfmarker} the other ones , do you {disfmarker} do you see more peaks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , like the entropy of the {disfmarker} the output ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , for instance ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "But I {disfmarker} bu"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It {disfmarker} it seems that the VAD network doesn't {disfmarker} Well , it doesn't drop , uh , too many frames because the dele the number of deletion is reasonable . But it 's just when we add the tandem , the final MLP , and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Now the only problem is you don't want to ta I guess wait for the output of the VAD before you can put something into the other system ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "u"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "cuz that 'll shoot up the latency a lot , right ? Am I missing something here ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . So that 's maybe a problem with what I was just saying . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} I I guess {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But if you were gonna put it in as a feature it means you already have it by the time you get to the tandem net , right ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Um , well . We {disfmarker} w we don't have it , actually ,"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it has a high rate energy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "the VAD has a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's kind of done in {disfmarker} I mean , some of the things are , not in parallel , but certainly , it would be in parallel with the {disfmarker} with a tandem net ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "In time . So maybe , if that doesn't work , um {disfmarker} But it would be interesting to see if that was the problem , anyway . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then I guess another alternative would be to take the feature that you 're feeding into the VAD , and feeding it into the other one as well ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "And then maybe it would just learn {disfmarker} learn it better ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's an interesting thing to try to see , if what 's going on is that in the highly mismatched condition , it 's , um , causing deletions by having this silence probability up {disfmarker} up too high ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "at some point where the VAD is saying it 's actually speech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Which is probably true ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So , m"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Well , the V A if the VAD said {disfmarker} since the VAD is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is right a lot , uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Anyway . Might be ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , we just started working with it . But these are {disfmarker} these are some good ideas I think ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , and the other thing {disfmarker} Well , there are other issues maybe for the tandem , like , uh , well , do we want to , w uh n Do we want to work on the targets ? Or , like , instead of using phonemes , using more context dependent units ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "For the tandem net you mean ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , I 'm {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I 'm thinking , also , a w about Dan 's work where he {disfmarker} he trained {vocalsound} a network , not on phoneme targets but on the HMM state targets . And {disfmarker} it was giving s slightly better results ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Problem is , if you are going to run this on different m test sets , including large vocabulary ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mmm . I was just thinking maybe about , like , generalized diphones , and {disfmarker} come up with a {disfmarker} a reasonable , not too large , set of context dependent units , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . And then anyway we would have to reduce this with the KLT ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "So . But {disfmarker} I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe . But I d I d it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i it 's all worth looking at ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but it sounds to me like , uh , looking at the relationship between this and the {disfmarker} speech noise stuff is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is probably a key thing ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "That and the correlation between stuff ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So if , uh {disfmarker} if the , uh , high mismatch case had been more like the , uh , the other two cases {comment} in terms of giving you just a better performance , {comment} how would this number have changed ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm . Oh , it would be {disfmarker} Yeah . Around five percent better , I guess . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} i"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "y Like sixty ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Well , we don't know what 's it 's gonna be the TI - digits yet . He hasn't got the results back yet ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah . If you extrapolate the SpeechDat - Car well - matched and medium - mismatch , it 's around , yeah , maybe five ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh . Yeah . So this would be sixty - two ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Sixty - two ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Sixty - two , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Somewhere around sixty , must be . Right ? Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Well , it 's around five percent , because it 's {disfmarker} s Right ? If everything is five percent ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "All the other ones were five percent ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I d I d I just have the SpeechDat - Car right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "It 's running {disfmarker} it shou we should have the results today during the afternoon ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "but {disfmarker} Well ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} So I won't be here for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When {disfmarker} When do you leave ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I 'm leaving next Wednesday . May or may not be in in the morning . I leave in the afternoon . Um ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "But you 're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "so I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "are you {disfmarker} you 're not gonna be around this afternoon ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Oh , well . I 'm talking about next week . I 'm leaving {disfmarker} leaving next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Uh - huh ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "This afternoon {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Oh , right , for the Meeting meeting ? Yeah , that 's just cuz of something on campus ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Ah , OK , OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . But , um , yeah , so next week I won't , and the week after I won't , cuz I 'll be in Finland . And the week after that I won't . By that time you 'll be {disfmarker} {comment} Uh , you 'll both be gone {pause} from here . So there 'll be no {disfmarker} definitely no meeting on {disfmarker} on September sixth . Uh ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "What 's September sixth ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "and {disfmarker} Uh , that 's during Eurospeech ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , oh , right . OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So , uh , Sunil will be in Oregon . Uh , Stephane and I will be in Denmark . Uh {disfmarker} Right ? So it 'll be a few weeks , really , before we have a meeting of the same cast of characters . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} I guess , just {disfmarker} I mean , you guys should probably meet . And maybe Barry {disfmarker} Barry will be around . And {disfmarker} and then uh , uh , we 'll start up again with Dave and {disfmarker} Dave and Barry and Stephane and us on the , uh , twentieth . No . Thirteenth ? About a month ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So , uh , you 're gonna be gone for the next three weeks or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "I 'm gone for two and a half weeks starting {disfmarker} starting next Wed - late next Wednesday ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "So that 's {disfmarker} you won't be at the next three of these meetings . Is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Uh , I won't {disfmarker} it 's probably four because of {disfmarker} is it three ? Let 's see , twenty - third , thirtieth , sixth . That 's right , next three . And the {disfmarker} the third one won't {disfmarker} probably won't be a meeting , cuz {disfmarker} cuz , uh , Su - Sunil , Stephane , and I will all not be here ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Oh , right . Right ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} So it 's just , uh , the next two where there will be {disfmarker} there , you know , may as well be meetings ,"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "but I just won't be at them . And then starting up on the thirteenth , {nonvocalsound} uh , we 'll have meetings again but we 'll have to do without Sunil here somehow ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When do you go back ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Thirty - first , August ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So . Cool ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "When is the evaluation ? November , or something ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yeah , it was supposed to be November fifteenth . Has anybody heard anything different ?"}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "I don't know . The meeting in {disfmarker} is the five and six of December . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "p s It 's like {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tentatively all full . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Mm - hmm ."}, {"speaker": "PhD D", "content": "Uh , that 's a proposed date , I guess ."}, {"speaker": "PhD C", "content": "Yeah , um {disfmarker} so the evaluation should be on a week before or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Yep . But , no , this is good progress . So . Uh {disfmarker} OK ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "Should we do digits ?"}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "Guess we 're done . Digits ? Yep ."}, {"speaker": "PhD A", "content": "OK ."}, {"speaker": "Professor B", "content": "It 's a wrap ."}], "query": "What did PhD C say about the breakdown of the latency?", "answer": "PhD C explained that the silence probabilities had a 100ms delay, the delta at the input had a 40ms delay, and a 10ms delay was created by LDA filters."}, {"id": 254, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This meeting was mainly about conceptual design. Industrial Designer, Marketing and User Interface gave presentations mainly on component design, current trend and interface design respectively, based on their research on the website incorporating the ideas from last meeting. A lot of discussions was centred around the fruit and vegetable theme, which was the current marketing trend. In the meanwhile, they had some discussions on physical attributes and the use of energy. They agreed that the screen was not necessary, and TV could be used as the screen instead. In addition, Kryptonite became their preferred energy."}, {"id": 255, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "What did the group discuss about the current trend and potential materials?", "answer": "Marketing proposed that the fancy look and feel were more important than the functionality of the product. The fruit and vegetable theme was the current trend, and marketing himself preferred fruits to vegetables. Therefore, how spongy the material could be should be taken into consideration when choosing the materials. The potential materials to accomplish the fruit and vegetable theme could be a sort of rubber, which was used in the stress balls. The alternative option was to use a cover for it, and choose a colour that fits one's sitting room."}, {"id": 256, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "What did the Industrial Designer say about component design?", "answer": "Industrial Designer thought some parts needed custom design, and other parts should just use standard. For example, the case needed custom design to protect the remote and the locator, and the circuit board needed custom design as well, while the buttons and the wheels, radio sender and receiver were all standard parts. In addition, beeper or other noise things were needed as well for locating the remote. Rubber, plastic, wood and titanium were options of materials, but better not titanium. Regular chips were required if the iPod-style wheel button was used."}, {"id": 257, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "What did people decide on screen usage when discussing the necessity of screen?", "answer": "User Interface assumed they were going to have a screen at first, since User Interface thought a screen was necessary for people to visualize things such as a specific song when looking for one. However, since adding a screen cost more money, and TV could be used as the screen, they finally decided that screen was not necessary."}, {"id": 258, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about potential options of energy.", "answer": "Battery, solar power, dynamo, Kryptonite were potential options of the energy. They ended up with a preference on Kryptonite. Even though they could not find an exact price for it, it would not be more expensive than a chip."}, {"id": 259, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "What did the Industrial Designer think of the potential options of energy?", "answer": "Industrial Designer preferred battery. Industrial Designer was not very familiar with dynamo. Wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power were all possible, but solar power would not be available with the rubber case."}, {"id": 260, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hi everyone , hope you had a nice lunch . Um {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Alright we're moving on to conceptual design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} 'Scuse me . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Bless you ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , I'll just review what we did in our last meeting . Um , {vocalsound} under marketing we targeted our audience , and {disfmarker} Um , yeah . That was {vocalsound} generally {vocalsound} {disfmarker} how helpful that was ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , then we considered some design options with how it should look , um , we discussed an iPod-like button system which , uh , we haven't concluded but we're {disfmarker} Right , um {disfmarker} So , if you all have presentations to do , we can see what {disfmarker} where you've come from our last time . Does everyone have presentations ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Would anybody like to go first ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Sure ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I've been looking at the components design . Um . Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting . Um , so we need some custom design parts , and other parts we'll just use standard . Um , I assume we'll be custom designing our case , probably a hard plastic or some other material case , to protect the remote and the locator . And we'll need to custom desi design a circuit board , because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time . But once we come up with a design we'll send it to the circuit people and they'll just print it out . Um , standard parts include the buttons and the wheels , um the iPod-style wheel . The infrared L_E_D_ is actually gonna be included in the circuit board that comes with it . Um , we need a radio sender and receiver , those are standard . And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote . So we have some material options . Um , we can use rubber , plastic , wood or titanium . Um , I'd recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it's really heavy . Um , and the rubber case requires rubber buttons , so if we definitely want plastic buttons , we shouldn't have a rubber case ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And why not wood ? {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "hmm ? {vocalsound} Uh , well we can use wood . {vocalsound} I don't know why we'd want to . Um and also we should note that if we want an iPod-style wheel button , it's gonna require a m qu slightly more expensive chip . We can't use the minimal chip , we need the next higher grade , which is called regular . I don't think it's much more expensive , but it is more expensive . So that's what I've got on design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'S good ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , can I do next ? 'Cause I have to say something about the material"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is quite shocking ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Ha . Mm . Right , um , I have been searching the current trends , um , both on the web and via fashion-watchers , and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion uh , fancy look and feel . Um . Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that . And th last thing is the easy to use um factor . Um , fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing , but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use . Um , our fashion-watchers in Milan and Paris have decided , well noticed , that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the {vocalsound} is the current trend"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and and therefore um we need to go for that if we want , you know , wh whatever our motto is . Um . For fashion , we go for fashion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The fashion in electronics . So we want to put the fashion electronics , we need to go fruit and vegetables . And also go for a spongy feel , so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer . As to the material should be limited to {disfmarker} I don't know how spongy it can be , should discuss this together , I don't know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that's the way to go . Um . I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but that's just a personal opinion ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed , so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff , or should the actual remote look like a fruit ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um , and finally again with the spongy . It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find {disfmarker} come up with a solution that's better than mine . Um , yeah , to summarise these are the points that need to be um , touched in order to get a good decision , and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you for your attention ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it's the next {disfmarker} it's the blue one , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , uh , there we go . {vocalsound} Uh . Okay . Um . Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} I actually wasn't aware of the {vocalsound} new trends in electronics"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Neither was I . Well it's a trend in fashion , in clothing and um {vocalsound} fabrics . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah but you're not gonna wear your remote control . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So so okay , let me get this right . Okay , uh {disfmarker} Okay , alright anyway . Um {vocalsound} here we go . Conceptual User Interface . Trying {disfmarker} we're gonna try to talk about , um {vocalsound} what kind of uh {disfmarker} how people are actually going to be using this iPod-ish remote control , based on fruit vegetable design ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And , um , basically , so , this is a touched ba a touch-based graphical interface system . {vocalsound} Uh , so people are going to be looking at this little screen . Um , kind of {disfmarker} I mean I assume , are we still on the screen idea ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh we s hadn't discussed it last time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause if we're gonna have to ha if we have this {disfmarker} it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the um {vocalsound} the wheel"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You need a screen for it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it seems like you would need a screen ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You need a screen with music because you're looking for a specific song , like you know that band or whatever . With T_V_ channels it's , you know , one two three . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But like if you think about it {disfmarker} yeah but if {disfmarker} so is it just {disfmarker} okay . So , b you you're gonna have to switch to like D_V_D_ and like other things like that , aren't you ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're , um , we're actually not having D_V_D_ ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Are we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "that was one of th I I was {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I I meant to update you on that . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Alright . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But the screen can come up on the telly , the {disfmarker} she said ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That correct ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So anyway if {disfmarker} well we just {disfmarker} we need to {disfmarker} Okay so if we're not gonna have a screen {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} okay . So basically it's just gonna be a wheel then ? And you're just gonna {disfmarker} I mean I think you're gonna have to have some kind of a {disfmarker} right ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Graphical interface ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah like you're g"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh on the {disfmarker} you can have it on the telly though ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah like you're gonna have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can {disfmarker} okay we're not choosing that , I guess . But like choose channel control , like if you wa Because people aren't gonna be able to have like , um , you know , channels one two three four five six seven eight nine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} people seems to be {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You've {disfmarker} Yeah , I know what you're saying , you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You know . But you're gonna have to scroll to get channels . So um {vocalsound} I guess that's wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because {disfmarker} So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if {disfmarker} or or {disfmarker} then again if you just {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the T_V_ like what channel you're on ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But but imagine someone with s"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "My flatmates actually had one with a wheel , and it it did show up on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I oh yeah ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels . Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause you'll have to like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They have to r wheel really fast ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but you can quickly s you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "at least on theirs ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah if you do , it w so it would have to be {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean so you basically just kinda need to figure out like what kind of , you know , range we need to have on the wheel , and um {disfmarker} So you're either {disfmarker} you're {disfmarker} you know , th you're either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that , you know , you can like tap for , um , different"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "uh , whatchamacallits , different um , you know , functions like volume or , like you can tap just to get to different channels . Like if you just wanted to go to like {disfmarker} from five to six you could tap or someth"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And then there's also the concern about you know um {vocalsound} how do you get to the menu if you wanna change the brightness of your television , or if you want to um {vocalsound} you know switch around , I don't know , like , these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean with that many options , you'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I'd think that the screen would be better ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because you could have that menu option , sort of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I would think so too , like {disfmarker} So I mean {disfmarker} and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it , you know , because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but then again it would {disfmarker} it does make kind of {disfmarker} if the screen's sort of just like an option that , like , is just there and you're not really using it , that's kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It's more expensive according to the design people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "m yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , that's the only thing though ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You have to get a {disfmarker} an advanced chip if you wanna have a screen in , which is more expensive than the regular chip , which is more expensive than the minimal ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you're doing , um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} You can get to {disfmarker} you know , you can {disfmarker} Like maybe it'll be that central button that , like , then you hit that and then you can {disfmarker} it brings up like the menu on the T_V_"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you can just scroll around , like , to do the timer , to do the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So the T_V_ is the screen , that {disfmarker} yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it would have all these different options of changing"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But the remote itself isn't really cluttered up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Look it even has settings ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "On the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} you can just take theirs and just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , well we don't want the screen I guess ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but um {disfmarker} 'cause that just {disfmarker} it does seem like , it {disfmarker} that would be , like , incredibly expensive , but {disfmarker} I dunno , and then {disfmarker} so , it just im really all you need is , like , this little wheel then , and you can control everything ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , right . What if {disfmarker} I mean , if you're thinking of the design of it now , like the a you know , physical attributes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um , and you just have this , it's like just a long silver thing ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or whatever we're thinking . I mean are you you gonna have any buttons on that besides power and this thing ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It doesn't seem that you would need anything besides pow I mean and the power button could even be like hold down the menu button for like longer than one second and it turns on the T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . So can we imagine that this would be smaller than the remote controls that you showed us before . I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah definitely ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I think we're looking at something that could be , like like even maybe like a cir I'm f I'm seeing almost like a circular sort of like handheld like thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean it it needs to be easy to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah but should be comfortable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "somehow it needs to be easy to like manipulate and use your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean how do how do {disfmarker} I'm not really {disfmarker} Like when I use an iPod , I end up just kind of using my index finger to like control it . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I've seen some people just going like that with their thumb , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Or your thumb or something . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah I use it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W when we had the wheely remote control , we {disfmarker} it was on the top I think , if you held it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But , were there buttons on there as well ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah well it had the wheely thing and then it had those eighteen different buttons that I don't know what they do ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So we just used the top part ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker} but I mean I think it could be pretty small ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , I d I mean , you you want it to be large enough that you can {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What if , um , you had like a b a cover that went over buttons that you don't use very much ? Like you {disfmarker} so you could slide it up if you needed to like change the contrast or something like that ? So the options are there but they're not in interfering with the design and the practicality of it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But can't you just get {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do {disfmarker} do you know what I'm talking about though ? Like , uh , yeah just something {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah like maybe something on the side where you slip a panel down and it's got a whole bunch of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "K"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well you can have it on the settings ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , that you can flip over , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "no ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , But , I mean , do you need that ? If if you can get to , you know {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} so long as you're able to bring up the menu on the T_V_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I mean I guess that's the thing"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "is is {disfmarker} if w I {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That keeps it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "if we can do this , that'd probably be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "really {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh you wouldn't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I just don't think you would even need it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I guess we have to look into the , um , like , the programming , how this {disfmarker} how they actually programme these things , and if that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh how they make the menu show up on the T_V_ ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I mean it {disfmarker} would y would {disfmarker} that would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I mean you can do it ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They already do it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I believe it's ins it's gotta be inside the T_V_ , not inside the remote ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it doesn't seem that hard . I mean I've never bought a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm not sure ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It sounds like this remote's going to be purchased separately from the television ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well they usually are ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is a little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "My {disfmarker} I've never bought just a remote , like , so I don't I don't really know ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Huh ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess that's right . It always comes with the T_V_ . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , um {disfmarker} but I mean it's {disfmarker} I've never had a hard time with like my remotes , like bringing up the menu screen if you need to like change the date or whatever , you know . And I don't think that should uh that should be too hard ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , it {disfmarker} most of the ones we've had have had the menu button , 'cause it's not like you need to have a button access to like change the contrast or something . 'Cause it just doesn't come up every day or something ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Well so {disfmarker} So , do we need {disfmarker} I dunno . Well I guess we have to you know think about {disfmarker} But I mean you just basically need the output signal you know to be able to bring it up ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's what it does anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But also if you have it on the screen you can actually write everything out , because the problem with buttons is you {disfmarker} like , they have these sort of abbreviations and codes that you're supposed to understand ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "you don't know they mean , yeah , it's like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I never get it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Never ever ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "oh , you mean if we have this screen like the iPod screen ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well on the telly ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or on the T_V_ too ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "On the telly , okay , yeah . So yeah I think , I mean , I think I think the touch-based graphical interface is a really uh cool idea"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because you know it is so obnoxious to like have to push those {disfmarker} like okay now I hit this {disfmarker} you know , you have your little guide out and you're like , hit this button twice , like to activate the date ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm . And it is technologically innovative in a way ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so that fits with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I guess . And it is trendy , the iPods are {vocalsound} really hot right now , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "B Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Did you did you get that pc picture on {disfmarker} did they provide you with that picture on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um , yeah , by web research , yeah , so {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's quite interesting . What are we going to do about this vegetable thing that I'm dreading ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh god . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh , I was gonna say ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You said uh people want spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Um , one of your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "one of the material options is a sort of rubber that's {gap} in like those stress ball things . So , that would be spongy ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh , okay , that would be cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Ah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Just nice feel , but I hate spongy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , c that's e that would be kind of {disfmarker} oh , you know , usually like the touch pad things are kind of a hard plastic typ mouse type , you know , thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . I mean definitely the area round it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But what if we ha what if we had like a spongy sort of like stress balley kinda {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you're like {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think it could work ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or what if we integrated the {vocalsound} the uh the f what if the whole thing about the fruit and vegetables"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we somehow made it tactilely fash you know , we c tapped into that , so like it feels like"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Don't think I'd want it to feel like a banana ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a vegetable . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well it could be like mobiles that just {disfmarker} you just put a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "An orange . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a small thing , you c instead of creating an object for it that looks like a banana ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which frankly I'm not particularly fond of ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "um you could just have covers and then your mobile f it's like a mobile phone thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You know you had {disfmarker} there was a time when they had all these different covers for mobiles ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could do like the computers where they have like the grapefruit , apple machine and they have like the blueberry , like all the colours are named after fruits ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . You could name it after fruits and vegetables , or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And it could {disfmarker} the colour can fit your sitting room ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so if you have red sitting room you can have strawberry , and then if you have a green one you can have {disfmarker} well I don't know . Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So what if {disfmarker} what"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} this is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah , colours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm just forming this idea in my head of how this thing is looking . If you have like that stress ball material kind of as what you're actually holding in your hand , so like what you're feeling is comfortable , and then there's more of a hard plastic thing where that thing is ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And on that hard plastic thing you can change either the colour or the fruit or vegetable that's on there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is that kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I {disfmarker} 'cause I I'm thinking of silver because those are our company colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Unfortunately they don't have silver fruits and vegetables ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I do I dunno . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean how are you how are you all envisioning by what we've just {disfmarker} the feedback we've just got about the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Maybe a ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A ball ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Know , a squashy ball ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} A relaxing squashy ball . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That you can p"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That's in the shape of a fruit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "well I {disfmarker} see you're thinking , it's weird , you're thinking the opposite of me 'cause you're thinking you change the the hard bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and I'm thinking how do you change the hard {disfmarker} would you put a um sticker sort of ? Because I was thinking if you have a cover for the squashy bit , like a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is just {disfmarker} Okay . Say that's the s say that's the squashy bit . Squashy ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , okay , yeah . Yeah I was thinking of getting a cover for {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That {disfmarker} see I was thinking this s"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is cheaper ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sorry {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well I don't know if it's cheaper actually ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking this bit here would be the cover and like that's your actual thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And like this {disfmarker} you could have like you could have like cherries and {vocalsound} things around there ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh I like that shape ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um but {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I was thinking sort of a single ball shape ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I was thinking if it was like this {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you're holding a squishy ball"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'cause the way you were describing the the iPod and the thi the roll thingy {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and then it has a {disfmarker} Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's like it has to be s"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's almost like your thumb is farther up ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so if if you could squish it lower then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I guess so ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . So it wouldn't be very big in either {disfmarker} like how big ? This big , and then you just do that , I suppose ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , I know what you meant , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "What if , yeah , what if the squishy , oh so so you're saying the squishy part's like detachable , and you can {disfmarker} so so maybe one you know {disfmarker} you can have like the broccoli squishy thing , and then you could have like the banana squishy thing {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and you could get {disfmarker} you could have your choice , you know ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well just a li I can't des like condom thingy , like a a cover ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But {disfmarker} well the question is , which one's easiest to change and we can just contact our relevant department for that ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and just see what the cost is for covering that or covering that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and for now we can do two prototypes maybe and then hi try and ask users what the best is ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um . That's nicer . I think it's nicer to have a drawing 'cause it's neater ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hmm . Well that's not very neat , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . I mean I think uh {disfmarker} and I think the handhe I think the handheld part is definitely {disfmarker} So you could make that into the fruit and vegetable part ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's a bit like those juggling balls , you can change shape according to your {disfmarker} to the way you hold it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could squish it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If it's got sand in it maybe , or something , you {disfmarker} it it just moulds to your hand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . So where are the fruit and vegetables now ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I guess they would be either in the colour of that plastic face on the front , or in the colour of the squishy thing underneath ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fruits and veg ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "We we don't know . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And the rest is the company {disfmarker} the company colour's silver ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It was , yeah , silver and yellow . It l it looks like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We could promote the banana one ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Like {disfmarker} mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean that's another question , where are we gonna {disfmarker} we we should have the logo somewhere on it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Should also fit the batteries , which we haven't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think the batteries would have to go right under the plastic case ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , th and that would {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Especially if you're switching out the squishy part . Then you need to have the other part just be sort of a single unit that you can snap off ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I think , um it'd be interesting to have the b the squishy bit . The part that you , yeah , can change into the different , you know , trendy vegetables and fruits ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But uh it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well I dunno . You'd spend so much time like squishing it to your own personal hand . Then you'd get a new one and you'd have to do it all over again ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No but it does it automatically ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Does it automatically ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't know what the rest of my notes mean because they were made for me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} But if someone {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "components concept . Question mark . Energy . Question mark ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That was me ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Was that you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Oh right right . Yeah . Um , so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we're gonna use batteries right ? And {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh we actually had an option of batteries , solar power , and um a dynamo ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which is something I don't know what it is . Something to do with torches ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , a dynamo is {disfmarker} ah , {vocalsound} it's a bicycle . It's a bicycle mechanism . It's the en it's like if if something moves , when it moves , it stores energy ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh okay . Yeah , the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you'd basically have to wind it yourself ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So I sort of picked battery ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's quite sweet ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We could have talked about doing a wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power . Um but I think solar power's not available with the rubber case anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think batteries sound good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It {vocalsound} it seems a little weird for a living room anyways ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does everyone else think ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} The dynamo would be interesting {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No . But dynamo {disfmarker} the the fact with dynamo is , the moment you move it , it c it {vocalsound} creates energy on its own ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What about Kryptonite ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Which is quite cool . So if you throw it , it's gonna store loads of energy , and you don't need to buy a battery 'cause they're quite f I find them annoying . But we need to find cost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Don't know the cost ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Didn't have enough data to actually {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does anyone have costs on the on the web ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "All it said was it gave sort of relative , some chips are more expensive than others , sort of things . It didn't give me any actual cost ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Right ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk . So I don't think it's that much of a problem . Like the chip is probably the most expensive part ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What does chip on print mean ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , for things like remote controls , um , they stamp out a chip ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "calculators too I think . Um , so you can mass produce 'em pretty cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's not like a computer , you can't like reprogramme your remo remote controls , it's like stamped onto the chip ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right . So , chip on print is just {disfmarker} means like that they're mass-produced ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . And case ? Uh I guess that's what we've been talking about ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Case is what we were discussing yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . Casing . Yeah . {gap} thinking of like syntactic case and thi"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} let's see . Is there anything else we need to"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "talk about ? Oh when we move on , you two are going to be playing with play-dough ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , and working on the look and feel of the design and user interface design . And you're gonna be doing protu product evaluation . So you'll get mm m more instructions from your personal coach ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh , thank you . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Cool ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you soon . Does it matter that I end early ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I {disfmarker} it's strange because {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How how early is it ? I didn't get a pop-up thing that said {disfmarker}"}], "query": "What was the cost of the Kryptonite when discussing potential options of energy?", "answer": "The website did not give an actual cost, but most of the stuff was cheap. The chip would be the most expensive part anyway, so the group should not worry about the cost of the Kryptonite too much."}, {"id": 261, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "After a brief summary of the last meeting, the team discussed the conceptual design for new remote control, which covered the properties, materials, user interface and trend watching. Marketing shared feedback about the design of the device. Industrial Designer gave a presentation on the design and availability of actual components, whereas User Interface led the discussion about customer needs and feasibility on design and competitors' study. A final decision was reached regarding the design of the remote control such as using kinetic charging and a rubber cover."}, {"id": 262, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What were the final decisions made by the team?", "answer": "Kinetic charging will be adopted with LCD display on the top side of the flip top and rubberized buttons, such as volume control and channel control on the bottom. Two separate circuit boards will be joined by wires for standard and complex buttons respectively. Fruit and vegetable colours, such as chilli red or tomato red will be used for the rubber cover and the case will be plastic. The company logo will be incorporated into the design. The team hoped to incorporate voice recognition but financial feasibility will have to be checked and whistles or beepers could be used if not feasible."}, {"id": 263, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What did the team decide on in the last meeting?", "answer": "Teletext will not be used and there will not be a control for everything. The buttons should be easy to find. The image of the company is to be incorporated in the design and a flip design is decided. Voice recognition is left out. The shape of the remote will be different than normal, like a shell or something along those lines. An alarm will be added in case the remote is lost. The target market will be young business people."}, {"id": 264, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about the feedback on the design of the remote control device.", "answer": "Market research was done with a hundred subjects and Marketing concluded the most important aspect required in the device is a fancy look and feel. The second and third important aspects are technologically innovative and being easy to use. Fruits and vegetables can be taken into consideration when thinking about design themes as they were the themes of fashion fairs in Paris and Milan. There is also a trend towards a spongy feel to materials."}, {"id": 265, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What are the actual components found in most remote controls that will be included in this remote design?", "answer": "Industrial Designer explained that TA11835 is a chip used in pretty much every remote control to send out standard signals based on the input. On the other hand, most current remotes use a silicone printed circuit board (PCB board) which connects the circuits so that the messages would be sent to the chip. The size should be decided as the board can be custom made."}, {"id": 266, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What are the benefits and drawbacks for each battery option mentioned and what did Industrial Manager suggest to conserve battery life when discussing the design and availability of actual components?", "answer": "Standard AA and AAA are bulky but the cheapest. Dynamo and dual charging with normal batteries and solar charging take up too much space. Solar charging is the second cheapest but not resistant to dropping. Also, Project Manager believed it would limit the market. Kinetic charging is small and portable but market research should be done first. No rechargeable battery options were available. The remote could have a standby mode and the lights behind the buttons would be switched off after five or ten seconds when not in use."}, {"id": 267, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion of the design of actual components regarding case material.", "answer": "Titanium is too expensive, would be easily dented and could only do a standard box shape whereas plastic could be made into different curved shapes. Marketing suggested making the basic mould out of plastic with a rubber cover, which would give a spongy feel and be a cheap way to change the look of the device. Industrial Designer, User Interface and Project Manager quickly jumped on board with this idea."}, {"id": 268, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion of the design of actual components regarding interface design.", "answer": "The team planned to do touch screen and there are two options to choose from, a bare PCB circuit board which could be in different colours and making a connection by the touch of fingers, and anti RSI rubber buttons with a LCD type of screen. Industrial Designer doubted whether a LCD screen is wanted as it would only be in black and white but have not thought out how to distinguish where to press if the bare PCB circuit board is used."}, {"id": 269, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What did the team think about Marketing's suggestion of a sort of stylus to press the touch screen on the device when discussing the design of actual components?", "answer": "Industrial Designer thought it would be lost easily and Marketing responded that it would be easy and cheap to replace or a pencil or pen could be used instead. User Interface pointed out that a person who switches channels often or uses a particular function will find it irritating to use and might spoil the touchpad more easily compared to a button. Industrial Designer agreed with User Interface."}, {"id": 270, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What did the team think of Marketing's idea of putting mirrors on the device when discussing the design of actual components?", "answer": "Project Manager believed that it would not appeal to men as they were unlikely to use it when watching television. Marketing responded by leaving this idea on the side, and Industrial Designer and Project Manager agreed. In the end, Marketing gave up on the idea."}, {"id": 271, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "Summarize the design and availability of actual components.", "answer": "The chip TA11835 and PCB board will be used in the device. The use of kinetic charging was agreed by the team with a standby mode to save battery. The case of the device would be in plastic and would have a changeable rubber cover. LCD screens will be adopted. The idea of adding a stylus or a mirror to the device was rejected."}, {"id": 272, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "What are the designs of normal remotes and how can the new remote be different from the normal ones?", "answer": "Mostly black and white colours, the normal ones are monotonous without consistency between models, and the buttons are very disorganized. The new remote will have a graphic user interface in the middle of the flip top and certain standard buttons with vibrant fruit colours. A newly developed speech recognition feature can be incorporated in the device and the idea was endorsed by customers. User Interface gave an example of using the feature - locating the remote. The idea was well-received by the team."}, {"id": 273, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'll wait until you're all um hooked up ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh good grief ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Put it on in that way ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oops ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Thanks . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Welcome back everybody , hope you've had fun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "After lunch . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right um this is our conceptual design meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {vocalsound} I think we're slightly ahead of ourselves from the last meeting ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah I was getting that impression as well ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I th I I think {disfmarker} yeah um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "This is where we talk about um properties , materials , user-interface and trend-watching ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Etcetera ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So I think we've touched on a few things to do with that already , but we'll just go over it . Um the minutes from the last time . Um we had a couple of um changes in our plans in that we couldn't use teletext , it wasn't gonna be a control for everything um and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow . Um we have decided on a {disfmarker} leaving out the voice recognition , we've decided on there being a flip design and um a different shape from what's normal . We were thinking a shell , but something along those lines , just a different shape from what's normal , um . You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we were gonna think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um and our market was going to be young , business , kind of range ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so shall we start with the first presentation ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shall I ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes if you feel {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . We just connect up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Thank you . There we go . Okay um so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching . Um {vocalsound} the methods we used to decide on uh current trends and so on , market trends , were that we did our traditional {disfmarker} uh our usual market research study uh with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most im uh w I'm sorry I'm slightly tongue-tied after lunch ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's okay {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "sorry Project Manager {vocalsound} . Um we decided on the most important aspect i uh required in a remote control device and we'll come to that later . So that was one of the first things we did . Also with our company um being forerunners in uh putting fashion into technology , we also looked at a fashion update um using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Uh so the general findings from that was uh in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel , rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls . They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative , and of course , as we predicted , that it should be easy to use . Now I should point out that the first of those findings , fancy look and feel , is the most important , is twice as important as the second , technologically innovative , which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use . So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important , but it's third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , um , now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group , um we found from our um consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there , that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes , shoes and furniture . So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be um a trend towards a spongy feel to materials , uh again in contrast to last year . So a lot of interesting feedback there , both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan . Be interesting to see what our design people make of that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay thank you very much . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "let's start from the inside and work our way out ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine . It's okay with me ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay . {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Unless anyone has any questions about that ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I don't think so , not yet ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Not yet ? 'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , yes , thank you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That screwed in ? {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I hate those little things"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "especially if you do them on too tight and you can't get the leverage on them to undo them ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} I know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'Kay , {gap} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um this is uh all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment . Okay , first uh the {disfmarker} Into the method . The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the T_V_ and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find . Um also in this study I've looked into the availability of some of the materials , 'cause some of the things that we looked at last time aren't {disfmarker} un unfortunately aren't available ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay . {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , findings , I've got my nice little picture there . This is uh the chip called the T_A_ double one eight three five which is what's used in pretty much every remote control 'cause it sends out standard signals , based on your input and um it's pretty much used for all all T_V_ remotes at the moment ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um and then we we're loo looking into battery options ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "There's um actually no rechargeable option available , so we {disfmarker} I saw the um the standard double A_ and triple A_ which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment , dynamo charging , I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Wa {vocalsound} can you explain that ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "people won't {disfmarker} it's it's basically like wind-up radio ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a {disfmarker} right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So you wind up your remote control before you use it ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "How {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what kind of {disfmarker} how l long can you get out of that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It might {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that's it for the night ? Or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , oh yeah I presu you wouldn't have to wind it for very long , but I don't I don't think it's really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options , like the the solar charging , 'cause most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get {disfmarker} when when you got T_V_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That doesn't count though does it ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Does does light charge as as sunlight does ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I thought it was U_V_ like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Artificial light ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is it ? Alright i"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Any , any {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Has to be solar ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep . Regarding those sizes , which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also , so maybe a standard triple A_ might take lesser space or {disfmarker} and dynamo might take more space ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah it would the d yeah the dynamo would take more space 'cause you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm pretty sure that solar is from the sun ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh , I don't think it counts electric lights"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Artificial light , no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "no , but I mean not many {disfmarker} you don't want to limit your market ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "That's going to {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean people who live in basement flats there's not that many people , but there are people ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I know ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "different parts of the world too , if we're if we're marketing internationally ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and most people most people also watch T_V_ in the in the night anyway ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Night ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm , but then it would be charging through the day , I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you've got it charged for the evening ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But I I think I think the the next one's the best anyway ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah I've seen {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you d you don't even notice it . I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you'd be doing all the time would would charge it up , I don't think you'd ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And are these like uh {disfmarker} what are the life of the kinetic battery , it like it runs for long time ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um yeah it's {disfmarker} it charges into um some form of {disfmarker} it's a smaller cell which it charges into and uh the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause they use them quite frequently in watches ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And that'll that would l would last for um well I do I d I'm not entirely sure how long it would last but I've never seen one run out {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "We c"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then if you think about a watch , it's on your wrist so it's on your whole bod it's on your body the whole time"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so you're walking around , you're doing things , it is moving a lot of the time . If you'd {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean you switch the T_V_ on , then you put it on the side , then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah but then again"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Is it really gonna be enough ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I think it is because if you think about it , the watch , although it's only a tiny amount it's it's um {vocalsound} it's always moving for the whole day and they don't run out over night when you leave them on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And th for the same the same reason , you're only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you're finished with it"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So it's not {disfmarker} the draw on it isn't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and you put it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "no no I do I don't think the the draw on it would be {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Could I just ask {disfmarker} referring back to solar charging , is that compatible with um standard batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I mean , could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Ye yeah I think I th uh g y you could have a dual um power thing"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "or the two things not compatible ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like a dual kind of ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they {disfmarker} because , if you lie {gap} {disfmarker} on a calculator they they're qui they're quite big and they all they all look i identical ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . So that affects the exterior design ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Solar would be slightly {gap} expensives ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Expensive as well . What kind of price are we looking at for {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "They're they're expensive , they don't {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's twelve point f"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the normal batteries would be the cheapest I'd presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones , um but the {disfmarker} It's i I think they're not very resistant to dropping ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Solar ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause if you drop stuff {disfmarker} yeah if you if you have y"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they're not designed {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the size you'd need to charge a remote wouldn't be that big but I mean if {disfmarker} remotes always get thrown around and stuff , so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Practical-wise okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Y I think {disfmarker} yeah , practically . I mean calculators you don't really throw around a lot {vocalsound} whereas remotes you do ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "You do get a bit of wear"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "they can t"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but don't calculators have a battery in them as well ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah they do , they {disfmarker} yeah they've got dual things , but they're {disfmarker} the batteries are smaller I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Another question is like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Again it de"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sorry . W w which one would last the longest , because we don't want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "A remote control , like ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "W m yeah"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so we have to s look at the life also ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so the {disfmarker} Yeah the the s if you if you had something du uh using the standard batteries and the solar charging , um , I don't think you'd {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} it would d well you know how long the standard double A_s would last in {disfmarker} or triple A_s would last ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think i I think it would , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "i {vocalsound} it's not gonna add anything , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , can we add in uh an attachment to closing feature ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we think about that ? 'Cause if we're doing the kinetic thing and it's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Shouldn't we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well add it in to think about um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "right , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "because , where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people don't do kind of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we're doing something original and different um but if you wore it if it's something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less , you you wouldn't lose it so much ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "But then maybe that's looking at someone who's just sitting on their own rather than"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "the eternal battle for control of the controls ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It's not something that's come up in any of our uh focus groups and market research ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's not a thing that people are looking for"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "when we threw it open to the field yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But it's something to put on the side to think about maybe ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , right ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay , well I'll move on ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , my second part of my findings uh the mo most current remotes use this silicone uh P_C_B_ board which {disfmarker} pr printed circuit board , which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button , it'll connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two uh different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then uh gets translated by the chip into a code and then it's fired out of this L_E_D_ in the sequence of l on and off bursts ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we {disfmarker} what kind of size , does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well well this {disfmarker} the thi the thing about is um they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it's it's simply spaced like that so you can have {disfmarker} fit the n the size of the nine buttons in . If you if you see how thin the tracks are , you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "if you if you wanted to but um the {disfmarker} there is an option to do to do it like that , or you could have some sort of array of switches which I'll speak about in the next bit"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so that {disfmarker} And then to {disfmarker} uh yeah , so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used . Now what I was thinking about that was {disfmarker} 'cause sometimes when y when you have these things , they've got little lights on behind the buttons , so you can see what all the buttons are , like on a mobile phone , they do it more often than on a than on a T_V_ remote ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and um after like five or ten seconds of not being used I'd have that turned off , if we decided to go for buttons that could light up ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , the case material , I've a been sent what the factory can actually give us , the {disfmarker} there's the plastic which I think we were gonna go for anyway as the main case {disfmarker} case housing"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the the main problems with the {disfmarker} well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical . Titanium um very expensive just to process ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "which to make it is expensive , and rubber , well you're saying that people like this uh spongy feel this year , so perhaps uh some something made of rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I was thinking more of the buttons , because the buttons which they've they've said that they've they've put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it's meant to be anti R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm no I'm not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that's what they said . Um the problem with the casing is that uh there's quite {vocalsound} um there's quite a few design restrictions that they've got on the shape of the case . If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape , whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more {disfmarker} they can they can do sort of curved shapes . But whether whether or not {disfmarker} because we'd have it in two separate units"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Second thing is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Hinged , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "for the flip phone ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah and second question is like , a mobile you can change the cover , you call it a skin or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So in this case if you're looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green , parrot green to chilli red or something like that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So is that feature available in like uh titanium ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I th"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or it's like only specific to plastic or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh . Yeah in in titanium I don't I don't think it would be available at all really , the ju just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it w well you could make it available in the titanium , it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it , because of the expense of how much titanium is is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "it's light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall . I've got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Rubber , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that would give the spongy feel , that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you can peel them off yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic , the fascia that comes off would be the rubber ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Like a rubber sleeve almost , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Something like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like those pens that you get with the grip , that you can you can pull that off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That could be a good idea ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It could {disfmarker} it would be comfortable to hold on also ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "T"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well that's been really popular with mobile phones so I don't see why not ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Also the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons , the {disfmarker} I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Now what I was saying before about instead of having {disfmarker} you could have just a bare P_C_B_ circuit board and I'm sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it'd make the connection over {disfmarker} if you had them close enough , that would be one option . Um the second option th they offer rubber buttons , but I thought that an L_C_D_ type of screen {disfmarker} 'cause one they're incredibly thin um and don't take up much space , two they {disfmarker} you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sorry I didn't get the last part , you're talking of {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "display . Uh what what {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just what you said I I didn't get the uh meaning of it completely , you're saying like {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh on the on the L_C_D_ screen you could {disfmarker} becau you could fit it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "the problem with it basically is that it's flat and so you can't do lots of curve {disfmarker} curved things with it ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but um you can {disfmarker} you wouldn't have {disfmarker} with the L_C_D_ you'd have the wires coming off , you wouldn't have that with the with the L_C_D_ , you'd only have that with the printed circuit board ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "With {disfmarker} W also with the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I don't {disfmarker} s sorry to interrupt , I don't see why the curved thing is a problem , if we for example had a shell , once we open that {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh it would be flat inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You could have a flat screen inside , yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "yeah , so it'd be f yeah , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I'm just wondering whether we want an L_C_D_ screen inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Have I misunderstood you ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "It wouldn't be like full colour , it would just be black and white ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but there'd be touch touch buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so you wouldn't be pressing down on 'em , w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is anti-R_S_I_ ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think it would be good to have a contrast between , if the whole thing is gonna be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is rubber . Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Now how would you distinguish , if you had it bare , how would you distinguish where you had to press , I mean {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I hadn't I hadn't really thought of that to be honest ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I just had another idea , I don't know if it helps with that , but just to do with the R_S_I_ . {vocalsound} Is it possible , just as an option , when we open it up , people can use their fingers to press the button , or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah you could , you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Like one of the palm pop thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I I think they could get a bit easily lost ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Absolutely , f for somebody who {gap} very often , if he would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause I had {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It would have to be attached ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They're easy to replace as well , cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a {gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and he might spoil the touch-pad very fast compared to a button like , if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah just a thought {disfmarker} they wouldn't actually need one and they could use anything they've got , couldn't they ? A pencil or a pen , so they wouldn't really need a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , we'll talk about that {disfmarker} so if you finish your {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah that's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and we'll come back to that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "yeah that {disfmarker} that's the end of m my {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "That's you , right okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And just one small question before like you are {gap} , regarding the circuit , since we are hav having a flip-top , we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing , so we can divide the circuit like you know ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh yeah . Yeah yeah that that would be fairly simple ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you'd you'd actually have two separate {disfmarker} you'd have two separate circuit boards but they'd be joined by wires or like some cabling between them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "'cause in the in the actual flip bit you'd have some linking ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I'll just raise another point while it occurs to me , it kind of applies to both our designers here , so I'm not sure how it would fit in ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "If we flip open , now you know how you've got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display , you seen those ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And they kind of respond to the turn of your body . Is it possible that when we open our flip-top shell it's a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display {disfmarker} th uh the remote control display thing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "We're marketing to guys as much as we are to women ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "They don't look at themselves ? Just a thought ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well it's a remote control , you were sitting watching T_V_ are you gonna want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T_ {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah . I know what you mean , it's with us using the ideas for a mobile ph {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "it's with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kinda got sidetracked onto that I think , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , no , no ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap} trying to think of other features we can build in that wouldn't cost too much"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "but {gap} maybe we'll leave that one on the side ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean you can {disfmarker} you could do it , you could have a {disfmarker} 'cause if you if you just put the full charge through an L_C_D_ display it'll completely blank it out ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I don't know if you could get any mirror effect on it , I'm not sure about {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Oh I think {gap} forget about the mirror"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "that was just a very quick passing thought yeah {vocalsound} ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , uh would like to share something which I did here . First thing is uh basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting , especially from the marketing and industrial design , to check on the customer needs and feasibility . Second is we checked into competitors , the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here . So y you generally see there's not much of variety and like marketing team said uh , people need trendy , they are bored of black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So you generally see rectangular shape , very monotonous kind of designs here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And uh second thing is there's too much of confusion here . No particular remote is standard ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like , some some people have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Here you see this ? This is on a {disfmarker} I I I found th that uh only common feature is the ch uh channel control and uh volume control , rest other buttons , they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay , and second as already discussed with William , we are going to have m maybe a G_ G_U_I_ interface in the f in the middle of the flip-top"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and g graphic user interface"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry what does that stand for ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Which means {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "basically which is what we d do in computer , have icons or touch pad or whatever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "which is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "If you if {disfmarker} yeah if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this L_C_D_ screen ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Like you have on a l uh {disfmarker} icons or something y you have {disfmarker} is a good example of G_U_I_ graphic user interface ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So basically {gap} not point or click {gap} {disfmarker} Press any particular device , he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device , that means the use of button . So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we are having a combination of boards , so f on the s simpler board , on the top we have this button , rubber buttons , to keep frequently changing the channels ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "'Cause if you're thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press , just like a mobile phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No you'd hold it {disfmarker} you don't {disfmarker} if you flip it open then you'd be {disfmarker} Wouldn't you ? Isn't that the idea ? You us if we just use the shell as an example again , you open that , you've got your L_C_D_ display there and you've got the buttons there so you're holding it in the palm of your hand , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . That's what I was just saying ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah but you can do it with your thumb li"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then have the and then have the L_C_D_ at the top"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and then be able to touch that for the {vocalsound} other controls ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay and you mean to the {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so have the um the volume and the programme , things like that ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And the lower distance ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "on the lower side ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Oh f perfect ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So the findings are too many cluttered buttons . Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained , example the volume and channel control buttons . All are confusing and in inconsistent . Okay we had a latest finding of voice recognition , there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature . We have to check into the {disfmarker} for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it {disfmarker} this at a low cost , but for {disfmarker} like we had g um s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So it could be like , where is the remote , and the remote answers I am here ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "and if this can be incorporated this would be more uh {disfmarker} you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this . My personal preferences would be like , as already {gap} uh marketing department , they want something to do with fruit so I wouldn't say the design should be like a fruit , but yeah we can take inspiration from fruit colours , like the vibrant colours , uh red chilli uh"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have , like for example , i if you see the previous slide uh"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , yeah we {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern , here , so we we we would not change h that particular pattern"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I can't see that , is that play and stop and things ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "This is central one , the one you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Or is that volume and channel ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "yeah volume and channel . So keep that m {disfmarker} that standardised because that's the most common feature across all models , if you look at all the models , it's here . This and voice recognition ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Right . Okay . Um I'm not sure how long we've got left , but we need to make a decision about um the things we've discussed . So , we agree on {disfmarker} Do we agree on the battery ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The kinetic ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Kinetic ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , that means that there's no function for li the port , you know that it sits in , then pressing the button then having {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah I think {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's a bi i it's like a g it's a gadget , it's a"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean if {disfmarker} Yeah it is it is qui it's quite a cool feature to have"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "selling point ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and also if they've got it {disfmarker} if they've got these parts already in stock , then it won't be cheap to re-manufacture them ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "uh or it will be cheap sorry to re-manufacture them . So do you reckon that's a good idea that , where's the remote , I'm here thing ? I think that would be quite fun ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it's going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think pretty much we've used cheap {disfmarker} relatively cheap and simple things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The L_C_D_'s not cheap ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah to s th well it's it's not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour 'cause if we've just got a black and white one ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I mean they use them in calculators so ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Maybe we could start with the black and white ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "That that way we could upgrade later {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you could {disfmarker} yeah . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , we talked about kinetic charging ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "we've deci seem to have decided on that , did we decide on double A_ or triple A_ batteries ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well you cou um ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Do you want like a back-up ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "No , one of the decisions we had to make was whether we had double A_ or triple A_ batteries 'cause they've still got to be charged this way haven't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "K no the kinetic ones come come with um a sort of w watch {disfmarker} a battery that goes in a watch ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "I oh I see . Right , okay , got you ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So it's a lot smaller , so it would {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Got you on that okay , didn't realise ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , okay so we've got battery . The inside components is pretty standardised across the board isn't it ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So there's not a {disfmarker} really a decision to be made there , um . The buttons {disfmarker} what did you give us as our {disfmarker} The bare-board L_C_D_ or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well I think were {disfmarker} we're going for the L_C_D_ on that one , on the buttons ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "on the on the on on the top one we're gonna"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "On the top one okay you've got the touch"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{disfmarker} yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay and then {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "On the bottom we were gonna have the rubber , the rubber ones , the anti-R_S_I_ ones ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Sorry could you repeat that last part ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um , okay on {disfmarker} we've got the flip the flip-screen , the top one is gonna be the L_C_D_ and the bottom one is gonna be the rubberised buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "L_C_D_ screen . Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for the {disfmarker} sorry ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No , it's fine ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the body design I think plastic , uh w yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Plastic ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "we could use the body ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For the inside ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "for the inside and uh rubber as a padding or for the grip , something like to add to the design ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "so we decided on a rubber casing for the plastic shell , a variety of designs ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Plast right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Oh I think so , I think so ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "okay . and it is just uh {disfmarker} although it's rubberised and spongy , apart from that we're just going to go for sort of vegetable and fruit colours , we're not gonna try and make it actually a vegetable or fruit design or anything else , like a shell that we discussed ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm no ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No I think I {vocalsound} {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "just go for the colours ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we don't wanna be tacky if we've got a kind of different shape anyway"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um the fact {disfmarker} the m the material that we would be using would be cheap , so we could make it red , we could make it um psychedelic , you know , we could make it black and white zebra stripes ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but that's not really what we're focusing on , what we're focusing on is the m you know {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "The feel ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yes . So we could just pick anything ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Kay . Mm-hmm . Is that going to be {disfmarker} this image I've got in my head of something kind of shaped like that , maybe about that size , made of plastic , fits into the palm of the hand , rubberised cover that's spongy . Is that really going to fit fancy look and feel which was the major thing that people wanted , market research ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh I {disfmarker} it's different ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's just different"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that fancy {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "it's just different from everything else and I mean , I'm trying to imagine um clean looking houses ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sort of beige and black"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um so you either want something that goes with that , which is what's on the market anyway ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "or you want something that contrasts as {vocalsound} you know like you get clocks now that are more of a talking point than an actual clock because they're so interesting and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah . I'm just kind of pushing at that to see if you came out with anything else , but I mean I totally agree . We looked at those remotes , I mean they are kind of anonymous , very similar looking things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "This would definitely be different enough , I just wondered if anybody could come up with something even more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And you would just have an {disfmarker} across the b you would have so many different options that you could do , you could have um a plain black one , you could have sparkly pink glittery ones for your little {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Well the thing is the rubberised covers are going to be s relatively cheap to produce , that if in a year's time we we get feedback from the design fairs that show something else is coming {disfmarker} I mean it's so easy for us to just produce that and it can be slipped on ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "And ones tha ones that have rubbery spikes {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "which is another beauty of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "y you know , you could just go so far with it ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You can you can just {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Acupressure , you could talk of acupressures ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "like a puffer fish , you could just , you could take it wherever ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think that's quite a flexible thing ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And finally the body should be retouchable , may maybe ch you can change the body or the case {disfmarker} casing {disfmarker} the case outside ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "it should be moulded {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} the design in such a way you can change it every time ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , yeah j with these rubber these rubberised ca"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "not the actual uh plastic outside case , just the rubber thing that goes round the outside ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay . The rubber ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah . Okay we've got five minutes , {vocalsound} um , or that might've been up for a while ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm , so can I just recap uh Sarah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} for the decisions that we've made , kinetic charging , the watch-type batteries , um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ display on th the top side of the flip top , rubberised buttons on the bottom side , we're gonna use fruit and vegetable colours for the rubber cover , the case itself is plastic . That's how far we've got , what else do we have to add to our decisions here ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine , uh we were talking of voice recognition also"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "because that {disfmarker} we are not {gap} for how to look it uh remote control if it's lost ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So , are we looking at voice {gap} ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yes , it was just , there was just a cost issue with that , but it's a good idea we just need to check on the cost ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or maybe like uh William was suggesting in the last thing some devices you put on key chains ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "is that right ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For l yeah , the whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Oh yeah , yeah the whistle ones , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can {disfmarker} if financially voice recognition is not feasible we could go for a whistle ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And incorporating the company logo ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Have you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh sorry I didn't mention this , but we'll be incorporating in the design ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "'Cause I took it from the feedback you gave in the last meeting from y from y your report , it's not just a case of having a little R_R_ hidden somewhere , they do want it to be obvious that it's our product"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well they do ,"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "don't they ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "but I think we can {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Since it's the only one of its kind on the market it's obviously gonna be ours ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "well it is , it is , I think you just address that with um advertising ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um , you associate the name with the individual product that it is"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and that does the work for you ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Obviously it'll have a logo on it just like everything , but everything else has a logo on it . The point is that it's got to stand out somehow differently but I think it does , without that"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I'm not worried about that ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Did we {disfmarker} I know at the last meeting we spoke about a beeper , I think that was you talked about a beeper for a location , have we just rejected that in favour of voice recognition then ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Depending on how i {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah , depending on the expense of it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I mean we've got this memo saying that it's something that the company's looking into , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And they've got in stock , so yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um that seems to make sense , but if it turns out that it's hugely expensive we'd have to cut down somewhere else , then it's worth thinking about . But I think we'll find out more about cost afterwards ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Right I'm going to wrap it up there ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Fine ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I got a end meeting now message on my mo"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Did it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so . Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Again a questionnaire huh ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I think we've probably got {disfmarker} it says , closing we have forty minutes"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "You got to go through ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "so I um think we've probably got about that time before we come back ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's either that or we only had forty minutes to discuss what we just discussed and don't know how long that took {gap} ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "I think we are pretty going in a clear direction now ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Is everyone happy ? {vocalsound} Okay ."}], "query": "How can the cost be cut down if the speech recognition feature is adopted?", "answer": "Industrial Designer said that it would be cheaper to re-manufacture if these parts were already in stock. Project Manager pointed out that the other materials used were relatively cheap and simple. Though the LCD would be expensive, it would be cheaper with black and white than full colour so User Interface suggested that they could start off with black and white and upgrade later."}, {"id": 274, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "Summarize the whole meeting.", "answer": "This is the kick-off meeting of the new television remote control project. The team got acquainted with each other and Project Manager described the scope of the project. Industrial Designer claimed that he could support any practical ideas technically and proposed that they could make an interoperable remote control. User Interface agreed and pointed out that people changed the state of the TV by pressing the button. Then he proposed that people should be able to feel the buttons without having to look at them and the buttons should be visible in dark. In terms of the way to connect the remote control to the TV, Industrial Designer suggested that infrared could be substituted by Bluetooth."}, {"id": 275, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "Summarize the discussion about remote control functions.", "answer": "Industrial Designer proposed that a modern remote control should control a diverse subset of equipment. User Interface agreed and revealed that the function of the remote control is to change the state of the TV, which could be realized by pressing the button."}, {"id": 276, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "What did User Interface think about remote control functions?", "answer": "User Interface agreed with Industrial Designer and supposed that the remote control could be interoperable. That is to say, it could be a universal remote control that fits every device. He also revealed that the function of the remote control was to change the state of the TV and this could be realized by pressing the button."}, {"id": 277, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer think about remote control functions?", "answer": "Industrial Designer believed that a modern remote control should control a diverse subset of equipment. That means, one remote control should control one or more pieces of equipment."}, {"id": 278, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "What did the group discuss about the connection of remote control and TV?", "answer": "Industrial Designer pointed out that infrared connection is old-fashioned so they should choose a novel one, such as Bluetooth. Project Manager added that the device should be rechargeable and not consume too much power."}, {"id": 279, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "What did Industrial Designer suggest when discussing the connection of remote control and TV?", "answer": "Industrial Designer proposed to change the way how the remote control and the TV communicate with each other as the infrared connection was not hot technical and suggested using Bluetooth."}, {"id": 280, "transcript": [{"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "G good morning ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Good morning , Flores . Marketing Expert ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Oh yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Right ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Are you ready ? You should put the laptop uh right into the square ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "For i for the cameras , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "For the cameras Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Good morning , Sebastian ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Good morning , {vocalsound} Mister P_M_ ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} I'm fine ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} How are you today ? How was your business trip to Boston ? {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um well , actually I didn't go , didn't feel like it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Geez ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So {disfmarker} Do you want to open it as read-only ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I guess I should close it here ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have the same message of uh Windows cannot um"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{gap}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "sen oh stand-by . Close the the window ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , the waiting is for our Marketing Expert , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So {disfmarker} That's right . Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um project kick-off ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Is there a schedule for this meeting ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , there is actually . Um I will li list the agenda for today . For this meeting . Good morning , Ruud ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Good morning . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} Uh it's important um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I shall close the door ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah , great . It's important that the laptops are um exactly on the square , um for the cameras . Okay . Okay . Um we're here to develop uh a new product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um I'm sure you've had a mail from our account manager about it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} and um this is the first meeting to to generate some uh uh some ideas about it . Um you are here in a specific role . Uh Ruud is here as the Marketing Expert , Roo is here as the User Interface Designer and Sebastian is here uh in the role of Industrial Designer . Is that correct ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's correct ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} we're going to do um uh uh a little tool training uh for the tools we are going to use uh during uh the meetings we are going to have here . Um then I will tell you a little bit about my idea of the project plan , uh and we will have a discussion . Uh this meeting should take no more than twenty five minutes , so we should keep that in mind ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Um is there any room for a little presentation ? Uh maybe during the discussion uh section ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "There is ? Yeah , there is ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} No problem ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um okay , this new product we are are g are going to develop , um it's a remote control , a television remote control . Um and first of all it should be original , it should be trendy and user-friendly . Those are kind of easy um uh uh goals , um and I'm sure we can find more goals for the for the product we are going to develop . {vocalsound} Um we will discuss uh later on more ideas about uh how the remote should look and how it sh it should function and all those kind of things ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "The market , we should have a look at the market . Um {vocalsound} we are going to use a a pred a project method uh during uh this development , um which consists of three different design stages . Uh the functional design , the conceptual design and the detailed design , um all of these stages um um mean that we do some individual work , prepare , and then uh meet to discuss our uh uh the {gap} {disfmarker} the the progressions , yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Progressions . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um the first stage , the functional design um we are going to search for the user requirements , and we will um make a specific {disfmarker} uh specification of that . Um {vocalsound} the second is the technical functional design , um what effect should the remote have ? Well in this case control t the the television I think ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's for the vision . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um and the last one is the working design . How exactly does it work in the technical sense . Um the other design stages , uh we will discuss that later . So we'll kop it {disfmarker} keep it with the functional design . {vocalsound} Okay , um before we think about remote control we will um work with some of the tools we have uh here . Um as you see now I can give a presentation . {vocalsound} Um it's also possible to use this one as well . You can uh uh display pr uh two presentations if you want to . Um {vocalsound} to um presentate , to show us uh a file you'll need to uh place it in your project documents folder , which is on your desktop , at least it should be . Um then we have this electronic white-board system . {vocalsound} Um yeah , I will show that now . Um you can draw on the board using this pen . There are little um uh"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Sensors ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "sensors , so do not grab it here , but a lit more a little bit more to the uh to the end . Um well , it {disfmarker} it's on the um eraser now , so we click the pen button . Okay , so not too fast writing . Um {vocalsound} you can insert a new um slide or or white-board uh uh file um by either using the insert function or by clicking the next button or the blank button . It's quite the same . Um all our um whi um uh SMARTboard um notes should be kept in the same file . So do not m make a new file . Just use this one uh during the day . {vocalsound} Um you can use the eraser to make something go away ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But we all use the same white-board file"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So we can work together on it while we're {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "or should we only use it in the in the meetings ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , in the meetings , only in the meetings ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It's really like like a regu regular whiteboard ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , alright . Yep ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um you can choose the format , um {disfmarker} sorry . Uh {disfmarker} Let me see . Um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess it's maybe because I'm not s uh pen selected . Yep . Current colour , you can choose another colour . And um for example black , and you c I can choose the line width . Um so now I d have a different line width and uh colour . Okay . Quite easy , if you uh do have any questions , just c ask me . Um {vocalsound} to um {disfmarker} oh well , I'm {disfmarker} I wrote down the documents uh should be in the project documents folder if you want to uh discuss it with us . Um as a little training {vocalsound} um I will ask Ruud first to draw uh uh your own animal on a new slide uh with uh a different colour and a different line width than the one uh now selected . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Okay . Um green ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "An animal . Okay . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh a wee rabbit ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's a bunny . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "A rabbit . Okay , well great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Alright ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Roo , could you do the same please ? But a different animal with a different colour and a different line width ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But of course , Flores ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Blank ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Sebastian is thinking about the animal ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I'm just uh guessing what should be my favourite animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I'm think about it too . {vocalsound} Format {gap} . Well , it looked more than a bunny than a cat , but {vocalsound} it works ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I'll give it a try . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "It it should be a cat ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Mm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} I'm guessing a horse ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Very good . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "With a very small {vocalsound} legs . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} I was very good in drawing . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You should feed that uh that animal . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I guess you uh get the idea . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yes , okay . {vocalsound} Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Beautiful ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so um you can use this at any time during the presentation if you want to . Um any questions {disfmarker} well , just just let me know . Um okay , back to our project . Um {vocalsound} the remote control we are going to develop um will have a selling price of about twenty five Euros . Uh the profit we are looking for for this product is fifty million Euros , which is quite a number . {vocalsound} Um"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "we uh we will focus this internationally , so the product will be sold um , if there is market uh interest , uh in in more than one country . And um the production costs should not be more than uh twelve Euro fifty , so we should keep that in mind by uh w w during the development , {vocalsound} um because uh , well , those are important numbers . Um then the discussion , maybe the time for Sebastian to show his presentation ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , um I have some technical uh issues which I would like to present to you uh before we start the discussion , because uh there might be some uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Limitations ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "influations influences ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , great ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um first about my role , role of the Industrial Designer . I would like to think about uh the implementation of uh of things , and the technical possibilities and impossibilities . So if someone of you comes up with uh ideas , uh I'll try to translate them in technical functions , but uh there might be some impossibilities . So that's one . {vocalsound} Uh I also will propose some uh um uh some implementations for that , but {disfmarker} well , these are quite the same . Sorry about that . Um and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I have some uh initial ideas about some things um which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming uh discussion . One thing about uh interopera operability . Um I think a modern uh remote control should uh control a device {disfmarker} diverse subset of equipment . Uh for instance , uh D_V_D_ players , cell phones , video and audio equipment . So one re uh one remote control for all your equipment ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for a cell phone ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , okay . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I think it could come in handy . We should discuss that . Um and we should think about the way how these things uh should communicate with each other . We're not uh living in the uh nineteen eighties anymore , so infrared is not uh"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "is not really uh hot uh technical stuff anymore . But you should uh think about the things like uh Bluetooth ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah , but the infrared , it's uh , well , a little bit old-fashioned , if you would call it like that ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But all the T_V_s are uh equipped with infrared , so"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "But it's cost-effective . Yes . Mm-hmm . Well , not all , not all ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "y you you can {disfmarker} Most of them ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's the point ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Or you shou sh use a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Maybe , but that's uh something we should discuss"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and uh about every everybody should think about it . So that's just my role , I'll just uh give you uh everybody some technical input , and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what uh the product should be and how it should look ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but take these things into account when you start the discussion ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so the the main por uh the main points you are uh telling us are focus on the inter uh operability ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "and {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "so one thing uh one remote control should uh control one or more uh pieces of equipment ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , and and uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "and the way of communicating with these equipments ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay , good ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} that was your presentation ? Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "That's it ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um {vocalsound} okay . Great . Um {vocalsound} I'll go back to my own presentation . Um {disfmarker} Mm . Okay . Um I I do think it's time now to to discuss uh mm some things ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um Sebastian told us a few things about the technical implemen uh implications . Um there are other things like um {vocalsound} how to make it trendy , which is I think uh um most uh Ru uh Ruud's uh role . Um the way how it should be controlled by the user , which is uh Roo uh r uh during this part . Um so let's start with you ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "H how do you think the remote should um function for the user ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , I had a few uh things in mind . Um well , the interoperability , just like uh Sebastian said , um the remote should work on different T_V_s or even different uh um {disfmarker} Yeah uh , what is it , devices ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yep ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um so i i I think it's a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in uh a store ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , I think it should be something like that ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It's not for uh for uh for uh Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , so we're we're going business to consumer ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "right ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "not {disfmarker} we're we're {disfmarker} it's not a {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I do I don't know that . It's no I have uh {disfmarker} don't have the information for it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "We're not developing this product for a specific vendor , are we ?"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "No . No ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "No , okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "we're just developing this product , and we want to sell it to a very broad uh public , so it should fit to every device ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh Ruud , y do you agree ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah , I think I think they're right , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well , the techni fu technical function uh {gap} {disfmarker} what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the T_V_ . That's just the basic f technical function ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that was my {disfmarker} really my part for uh this session . Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "So is that ease of use or uh is that more like um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Well , that's just the fu the technical function is {vocalsound} pure what should the remote control do , wh what is his task uh as an uh as an uh device ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "It just should change the T_V_'s state ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So that's it . Um but furthermore {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "And you you see uh the buttons as a as a means of doing this ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Yeah , with buttons ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Or are there any o other controls ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , or maybe you want a touch-screen or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Are there only {disfmarker} any other cont Well , {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I've seen these remote controls with uh this little stick uh which you can move forward , sidewords ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh-huh ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "You know these things . And um it's very easy for a user to to switch {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "They're very vu vulnerable ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "w yes ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "to to switch b uh between uh channels or uh change uh between tracks on a on a C_D_ , on on a chapters , you know , on a D_V_D_ player . So maybe that's an idea ,"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And for other user interface I had um , well , it's more industrial thing . Uh point at a T_V_ , I think it's it's quite disturbing when you always have to point directly to the T_V_ ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "so you must {vocalsound} point everywhere , so maybe infrared is {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Maybe not even pointed . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , just don't even point it , so in that case infrared should uh maybe uh be restriction to that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Uh is that uh {disfmarker} are there restriction for the range , the operating range too ? So when you're not able to point at the device um the range is very limited ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , if you g if you go to radio or or {disfmarker} yeah . For T_V_ , you're always in in the neighbourhood of a T_V_ , so I don't think think the range should be a problem to that ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "but if you want to uh get it working with a radio , and you're in {disfmarker} outside your garden with just one uh speaker , then maybe the range should be uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , gentlemen , um uh just a reminder , we d we have five minutes left for this meeting"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Two more things ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Um You should able to feel the buttons without uh it mis um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have to know what you do without looking at the buttons , so it should be as user interface um for feeling should be uh good to understand ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , s yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You must feel the buttons for volume or whatever , I think ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "And of course you don't always know where all buttons are , so it should be visible al um {vocalsound} in dark too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "So when it's dark {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Those are two really uh user interface {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Uh I'll write down glow in the dark . Is tha {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . {gap} {disfmarker} That's perfect . {vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um uh I just want to hear uh Ruud's um input for this meeting ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Do do you {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um do you have anything already w um ab idea about how the market uh will respond to the {disfmarker} such a product ? Or what we should take um in account when developing such a product ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh I think most most things have already been said , like uh control multiple devices ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "And uh , yeah , infrared might be an issue ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Because ?"}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Uh well , he said about n abo what he said about pointing ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "But uh lots of devices already use infrared . So {disfmarker} we'll probably have to implement that ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Okay . Okay , Sebastian , did you have any other ideas ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um well yes , I had , uh about three minutes ago ,"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "but I've seem to forget them {disfmarker} {vocalsound} forgot them . Um {disfmarker} oh yes , I remember . Um you said something about visibility in the dark ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um uh would it be nice for a user to have display on this uh remote control , on which you can see functions ? Which makes it easier to operate it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . Well , maybe I um {disfmarker} but it it can be quite simple ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "I I don't know ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "you can just have white buttons with a black mark on it ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The uh the the digits in black ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Uh then it's already visible in dark . So it it don't have to be a lightning or or a fancy"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{disfmarker} well , it can be for design , of course ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah , yeah , okay , because because we wa we want to develop a trendy product . So {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Yes , but there's a cost limitation too ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ,"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , that's more {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "twelve Euro fifty , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So that's a big problem , I think . I think the the financial part of this project uh implicates that it's not going to be a high high-end product ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "The cost price is very low ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Just remind something ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "The digits of uh the the painting on the buttons should not fade ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , okay ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "You have a m uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay . Very good point . Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Always have s the soft buttons , always uh clear the the the paint on it . The marks ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay , um I ha I have one point f um which which comes in mind now . Um uh d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "um or it should not consume too much um power . Because it's very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s uh uh every other week ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} So um maybe we could um for example uh only light the buttons that are um uh applicable at that moment or {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But um {disfmarker} Necessary , yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "yeah . I dunno , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's more Sebastian's uh um {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah . But then Bluetooth uh might be problem ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Hmm ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "'Cause I think Bluetooth uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} It's use uh a lot of uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Well does it ?"}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Yeah , I know it from the cell phone ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "well {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "I'm not sure . Uh {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Well , cell phones have uh integrated Bluetooth also and , well , it's {disfmarker} it seems to work uh quite okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Yeah ."}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "So uh technically it will be possible ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "But you can't you can't use Bluetooth all the time , twenty four hours a day ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Okay . Gentlemen , I'm afraid we do not have any more time ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Does it {disfmarker}"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "No , you cannot ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "{vocalsound} It's over ?"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Marketing", "content": "{vocalsound}"}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "Um"}, {"speaker": "Industrial Designer", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "{vocalsound} so we will go back to our own uh work . Um next meeting starts in thirty minutes and um , well , you know your o your individual actions or your personal coach will probably email you about th it . Um so this was it ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Okay ."}, {"speaker": "Project Manager", "content": "See you in thirty minutes ."}, {"speaker": "User Interface", "content": "Great ."}], "query": "Why did User Interface disagree to use Bluetooth in the discussion of connection of remote control and TV?", "answer": "Project Manager believed that remote control should not consume too much power. Therefore, as the cellphone would consume power very quickly when the Bluetooth was on, User Interface was concerned that it might be a problem."}]